Here's why is impossible to be "bored" or craving artificial stimulation if you Awake

[UnbornTao]

On 8/22/2023 at 0:06 AM, Carl-Richard said:

I think very few people become enlightened without ever having engaged with various technologies or tools that were available. Even Sadhguru meditated regularly in his early years, even though his first awakening was rather spontaneous. Besides, whatever you're providing here in this conversation can be thought of as a tool as well. Science is just one way to provide better tools over time.

What is a tool for?

Edited August 24, 2023 by UnbornTao

[integral]

2 hours ago, Osaid said:

No, social anxiety legitimately stops existing forever. You can't perceive it anymore.

Pain is different, though. There is pain, because pain is an experience, not thought. Didn't deny this.

Anxiety is very much an experience. Isnt that obvious? It can be induced biologically like pain by eating something unpleasant for example. Social anxiety is induced in a complex way with thought stories so I get why your saying it cant show up. Even so if it did show up like that it would be like watching a movie about social anxiety. It happens then it passes. In and out. All is experience, even thought stories. I guess your saying anxiety is a pain that is interpreted by the ego thought stories into fear/anxiety.

Anxiety can also happen vai a pre-conditioned response with out any thought stories.

How is playing chess different when enlightened? Do you stop thinking and automatically find an answer? No you experience a thinking thought story state of navigating a chess board. Thinking and thoughts arising are experiences. Even if you dont identify with the thoughts they still can induce feelings and even if you dont identify with does feelings you still experience them. The entire ego game is an experience that is automatically arising in normie states, you can be aware of it or not, if your aware then your in a normie enlightened state lol

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Disappearing ego is just realizing that your experience doesn't exist in thoughts. Ego is a thought or perception that says "I exist in thoughts."

You don't need ego or identities to love and be emotional. Love and emotions exist on their own. There is just a feeling of happiness, and you think "I want to share this feeling with everyone." It's not about "you" anymore, it's just about everyone or all of existence. Ego constricts love because it isn't love, it muddles the experience of love and gets in the middle of it. The ego is a misperception which causes you to think that limiting your love is the best thing to do.

In the same way that you don't need ego to love the flavour of ice cream, the love of ice cream is just your experience of the flavour of ice cream, not anything else. The experience of taste is not ego, and it has nothing to do with anything other than itself, it is just experience. That's it. The color red has nothing to do with anything other than the color of red. Same goes for love and all the rest. 

Love, taste, touch, excitement, etc. are not ego, they have nothing to do with ego, they are all experiences, and experience is infinite. All the psychology which normally constricts these experiences comes to an end, and then what you actually are just flourishes naturally, and then that is enlightenment.

Non-dual zombies sounds like what you get with psychedelics, with all these weekly solipsism threads, lol.

The entire ego unfolding and all its stories and feeling can happen even when enlightened its just not the gold standard end all suffering state, its a normie enlightened state lol, Im speaking from what I think it is but if I had to pick any guru pretty much ever they say the same thing, disclaimer I am not appealing to authority only making it aware that this end all suffering state is not what these gurus are experiencing. So by this definition of enlightenment they are not awake. Eckhart Tolle would not be awake. 

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Dont get me wrong, i love this state and going to practice inducing it. Thanks for the feed back. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by integral

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

What is a tool for?

To get you a certain result, in this case being enlightened, which is preferable to not being enlightened. You do understand this.

[Osaid]

There is no normie enlightened state or multiple enlightened states or different degrees of enlightenment. It's all just pointing to one thing that either does happen or doesn't happen, like a binary, which a bunch of previous sages and mystics have been trying to point people to for centuries. It's the same thing the Buddha, Ralston, Krishnamurti, etc. all point to. When you achieve it, you lose your sense of time forever. You can never feel boredom again. The end.

The ego mind looks at this and says: "What? It's just a binary off and on thing?? It's just some psychological recontextualization? That's so stupid! That's not enlightenment! Everyone told me enlightenment is infinite love and infinite bliss, and I heard reports where this guy literally became God and imagined everything with his mind!" And then the ego is stuck to those stories forever. 

Another reason why this confuses the ego is that it can't comprehend that all these "side effects" are actually just related to one recontextualization/insight. 

Anyways, namaste, friends. I'll just retreat to my mountain cave forever now and grow a long beard or something, I guess. I kind of get why they do that now.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Osaid

[integral]

46 minutes ago, Osaid said:

Anyways, namaste, friends. I'll just retreat to my mountain cave forever now and grow a long beard or something, I guess. I kind of get why they do that now.

Lmao ill be waiting for your first book release.  

[Osaid]

16 minutes ago, integral said:

Lmao ill be waiting for your first book release.  

Lol maybe. I guess that's the fate of western capitalistic enlightened folk. No caves, just books. Or maybe I could write a book while in a cave. Two in one.

[Javfly33]

8 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

What has been verified? What are you conscious of?

What's enlightenment?

I have not said that I have been conscious of anything  That's another 'Famous phrase' of Leo lmao 

I don't know what is Enlightment. But I know this, having an experience one day, saying that that is Enlightment and that now you are Awake as an eternal conceptual trophy, while your actual state of consciousness is numb, off, in compulsive, mind frequency, like most mortals, no, I don't think that is Enlightment. It shocking that I have to say this, it is so obvious. 

Everyone can have a trip one day or a powerful spiritual experience, but go tell me what does that serve you. We should be interested in actual solutions.

 

Edited August 22, 2023 by Javfly33

[integral]

On 8/20/2023 at 7:30 PM, Osaid said:

When you're enlightened, you're just permanently stuck in meditation. There is no oscillation between a meditative experience and a non-meditative experience anymore. It's just meditation forever.

[Javfly33]

14 hours ago, integral said:

@Osaid Before or after enlightenment there is pain just like there is social anxiety, everything is still arising.

LoL.

You are clearly falling into the thinking narrative of believing there is enlightment, mean while your actual state is not saying the same.

For social anxiety to exists, your state of energy and awareness must be really damaged and compressed.

None of that crap can exist in intense and moderately-high activation of your consciousness. Which just tells me you haven't activated it yet and seen what is possible.

Also, seen what is actual liberation vs thinking and telling yourself you are liberated.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Javfly33

[UnbornTao]

On 8/22/2023 at 1:58 AM, Carl-Richard said:

To get you a certain result, in this case being enlightened, which is preferable to not being enlightened. You do understand this.

That's what I'm getting at.

Enlightenment isn't a process.

Edited August 24, 2023 by UnbornTao

[UnbornTao]

On 8/22/2023 at 7:49 AM, Javfly33 said:

I have not said that I have been conscious of anything 

What are you doing then?

This is what the work is about.

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I don't know what is Enlightment. But I know this, having an experience one day, saying that that is Enlightment and that now you are Awake as an eternal conceptual trophy, while your actual state of consciousness is numb, off, in compulsive, mind frequency, like most mortals, no, I don't think that is Enlightment. It shocking that I have to say this, it is so obvious. 

A concept is a concept.

You must know permanently, so to speak. This isn't a state, though. Perceptive abilities remain the same. Your experience of yourself, the world, others and emotions remains largely the same, except that now you are free from them. You can be bored and enlightened.

It's clear to me you're holding some ideal about this.

Monks experience despair, desire, jealousy, joy and pain. Awakened warriors throughout history killed people. Enlightened people aren't suddenly able to walk on water. If you cooked amazing omelets before enlightenment, after it you would still be able to do so. See?

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Everyone can have a trip one day or a powerful spiritual experience, but go tell me what does that serve you. We should be interested in actual solutions.

Solutions to what?

What is self-serving might conflict with what's true.

Edited August 25, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

10 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

That's what I'm getting at. Enlightenment isn't a result, as that would imply process.

Yes, it could be said that enlightenment is preferable to ignorance.

You should re-read what I wrote above about Neo-Advaita. There are benefits to conceiving of things the way you're doing right now, but it's just another language game. If you recognize that it's just a language game, you can subscribe to other language games as well without problems. In other words, you can describe things as a process and also not a process. Because there is utility to both descriptions.

It's not for no reason that people talk about enlightenment as a process (with a start and an end result), and you do understand that reason: people meditate and learn various things that give them insights, shifts in perspective, and which eventually lands them in a place which we call "enlightenment". Is it the same for everyone? Is there a mandatory step by step recipe you need to follow? No, but these are things people do and that we associate with enlightenment, which can be conceived of as a process with a start and an end result. 

If you want to be thoroughly consistent in your skeptical approach to describing reality, you should go all in and not say anything, because that is already "delusion" from the perspective of the Absolute (and you save yourself the performative contradictions). But again, you want to say things, so you need a language game, and I'm saying you might as well use multiple language games in a way that is rational and not get religiously stuck on just one.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Javfly33]

56 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

What are you doing then? That is what the work is all about!

Enlightenment isn't a concept. An enlightenment experience isn't enough. You must be conscious permanently so to speak. But it isn't a state. You can be bored and enlightened. Your experience of the yourself, the world, others and emotions is the same, except that now you are free from it.

It's clear to me you're holding some ideal about this matter. Gautama ate, pooped, slept, and talked like most mortals. Monks experience despair, jealousy, joy and pain. Your perceptive abilities remain the same. It's not like enlightened people can fly or walk on water although that'd be cool.

Solutions to what? This isn't about what is self-serving but about the truth. Those might conflict.

Yes sir ?

I shall not be a devil to use enlightenment for my devilish self serving purposes sir!

Understood, sir!

17 hours ago, integral said:

@Osaid

 

[UnbornTao]

On 8/22/2023 at 2:49 PM, Javfly33 said:

Yes sir ?

I shall not be a devil to use enlightenment for my devilish self serving purposes sir!

Understood, sir!

Hearing that the truth might be useless doesn't sit well with our ideals about it. It undermines meaning.

You think that enlightenment will improve your experience.

Maybe it also brings freedom, among other things. But these are side-effects.

Let us just want what's true.

Edited August 25, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Javfly33]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Again, your self doesn't like to hear that the truth is useless and antithetical to self-survival. It conflicts with your fantasies about what enlightenment will bring you -- in short, an improved experience. Let us just want what's true.

I see, so the point is to pursue the actual truth, the one that is useless to pursue.

?

Edited August 22, 2023 by Javfly33

[integral]

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

LoL.

You are clearly falling into the thinking narrative of believing there is enlightment, mean while your actual state is not saying the same.

For social anxiety to exists, your state of energy and awareness must be really damaged and compressed.

None of that crap can exist in intense and moderately-high activation of your consciousness. Which just tells me you haven't activated it yet and seen what is possible.

Also, seen what is actual liberation vs thinking and telling yourself you are liberated.

Ive experience the state mutliple times in my life sober but it doesnt last more then 5 minutes.

I view it as a Ideal state that isnt any different then drug assist states. Some people can sustain these states sober, I don't think I can.

Whats more valuable to me is stages of ego development that takes real growth that random binary on and off enlightenments cant acquire but probably helps.

You cant learn how to play piano at a high level by inducing it with a drug, just like you cant induce a high level of being with a drug or spontaneous enlightenments states.

Edited August 22, 2023 by integral

[Javfly33]

15 minutes ago, integral said:

Ive experience the state mutliple times in my life sober but it doesnt last more then 5 minutes.

I view it as a Ideal state that isnt any different then drug assist states. Some people can sustain these states sober, I don't think I can.

Whats more valuable to me is stages of ego development that takes real growth that random binary on and off enlightenments cant acquire but probably helps.

You cant learn how to play piano at a high level by inducing it with a drug, just like you cant induce a high level of being with a drug or spontaneous enlightenments states.

I don't think I get your point now, although I mostly agree with what you are saying. @integral

[integral]

21 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I don't think I get your point now, although I mostly agree with what you are saying. @integral

Will a spontaneous enlightenment make someone mature or have integrity? or does it take practice to learn to play the piano? 

Edited August 22, 2023 by integral

[Javfly33]

3 minutes ago, integral said:

Will a spontaneous enlightenment make some mature or have integrity? or does it take practice to learn to play the piano? 

I don't know what is a spontaneous enlightment. 

But I would say no, any experience (imo, even the 'no experience') momentary, usually does not solve your life, at all. 

[integral]

4 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I don't know what is a spontaneous enlightment. 

The below statement

14 hours ago, Osaid said:

There is no normie enlightened state or multiple enlightened states or different degrees of enlightenment. It's all just pointing to one thing that either does happen or doesn't happen, like a binary, which a bunch of previous sages and mystics have been trying to point people to for centuries. It's the same thing the Buddha, Ralston, Krishnamurti, etc. all point to. When you achieve it, you lose your sense of time forever. You can never feel boredom again. The end.

On/Off bing bang enlightenment unlocked and achieved. ?

Edited August 22, 2023 by integral