Someone please talk Christianity out of me.

[Inliytened1]

18 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

So are Christian mystics religious or spiritual?

There is only a christian who becomes a mystic.  Once a mystic, they have to abandon their belief in Christ as God.

You can call that spiritual if you want, but i prefer just a mystic.

[UnbornTao]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Then what do you think is being said?  

That spirituality and religion are needed and important for understanding reality. They're not direct. I recommend pure contemplation. "What is this?", basically, "this" being whatever we're looking into.

Edited August 8, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

That spirituality and religion are needed and important for understanding reality. They're not direct. I recommend pure contemplation. "What is this?", basically.

Religion steers you away from understanding reality.  Spirituality in of itself can be turned into a belief.  Just like religion.  This is the danger of Buddhism, of non-duality, of spirituality, of science, and of religion.   There are dangers everywhere.  But I agree with your recommendation.  Pure contemplation is the only way.  

Edited August 8, 2023 by Inliytened1

[UnbornTao]

Also, what are we referring to when we talk about both religion and spirituality? What actions are we talking about in each case? Based on that, we can clear up the possible reasons and consequences for engaging in either of them.

Edited August 8, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

There is only a christian who becomes a mystic.  Once a mystic, they have to abandon their belief in Christ as God.

You can call that spiritual if you want, but i prefer just a mystic.

Let's say the mystic reads certain books that give insight to the mystical dimension of reality, follows certain rituals and practices that cultivate that insight, and goes to certain communities for wisdom and support. Are they now still just a mystic?

[Inliytened1]

23 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Let's say the mystic reads certain books that give insight to the mystical dimension of reality, follows certain rituals and practices that cultivate that insight, and goes to certain communities for wisdom and support. Are they now still just a mystic?

I consider someone enlightened to be a mystic.   So they would not need to read anymore books on spirituality.   They may wanna study history or science- but spirituality was not something they would need.  They would already have experienced God.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Carl-Richard]

25 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

I consider someone enlightened to be a mystic.   So they would not need to read anymore books on spirituality.   They may wanna study history or science- but spirituality was not something they would need.  They would already have experienced God.

So what is the difference between spirituality and religion?

[Razard86]

5 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yes!  But not just to be able to realize it is God - it is also to be able to realize it is not God.

Only possible with weakness. God is so powerful that unless God takes form and place itself under pressure it would never be able to realize it is not God as a limited form. Only through its connection as form to the formless can it awaken to itself as God. Without a conscious connection it cannot be God as we know it.

[Inliytened1]

35 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

So what is the difference between spirituality and religion?

I thought we went through this already.  I see your point in how they can become indistinguishable.   It's actually extremely scary.  But there is a difference and you know what it is.  You don't need me to tell you.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

I thought we went through this already.  I see your point in how they can become indistinguishable.   It's actually extremely scary.  But there is a difference and you know what it is.  You don't need me to tell you.

There are no absolute definitions of words. I'm asking for your definitions of the words. If you don't have any and you go by the general feel of the culture, that is fine. In that case, when you say "religion", I think you're referring to a certain historical phenomena (something that exists right now and has existed for a long time); call it the World religions, old or traditional religion, organized religion, etc., while "spirituality" is new religion; "New-Age spirituality", postmodern spirituality not married to any specific tradition, etc.

As old religion is more calcified and not up to date with the times, new religion is more in line with recent modern developments and the individualistic worldview of especially the West: "it's not about following a doctrine — it's about finding the truth and doing what you want! (and completely on your own)", and likewise, it's less established in terms of collectivist things like tradition, institutions and communities.

And so the spiritual quest gets fragmented from other human needs (communal and otherwise), and you end up with these lonely and lost people who seek communities such as this one for support and wisdom, which is why I think it's funny when these people talk about how "not religious" they are. No, you're very religious, just born in the wrong era where the new religion is "spirituality".

Edited August 9, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Inliytened1]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

There are no absolute definitions of words. I'm asking for your definitions of the words. If you don't have any and you go by the general feel of the culture, that is fine. In that case, when you say "religion", I think you're referring to a certain historical phenomena (something that exists right now and has existed for a long time); call it the World religions, old or traditional religion, organized religion, etc., while "spirituality" is new religion; "New-Age spirituality", postmodern spirituality not married to any specific tradition, etc.

As old religion is more calcified and not up to date with the times, new religion is more in line with recent modern developments and the individualistic worldview of especially the West: "it's not about following a doctrine — it's about finding the truth and doing what you want! (and completely on your own)", and likewise, it's less established in terms of collectivist things like tradition, institutions and communities.

And so the spiritual quest gets fragmented from other human needs (communal and otherwise), and you end up with these lonely and lost people who seek communities such as this one for support and wisdom, which is why I think it's funny when these people talk about how "not religious" they are. No, you're very religious, just born in the wrong era where the new religion is "spirituality".

Test.

[Inliytened1]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

There are no absolute definitions of words. I'm asking for your definitions of the words. If you don't have any and you go by the general feel of the culture, that is fine. In that case, when you say "religion", I think you're referring to a certain historical phenomena (something that exists right now and has existed for a long time); call it the World religions, old or traditional religion, organized religion, etc., while "spirituality" is new religion; "New-Age spirituality", postmodern spirituality not married to any specific tradition, etc.

As old religion is more calcified and not up to date with the times, new religion is more in line with recent modern developments and the individualistic worldview of especially the West: "it's not about following a doctrine — it's about finding the truth and doing what you want! (and completely on your own)", and likewise, it's less established in terms of collectivist things like tradition, institutions and communities.

And so the spiritual quest gets fragmented from other human needs (communal and otherwise), and you end up with these lonely and lost people who seek communities such as this one for support and wisdom, which is why I think it's funny when these people talk about how "not religious" they are. No, you're very religious, just born in the wrong era where the new religion is "spirituality".

Religion to me is something you are born into.  Something you were told to believe and you were told to pray to a God that was the source of reality.  All of the answers were given to you.

True religion is spirit- or spirituality.   This is finding what is true for yourself, and looking within for that

[Razard86]

3 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Religion to me is something you are born into.  Something you were told to believe and you were told to pray to a God that was the source of reality.  All of the answers were given to you.

True religion is spirit- or spirituality.   This is finding what is true for yourself, and looking within for that

The looking within part might need to be clarified because I had some recent awakenings that showed me that "looking within" practices were not being properly emphasized. For example, I recently was able to connect my heart with my mind. So now I have a deeper connection than I had before. My heart communicates with feeling, so it takes awhile for me to translate/decipher it but it makes insights more direct and quick.

I noticed that when people talk about the heart they don't really emphasize it enough. It really feels like my heart has its own intelligence like the brain that interprets and comes to its own conclusions. This along with the Chakra centers all work in tandem to purify the vessel more and more so I AM can move more freely. 

 

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Religion to me is something you are born into.  Something you were told to believe and you were told to pray to a God that was the source of reality.  All of the answers were given to you.

I'll propose to you that you were told by someone that non-duality is true, told to meditate, and you did. You took all of that on faith.

 

8 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

True religion is spirit- or spirituality.   This is finding what is true for yourself, and looking within for that

So yes, postmodern and individualist values; values that you were born into.

[Inliytened1]

12 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'll propose to you that you were told by someone that non-duality is true, told to meditate, and you did. You took all of that on faith.

 

 

No - I listened to some concepts with curiosity and then I turned within through meditation.   Actually I began meditating after I listened to Leo's video on boredom.   It was mainly about the ego always needing some type of entertainment- and that it is actually healthy to just sit and do nothing with your mind.  Just sit and do nothing.  And then yes, I found the enlightenment videos and did self inquiry.   But I really was just taking the stuff in out of curiosity and with an open mind.  I did not put my faith in anything.   

Edited August 9, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Carl-Richard]

5 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

No - I listened to some concepts with curiosity and then I turned within through meditation.   Actually I began meditating after I listened to Leo's video on boredom.   It was mainly about the ego always needing some type of entertainment- and that it is actually healthy to just sit and do nothing with your mind.  Just sit and do nothing.  And then yes, I found the enlightenment videos and did self inquiry.   But I really was just taking the stuff in out of curiosity and with an open mind.  I did not put my faith in anything.   

So again, postmodern and individualist: "I was just following my curiosity, choosing what to listen to"; values that you were born into. It's of course a bit different from a traditional religious person who is more loyal to a certain tradition, but there is nevertheless an element of faith present when you dedicate your time and effort to a proposed outcome which you haven't yet experienced for yourself and which you've only heard from other people.

[gettoefl]

10 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Religion to me is something you are born into.  Something you were told to believe and you were told to pray to a God that was the source of reality.  All of the answers were given to you.

True religion is spirit- or spirituality.   This is finding what is true for yourself, and looking within for that

religion is hierarchy; while spirituality assets i am my own authority

spirituality however has to begin with religion since when you are young you have to take things on faith

then if so inclined you have to find someone to trust

if you just believe them that is religion; if you realize for yourself this is spirituality

because religion is hierarchy it is about groups, one is the leader one is the follower

spirituality on the other hand is about the individual and as explained is the outgrowing of religion

 

[Carl-Richard]

35 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

religion is hierarchy; while spirituality assets i am my own authority

spirituality however has to begin with religion since when you are young you have to take things on faith

then if so inclined you have to find someone to trust

if you just believe them that is religion; if you realize for yourself this is spirituality

because religion is hierarchy it is about groups, one is the leader one is the follower

spirituality on the other hand is about the individual and as explained is the outgrowing of religion

Is it just a coincidence that this perfectly lines up with your more general worldview given to you by your culture?

[Princess Arabia]

21 hours ago, Razard86 said:

If Pain and suffering didn't exist, there would be a difference. Without Pain....you have nothing to ground you in what we call real. For example....the phrase "Shit just got real" is used when PAIN enters the building. Notice Leo's apology followed his own personal pain, same with me being humbled. 

Suffering/Pain= Is one of the strongest attachments, and grounding mechanisms in Reality. Without it....it wouldn't be real.

This I understand and makes so much sense. When certain parts of the body aches, that's when you notice it and your focus turns towards it. Other than just normal day-to-day maintenance of the body when you're going through the motions and just mechanically doing what's normal, we don't really notice it until we're going through some kind of pain in a particular part. So, when I compare that to Reality or humans, most are just going through the motions; and it's not until some form of emotional suffering is being experienced, that it stops you in your tracks and makes you ponder and think and bring you back home/within, not without. 

Without suffering and pain we'd be more lost and just floating in air, so-to-speak. Eckhart Tolle was about to jump, literally, when he awoken, even though that extremity isn't required. When you cut your finger and it bleeds, you're not going to cut it some more to try to heal it, you start the healing process by doing whatever means necessary. Some may apply the wrong kind of "bandage", which is what most of society is doing, some may use the right kind and some may apply nothing at all. Our work is to figure out the right kind and apply it, whatever that is for you and can come in many different formats. I think true healing comes when we recognize that we were never broken to begin with and all we need to do is take off the fake "bandages" and just breathe and let the Universe guide us just as the body knows how to heal itself given the proper conditions. 

Religion and Spirituality serves it's purpose, but when used as a bandage to try to heal a wound that is not even there, that's when it becomes suffocating; and, now, we try to invent ways, means and processes to uncover that bandage that was never needed in the first place and the cycle never ends. That's the loop. Coming from a place of knowing, already fulfilled and needing nothing but only to experience that part of Infinity we choose in any given moment is the true challenge that most are not ready/able to overcome or are blinded to recognize our true purpose here as God/Infinity. 

This is what my inner guidance has revealed to me, if it's not so, then I know nothing.

[gettoefl]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Is it just a coincidence that this perfectly lines up with your more general worldview given to you by your culture?

i don't understand," your more general worldview given to you by your culture"