Great Examples of Softened Masculinity

[Samjc543]

 

These five guys are great examples of what softened masculinity can be like, especially contrasted in this show when they are working with a lot of trad-masc dudes. The show can be somewhat materialistic and comes with some biases, but is great generally and a great antidote to the overwhelming negativity of modern media. It is available on Netflix.

If you're a hetero-dude, you have a lot to learn from the queer community. Do not write them off because they might not be attracted to women like you. The queer community are trail-blazers when it comes to modern masculinity and integrating the feminine. They are pioneers have carved the path to authentic sexual and gender freedom and expression, in the face of overwhelming judgement and abuse. Cis-Hetero men as a group are late to the party and are seriously stunted when it comes to emotional maturity and relationship to the feminine. 

Integrate more queer voices into your media consumption and social relationships. Do not call yourself open-minded if you dismiss or write them off in a knee-jerk fashion. Internalised homophobia / transphobia runs so deep all the way to the fundamental view of who you think you are, and these guys are often decades ahead of you in terms of being free of these societal constraints.

You will soon see when you disobey sexual and gender norms just how brutal the pressure to conform really is still in 2023. From men and women. You will also see the bravery of these people, for whom going out into the world every day and just being themselves requires more bravery than most of your toughest experiences in life.

Disclaimer: My post is overwhelmingly positive, but please don't generalise and think queer people will always have perfectly healthy and integrated realtionships with their sexuality and gender expression. As mentioned above, they have experienced abandonment, abuse and judgement most cis-hetero guys can't imagine, so they often have a lot of healing to do.

 

[Edit Below]

 

Full free episode on Youtube: 

 

 

Great podcast on internalised homophobia: 

Internalised homophobia is not something that affects gay people. It is termed unconscious bias in straight people. Think about how the pressures to conform to a particular expression of masculinity may affect what you think and feel is an acceptable way to be in the world. 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Samjc543

[Raze]

“Softened masculinity” is harmful for most people.

Data finds that men who identify as very masculine tend to be healthier, less depressed, and happier, then men who identify as less masculine.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-pitfalls-and-power-of-masculinity

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Raze

[Samjc543]

@Raze  Your response has raised some interesting questions. Firstly, I want to make it clear that I am not pathologising masculinity, or at war with it. I am talking about integrating the feminine and softening some/many of the unnecessarily hard edges of masculinity. 

In the article, the report talks about "Men who identify as very masculine". As a psychology major, this is questionable as there is an assumption here that people on the whole are talking about the same thing when they say "masculine". It's a massively loaded term and the assumption embedded here that everyone is talking about the same thing is just that, an assumption. There is no breakdown of what that means for participants. An Andrew Tate fan and a more effeminate gay man would have wildly different ideas of what that word means.

It also does not take into account the pressures that different men may have to identify as masculine, as it has historically been revered over at least the past 10,000 years of completely patriarchal culture.

Also, you cannot write off the first statistic, that men who identify as very masculine are aggressive, love a good fight, take advantage of others, and take charge. As someone who's studied martial arts for many years at a high level, I can assure you that aggressiveness and loving a good fight are extremely shitty ways of being. Assertiveness is great, so is self-defence, but aggressiveness is absolutely not. Taking advantage of others is also completely emblematic of pathologically narcissism. Not great, and not to be swept under the rug.

As for the life outcomes, the stats are of poor quality. Like I mentioned above, the queer community has experienced an incredible amount of prejudice, judgement, abandonment and barriers in life. Remember that:

• A huge number of queer people are abandoned when they come out, and / or are thrown out of their homes. They still face significant abandonment even if they aren't thrown out.
• They face huge social and employment discrimination throughout their lives
• They are much more likely to be victims of abuse and violence
• Homosexuality has only recently become legal(!), whereas before they were often imprisoned or thrown into asylums. Gay rights are currently under threat still.

I can elaborate further on these, and add more to the list, but if your asking people to self-report life satisfaction you can't say that it's a result of identifying as masculine and not take into account these other factors. The data simply does not support the assertion that it's self-reported masculinity that decides positive life outcomes. Maybe identifying as very masculine puts you into the priveliged class that is masculine hetero-males and gives you that advantage. You have not accounted for this. Also high income and religiosity are ridiculous indicators of positive life outcomes. The most important jobs in our society are often the lowest paid (Think nurses, carers, healthcare assistants, childcare workers, teachers, social workers, emergency services). Religiosity is not virtuous.

Most of the other stats are self-reported (e.g. "people see me as loving and affectionate"). Okay, this reflects somebody's self-image and doesn't give any real account of how their lives play out. Maybe he thinks that, but maybe his family think he's aggressive and loves a good fight with his wife.

Basically the article's statistics are extremely messy, and when taken in a bigger context, almost completely meaningless. I believe it's written from a place of bias, and is not evidence-led.  I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water, but above I have included some pretty big criticisms of this article. Nobody's saying masculinity should be shamed.

Have you watched Queer Eye? If not I would consider your response more of the knee-jerk type.

[Realms of Wonder]

Thanks for sharing this!

 

Having grown up in Rural Missouri in Christian household, there are a lot of subconscious biases I have towards the LGBTQ+ community, I have done some work to let go of them and foster more acceptance, but there is work to do still.

Watching the episode you shared, I see some Qualities in the "Fab 5," that I admire, Their willingness to but spontaneous and honest, the question and challenge, to be unique, playful, unencumbered, and exude their type of sexuality. 

 

[something_else]

Quote

“Softened masculinity” is harmful for most people.

Data finds that men who identify as very masculine tend to be healthier, less depressed, and happier, then men who identify as less masculine.

https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-pitfalls-and-power-of-masculinity

I think you make a valid point, the study is interesting and there is definitely something worth looking at there.

However I don't think that it is fair to conclude that a softened form of masculinity is harmful for most people from just this.

Someone who wants to be seen as masculine, and reports that they are in a study, is unlikely to report themselves as having any issues in life because that is stereotypically unmasculine to admit such things. Even if they do in fact have issues or dissatisfaction. Self-reported studies always have to be taken with a grain of salt.

It's also a bit sus that 41% of men reported themselves as being very masculine.

Softened masculinity also doesn't necessarily imply a lack of masculinity. Softened masculinity can be created by taking a masculine man and adding femininity to him as well, making him more well rounded. Not by subtracting his masculinity and replacing it with femininity. So someone in that study could report as 'very masculine' but also have feminine traits, making them 'softened.' I think that is the idea here.

 

[Raze]

6 hours ago, Samjc543 said:

@Raze  Your response has raised some interesting questions. Firstly, I want to make it clear that I am not pathologising masculinity, or at war with it. I am talking about integrating the feminine and softening some/many of the unnecessarily hard edges of masculinity. 

In the article, the report talks about "Men who identify as very masculine". As a psychology major, this is questionable as there is an assumption here that people on the whole are talking about the same thing when they say "masculine". It's a massively loaded term and the assumption embedded here that everyone is talking about the same thing is just that, an assumption. There is no breakdown of what that means for participants. An Andrew Tate fan and a more effeminate gay man would have wildly different ideas of what that word means.

It also does not take into account the pressures that different men may have to identify as masculine, as it has historically been revered over at least the past 10,000 years of completely patriarchal culture.

Yes, their definition of masculinity is going to be overall slanted towards the traditional beliefs about it. 

Quote

Also, you cannot write off the first statistic, that men who identify as very masculine are aggressive, love a good fight, take advantage of others, and take charge. As someone who's studied martial arts for many years at a high level, I can assure you that aggressiveness and loving a good fight are extremely shitty ways of being. Assertiveness is great, so is self-defence, but aggressiveness is absolutely not. Taking advantage of others is also completely emblematic of pathologically narcissism. Not great, and not to be swept under the rug.

If people who identify with it are correlated with better life outcomes, it is not inherently a shitty way of being.

Quote

As for the life outcomes, the stats are of poor quality. Like I mentioned above, the queer community has experienced an incredible amount of prejudice, judgement, abandonment and barriers in life. Remember that:

I wasn’t referring to the queer community. You can be a effeminate straight man or a very traditionally masculine gay man. I was referring to how if men learn from the queer community to be more feminine they could harm their outcomes as men who identify as less masculine seem correlated with many worse life outcomes.

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I can elaborate further on these, and add more to the list, but if your asking people to self-report life satisfaction you can't say that it's a result of identifying as masculine and not take into account these other factors. The data simply does not support the assertion that it's self-reported masculinity that decides positive life outcomes. Maybe identifying as very masculine puts you into the priveliged class that is masculine hetero-males and gives you that advantage. You have not accounted for this.

 Hetero males are actually an underprivileged class. They are the majority of suicides, homeless, workplace deaths, homicide victims, receive substantially less in health funding, scholarships, and government aid, and are only 40% of college graduates.

Quote

Also high income and religiosity are ridiculous indicators of positive life outcomes. The most important jobs in our society are often the lowest paid (Think nurses, carers, healthcare assistants, childcare workers, teachers, social workers, emergency services). Religiosity is not virtuous

High income and religiosity is correlated with many positive life outcomes such as general happiness, greater relationship satisfaction, etc.

Quote

Most of the other stats are self-reported (e.g. "people see me as loving and affectionate"). Okay, this reflects somebody's self-image and doesn't give any real account of how their lives play out. Maybe he thinks that, but maybe his family think he's aggressive and loves a good fight with his wife.

Still, one’s self image is very important to one’s life and people tend to try to live up to them. Many people despite being great in their actual actions are depressed due to self hating and excessive self criticism. 

Quote

Have you watched Queer Eye? If not I would consider your response more of the knee-jerk type.

No, but I regularly see it recommended men move away from traditional masculinity, soften masculinity etc. without ever seeing evidence of why doing that is a good choice. 

In this post you suggest men should learn from the queer community because they are decades ahead in gender expression and relationships, I’ve also seen similar suggestions made about men needing to learn from women and more left leaning sources on how to express themselves and manage their emotional lives. But lgbtq people, women, and liberals report worse and declining mental health, if anything it sounds like they should learn principles of traditional masculinity such as stoicism.

 

[PlayOnWords]