This is why eating Meat is not that healthy

[LSD-Rumi]

• Heterocyclic amines (HCAs) are a group of chemical compounds that can be formed when muscle meats, such as beef, pork, poultry, and fish, are cooked at high temperatures. They are also found in smaller amounts in some other foods, such as roasted coffee and smoked fish.

  HCAs are formed when amino acids and creatine (a chemical found in muscle) react at high temperatures. The specific HCAs that are formed depend on the type of meat, the cooking method, and the cooking temperature.

  Some HCAs are known to be carcinogens, meaning they can cause cancer.

• Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) are a group of chemicals that are formed when organic matter is burned at high temperatures. They are found in a variety of foods, including grilled, smoked, and barbecued meats. PAHs have been linked to an increased risk of cancer, especially in the stomach, colon, and rectum. However, the evidence linking PAHs to cancer in humans is still inconclusive. Some studies have found that people who eat a lot of grilled or barbecued meat have an increased risk of certain types of cancer, but other studies have not found this association.

• AGEs, or advanced glycation end products, are compounds that form when sugars react with proteins and lipids in the body. This reaction is also known as the Maillard reaction. AGEs can accumulate in the body over time, and they have been linked to a number of chronic diseases, including:

  Heart disease: AGEs can damage the lining of blood vessels, which can lead to heart disease.

  Diabetes: AGEs can interfere with the body's ability to use insulin, which can lead to diabetes.

  Cancer: AGEs have been linked to an increased risk of some types of cancer, such as colon cancer.

  Alzheimer's disease: AGEs may play a role in the development of Alzheimer's disease.

  Some of the foods that are highest in AGEs include:

  Meat: Red meat, such as beef, pork, and lamb, is particularly high in AGEs. This is because it is often cooked at high temperatures.

  Cheese: Certain cheeses, such as cheddar and parmesan, are also high in AGEs. This is because they are made with milk proteins that are prone to glycation.

Edited August 2, 2023 by LSD-Rumi

[toasty7718]

@Michael569 would you agree with this? 

[sholomar]

It's better to not grill meat at high temperatures or excessively smoke meats, but I still do...applewood smoked burgers and steaks...I also grill beyond burgers when Costco has them on sale...I can go either way, but I counter my meat consumption with antioxidant consumption. Plus I don't particularly care when I die. If it's my time, it's my time.

Most meat eaters around me eat lots of other junk food and low fiber diets. It's the diet as a whole you need to factor into consideration. 

The safest meats to eat would be things like Costco canned chicken...canned meat cooked through basically boiling is basically harmless. Also stews and slow cooker meat that is also basically boiled.  Meat is in fact quite healthy in moderation. Most vegans end up with nutrient deficiencies if they don't supplement. Worst for you foods are processed high carb seed oil filled foods...pop tarts, chips, pizza, crackers, donuts, cookies, French fries, etc...

I have lots of Costco canned sardines. Best source of EPA and DHA with least mercury content of any omega 3 fish. I never liked sardines until I realized it was because of the crap they were flavoring them with...only olive oil that's what I like.

But yes, overcooking meat produces carcinogens. This can be mitigated somewhat by mixing antioxidants into the meat or applying rubs which contain antioxidants. Allowing fat to drip on to charcoal and produce smoke is among the worst offending but it's also the thing I love to do most :-). Nonetheless everything posted in the OPs original post is scientifically true.

Edited August 3, 2023 by sholomar

[Michael569]

10 hours ago, toasty7718 said:

would you agree with this? 

I don't disagree. It's a very valid post. 

The only thing I'm not too clear on is to what degree these are imlicated in the disease outcomes. I think when it comes to read meat, it is harmful regardless of processing type because its real harm to the human body comes from ApoB binding inside tunica intima, not from hydrocarbons. But hydrocarbons might be aggrevating the damage that's for sure. 

Interestingly for fish, the literature is clear on their beneficial effects despite the fact that half the fish in the world is probably consumed grilled...which makes me think that the impact of PCBs and HCAs can be mitigated by other beneficial factors in the foods such as PUFA, Vitamin E content and polyphenol content of vegetable served alongside it...maybe...maybe not. 

Diabetes is caused by energy excess in the first place - diabetes can be caused by any diet as long as the person is constantly gaining weight. And the only reliable "cure" for it is weight loss. 

The literature on cancer is a bit of an enigma for me - no idea how much hydrocarbons are implicated. I think when I was reviewing the bowel cancer literature, the impact of hydrocarbons was not conclusive 

When it comes to neurodegeneration the research is inconclusive but I would side towards them being quit harmful. 

That being said it is probably preferable to always cook meat on lower temperatures. Grilling and flaming is just stupid and completely unnecessary practice. I don't care if it tastes good. 

One of the reasons these things are so hard to study is that hydrocarbon exposure is a proxy for a bad lifestyle overall such as eating a lot of junk, being inactive, smoking, drinking etc. And because studying PBC exposure in clinical setting is unethical, the epidemiology is what we have and it is a mess. My personal take is that they are probably quite harmful and should be minimised on individual level. I'm more worried about burned meat than I'm worried about grilled sweet potatoes tho.

But i wouldn't make a bridge saying "PCB" causes cancer or heart disease - that would be taking it too far

Overall I think this is a great post bringing lot of awareness @LSD-Rumi 

Edited August 3, 2023 by Michael569

[LSD-Rumi]

@sholomar We overconsume meat as Humans. My family eats meat almost every single day (along with veggies or beans, etc...). I think we should limit our meat consumption to 2 times a week max.

[undeather]

I would generally consider myself on the "less meat is better" side. 

However, there are important caveats to make:

1) Does-response: I don't see any good-quality evidence (except ethical reasons) against low meat consumption (1-2x/week).

2) What kind of meat & cooking method you are using is pivotal

3) Some meats show health promoting effects (especially fish)

4) I have seen enough anecdotes to conclude that some people just do better on some form of meat-intake (whatever the mechanism might be is unclear, could be psychological as well)

5) Showing that chemical X found in meat is somewhat associated with all kinds of negative health consquences is interesting but insufficient. It's like the carnivore bro's on youtube telling us that antinutrients like phytic acid will kill your baby. 

6) Fermented milk products like some cheeses or yoghurt are associated with reduced mortality

Edited August 3, 2023 by undeather

[Carl-Richard]

13 hours ago, undeather said:

It's like the carnivore bro's on youtube telling us that antinutrients like phytic acid will kill your baby.

Why am I laughing ?

Edited August 4, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[LSD-Rumi]

@undeather Of course, Health is a multifactorial thing. Hundreds of different elements control your health.

[Schizophonia]

All the examples given are true for cooked vegetables.

[LSD-Rumi]

1 minute ago, Schizophonia said:

All the examples given are true for cooked vegetables.

Nope, and that's the whole point. These carcinogens are not present in cocked plants. They require certain amino acids and fats present in meat.

[Schizophonia]

2 minutes ago, LSD-Rumi said:

Nope, and that's the whole point. These carcinogens are not present in cocked plants. They require certain amino acids and fats present in meat.

Which ? ?

[LSD-Rumi]

@Schizophonia all of them. They are present in much lower amounts.

Also veggies contain antioxidants and fiber.

[Jason Actualization]

The instant pot is the best way to cook/prepare meat at lower temperatures (~230F) and sidestep these problems.

[Javfly33]

only dumb people eat meat 

[Grzegorz]

On 2.8.2023 at 10:00 PM, LSD-Rumi said:

• Heterocyclic amines (HCAs) are a group of chemical compounds that can be formed when muscle meats, such as beef, pork, poultry, and fish, are cooked at high temperatures. They are also found in smaller amounts in some other foods, such as roasted coffee and smoked fish.

  HCAs are formed when amino acids and creatine (a chemical found in muscle) react at high temperatures. The specific HCAs that are formed depend on the type of meat, the cooking method, and the cooking temperature.

  Some HCAs are known to be carcinogens, meaning they can cause cancer.

• Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (PAHs) are a group of chemicals that are formed when organic matter is burned at high temperatures. They are found in a variety of foods, including grilled, smoked, and barbecued meats. PAHs have been linked to an increased risk of cancer, especially in the stomach, colon, and rectum. However, the evidence linking PAHs to cancer in humans is still inconclusive. Some studies have found that people who eat a lot of grilled or barbecued meat have an increased risk of certain types of cancer, but other studies have not found this association.

• AGEs, or advanced glycation end products, are compounds that form when sugars react with proteins and lipids in the body. This reaction is also known as the Maillard reaction. AGEs can accumulate in the body over time, and they have been linked to a number of chronic diseases, including:

  Heart disease: AGEs can damage the lining of blood vessels, which can lead to heart disease.

  Diabetes: AGEs can interfere with the body's ability to use insulin, which can lead to diabetes.

  Cancer: AGEs have been linked to an increased risk of some types of cancer, such as colon cancer.

  Alzheimer's disease: AGEs may play a role in the development of Alzheimer's disease.

  Some of the foods that are highest in AGEs include:

  Meat: Red meat, such as beef, pork, and lamb, is particularly high in AGEs. This is because it is often cooked at high temperatures.

  Cheese: Certain cheeses, such as cheddar and parmesan, are also high in AGEs. This is because they are made with milk proteins that are prone to glycation.

I wouldn’t go that far and conclude that „eating meat is not that healthy“ because of all this. It’s good to be aware of such details as they might be relevant to a specific situation.

As you’ve already mentioned it, I still wanna emphasize the big elephant in the room - these are correlations not causations. Keep this in mind before coming to a conclusion. I don’t think it’s helpful to cast a shadow on eating meat in general and making a reductionistic statement like this on a correlational basis.

 

Despite this, following your argument on HCA and PAH are high cooking temperatures part of the problem. Could you be more specific about this? I imagine that every food becomes unhealthy or even toxic, if overheated or burned. Doesn’t mean it has to be a „meat problem“.  Like French Fries. No one would conclude that potatoes are unhealthy because they form acrylamide when fried in high temperatures.

And as for the AGEs, am I right, there is no problem, if I simply avoid eating sugar?

 

From a nutritional standpoint is meat extremely nutrient dense and has its place in a healthy diet.

Edited August 28, 2023 by Grzegorz

[Butters]

I've actually increased my meat consumption recently and I feel great, very consistent energy, good farts. 

Funny thing is I've cut my vegetables at the same time, just happened naturally this way. 

Diet: organic eggs, blueberry smoothies, banana, coconut milk, lots of organic full fat Yoghurt, organic beef patties, organic or non organic chicken always cooked in grass fed butter, sometimes beans and real veggies maybe once a week. 

That's literally it. I eat less, I'm full fast. No Pasta, no bread, only some days when it presents itself. Had 8 slices of pizza at a party last week felt totally fine not lethargic nothing. 

BTW I'm in the Netherlands so idk what additional crap they put in food in your country but what I eat feels very clean. 

[Princess Arabia]

4 minutes ago, Butters said:

I've actually increased my meat consumption recently and I feel great, very consistent energy, good farts. 

Funny thing is I've cut my vegetables at the same time, just happened naturally this way. 

Diet: organic eggs, blueberry smoothies, banana, coconut milk, lots of organic full fat Yoghurt, organic beef patties, organic or non organic chicken always cooked in grass fed butter, sometimes beans and real veggies maybe once a week. 

That's literally it. I eat less, I'm full fast. No Pasta, no bread, only some days when it presents itself. Had 8 slices of pizza at a party last week felt totally fine not lethargic nothing. 

BTW I'm in the Netherlands so idk what additional crap they put in food in your country but what I eat feels very clean. 

What's your age range

[Butters]

33 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

What's your age range

I'm 34

[Princess Arabia]

14 minutes ago, Butters said:

I'm 34

Ok. These things usually affect you later on in life, but like you said, you're in a different country, so the food is probably cleaner.

[D2sage]

My grandfather is 80+ and he is still kicking. 

Never pork tho.

Edited August 27, 2023 by D2sage