Is Whim Hof Breathing Dangerous?

[SQAAD]

Is Whim hof breathing (and also other deep breathing techniques) dangerous? I am not talking about doing too much & passing out in your bathtub and getting drawned.

I am talking about the actual activity itself. Does it have any inherent dangers?

The reason i'm asking is because i've heard the arguement that the reason deep breathing makes you feel good is because of lack of oxygen and lack of oxygen is supposedly not a good thing.

Now i don't quite believe that a bit of lack of oxygen in this context can be damaging. It may even be beneficial. It's not like you are choking yourself to death. Not even close. There is also a rebalance afterwards.

I know from personal experience that there is a distinct difference between being choked out like in a submission vs deep breathing. Both get you high but it's not the same experience. I never get dizzy with deep breathing.

I really love deep breathing but every time i do it, i am fearful.

I see people who have been doing breathwork for years & decades (like Whim Hof & Troy Casey) with not visible ill effects.

And even the neuroscientist Andrew Huberman has been an advocate of deep breathing. I don't know what to make of this.

If someone is more knowledgeable about the subject, give me some feedback please.

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by SQAAD

[undeather]

Deep breathing exercises do not make you "lack oxygen", that's nonsense.

Typically, the Wim-Hof method is a centered around alternating phases of deep/fast breaths & a subsequent breathhold.

During the hyperventilation phase (deep/fast breaths), you will offload a lot of CO2 (carbon-dioxide) and hypersaturate the blood with O2 (oxygen). Low CO2 will slightly increase the pH level of your blood. This increases the binding affinity("strength") between your blood's hemoglobin and the oxygen-molecules (the so called Bohr-effect). This means that your blood is now on full fuel-efficiency mode: There is more than enough oxygen for your tissues, so it hold's onto it more tightly- you dont wan't to overwork your cells with too much oxygen!

When you start your breathhold - the exact opposite will happen! Your CO2 slowly raises - the pH drops to a more acidic state. This lowers the binding affinity and makes your oxygen diffuse more easily into cells/tissues. If you hold your breath for a very long time, your measureable oxygen level will decrease, but so does the binding affinity (how strong the blood holds onto the oxygen) - that means it will give away it's oxygen wayy easier! Your end-consumer of oxygen (your cells!) are never in real danger of suffocating. This is a bit simplified, but it answers the question.

Fun fact: The urge to breathe after a long hold is not caused by a "lack of oxygen" but an increase in CO2. (You have CO2-sensors in your brainstem!). You would have enough oxygen to survive for much longer. You can train yourself to increase CO2-tolerance.

TL;DR: Your body is smart and keeps an oxygen equilibrium for your cells, no matter what. If you feel the Wim Hof method helps you in any way or form, keep practicing! You won't damage your body and it seems to come with some health effects. Nitrous oxide levels shoot trough the roof during the breathhold, which is good! Only do it in safe conditions though!
 

[Jodistrict]

If you are concerned, you can buy a fingertip pulse oximeter blood oxygen sensor SpO2, and monitor yourself during the breath holds.  

[effortlesslumen]

If you are really sick or struggling, breath work is not going to fix you. Breath work is really difficult for people with anxiety and even worsens it for most anxiety  sufferes, especially those with sensitive vagus nerves, causing neurological symptoms such as tightness of the chest. Breat work is not going to make lupus, neurological Lyme, eczema, fibromyaglia, Parkinsons, or MS go away. You can bring in simple, gentle breathing techniques -- if they feel supportive and you are also staying hydrated and getting enough glucose, electrolytes, trace minerals, and macro minerals such as magnesium and trying to stay off caffeine." Medical Medium Brain Saver Book page 84. 

I hold this as true. Speaking from my own experience. I did it regulary in combination with much sport activity and used to be a habitul coffee drinker. Little did i know that the depressive and mental symptomps i used it against where linked to another cause. I did feel some possitive effects at first but slowly my adrenals and nervous system could not cope any longer and my body went into a slighty shutdown. I endend up running on adrenaline. Luckily i stopped and started got better. In my case i already had some things going on that were not a good combination. So i would be certain about your health state , why you use it and how you use it and how it affects your body not looking at the immdeate results, but more in differences of doing it 1 week on and off.  Balance.  For some people it helps  but for some its a mistake  and is not a good idea. 

Of course you have to decide for yourself if you hold this information as valid. For me ending coffee and breathwork was crucial. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by effortlesslumen

[SQAAD]

@undeather

11 hours ago, undeather said:

Deep breathing exercises do not make you "lack oxygen", that's nonsense.

Typically, the Wim-Hof method is a centered around alternating phases of deep/fast breaths & a subsequent breathhold.

During the hyperventilation phase (deep/fast breaths), you will offload a lot of CO2 (carbon-dioxide) and hypersaturate the blood with O2 (oxygen). Low CO2 will slightly increase the pH level of your blood. This increases the binding affinity("strength") between your blood's hemoglobin and the oxygen-molecules (the so called Bohr-effect). This means that your blood is now on full fuel-efficiency mode: There is more than enough oxygen for your tissues, so it hold's onto it more tightly- you dont wan't to overwork your cells with too much oxygen!

When you start your breathhold - the exact opposite will happen! Your CO2 slowly raises - the pH drops to a more acidic state. This lowers the binding affinity and makes your oxygen diffuse more easily into cells/tissues. If you hold your breath for a very long time, your measureable oxygen level will decrease, but so does the binding affinity (how strong the blood holds onto the oxygen) - that means it will give away it's oxygen wayy easier! Your end-consumer of oxygen (your cells!) are never in real danger of suffocating. This is a bit simplified, but it answers the question.

Fun fact: The urge to breathe after a long hold is not caused by a "lack of oxygen" but an increase in CO2. (You have CO2-sensors in your brainstem!). You would have enough oxygen to survive for much longer. You can train yourself to increase CO2-tolerance.

TL;DR: Your body is smart and keeps an oxygen equilibrium for your cells, no matter what. If you feel the Wim Hof method helps you in any way or form, keep practicing! You won't damage your body and it seems to come with some health effects. Nitrous oxide levels shoot trough the roof during the breathhold, which is good! Only do it in safe conditions though!
 

Terrific explanation. Thank you. If this is a simpified explanation then damn... ahahaha 

What about doing like 10-15 deep breaths without breathholid? Is that okay too?

Also check the short video below me. This dude claims that whim hof causes lack of oxygen. 

 

Edited August 3, 2023 by SQAAD

[OBEler]

I asked an certified wimhof instructor. He said wimhof is save and doesnt do any damage to body/mind.

 

Can someone explain what the longterm benefits are if I would do wimhof every Day? 

Edited August 3, 2023 by OBEler

[undeather]

8 hours ago, SQAAD said:

@undeather

Terrific explanation. Thank you. If this is a simpified explanation then damn... ahahaha 

What about doing like 10-15 deep breaths without breathholid? Is that okay too?

Also check the short video below me. This dude claims that whim hof causes lack of oxygen. 

 

Now it will get complicated  

What this guy says is half true and kinda deceiving: Hyperventilation (and the subsequent drop in CO2) ALSO leads to vasoconstriction, which ends up in a relative reduction of blood flow to your brain. This is one of the reasons why you might feel lightheaded/dizzy during the inhale/exhale-part of the exercise. However, the decrease in total cebreal blood volume is not concordant, indicating a decrease in blood-stream velocity. This is important. Also, your intracranial pressure goes down during that phase, which also adds to the symptoms you experience. 

This DOES not mean that your brain suddenly "lacks oxygen" - that's a nonsense conclusion as I have already stated. A real lack of oxygen would lead to a breakdown of the mitochondrial respiratory chain and finally the demise of the affected cells. Your body has safety mechanisms in place so that this exact thing does not happen as long as blood is actively circulating. Fainting is one of those safety mechanisms because it immedieatly stops any concious overwrite (like deliberate deep/long breaths) of put's you flat on the floor (equalizing gravitational forces throughout the body). 

Also, as your breathing exercise intensifies - you will release increasing levels of nitrous oxide, which mechnistacally counteract the constriction. 

When somebody puts you in choke-hold - you pass out. Is the underlying cause a "lack of oxygen"? - No! It's an automated mechanism due to a neurologically induced drop in blood pressure and/or a decrease in heart rate. This phenomenon is called reflex/vasovagal-syncope. You could argue that this is an relative decrease in oxygen but not an absolute - however, absolute lack is what counts! 

Also, the feeling in your extremities (the "tingling") is not caused by a lack of oxygen, but by increased blood pH (Respiratory alkalosis), which causes a decrease in free ionized calcium (which binds to albumin in a higher pH-environment). The lowered extracellular concentration of free Ca2+ ions increases the excitability of muscle cells as a result -> which is what you feel.

TL;DR: Don't worry - breathe motherfucker! 

Edited August 3, 2023 by undeather

[toasty7718]

@undeather personally, doing Wim Hof Method breathing exercises induces a DMT-like state during the breath-hold cycle - especially when I'm outside in nature.

Is there any explanation we know of as to why this happens?

[undeather]

2 hours ago, toasty7718 said:

@undeather personally, doing Wim Hof Method breathing exercises induces a DMT-like state during the breath-hold cycle - especially when I'm outside in nature.

Is there any explanation we know of as to why this happens?

Altered states of conciousness during breathwork are not uncommon.
Stan Grof, the psychodelic pioneer, wrote a great book about this, called "Holotropic breathwork".

What actually causes these kind of experiences remains up to speculation. I am not a materialist, so any "hallucinating brain"-explanation is pure nonsense in my opnion. There have been several studies which indicate that DMT is endogenously produced in various tissues across the body of mammals (like the pineal gland). Maybe certain breathwork-techiques release some DMT-storage in specific individuals? Maybe.

Another possible explanation could be the inhibiting effect on certain brain regions. Like most psychodelics, breathwork seems to decrease activity in default mode network - associated brain regions. If we would take conciousness as the fundamental "thing" of reality and the brain as some reducing-valve, then this would be a pretty coherent hypothesis imo.

Anyway, this is all speculation! But those are my thoughts!

[StarStruck]

It doesn't cause lack of oxygen, you actually get more oxygen in your system through the quick breathing. It seems like you don't understand how it works.

[Jodistrict]

29 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

It doesn't cause lack of oxygen, you actually get more oxygen in your system through the quick breathing. It seems like you don't understand how it works.

The  SpO2 goes down during the breath hold - where you fully expel all air and then hold.  You can verify this by putting a pulse oxymeter on your finger

[StarStruck]

1 minute ago, Jodistrict said:

The  SpO2 goes down during the breath hold - where you fully expel all air and then hold.  You can verify this by putting a pulse oxymeter on your finger

If you aren't healthy you shouldn't do breath hold for 1,5 minutes. But for somebody who is healthy it is do-able. I usually don't do it in the shower or bath but on the bed, does Wim recommend you do it in ice baths?

[Jodistrict]

1 minute ago, StarStruck said:

If you aren't healthy you shouldn't do breath hold for 1,5 minutes. But for somebody who is healthy it is do-able. I usually don't do it in the shower or bath but on the bed, does Wim recommend you do it in ice baths?

This ice bath is for 2-3 minutes.  I was instructed to just breath deeply.  

[StarStruck]

2 minutes ago, Jodistrict said:

This ice bath is for 2-3 minutes.  I was instructed to just breath deeply.  

Before going in you should do the shenanigans with breathing in-out and breath hold. Not during it as far as I remember.

[SQAAD]

@undeather

19 hours ago, undeather said:

 

Undeather i'm really surprised by your responses my man...  Impressive..

I don't quite understand what you meant here in the following 3 paragraphs below. Could you please make it somewhat more understandable & simpler for me please? Lastly what is the reason that deep breathing gets us high while normal breathing not? 

Thank you for your time. Much appreciated.

Quote

 However, the decrease in total cebreal blood volume is not concordant, indicating a decrease in blood-stream velocity. This is important. Also, your intracranial pressure goes down during that phase, which also adds to the symptoms you experience. 

. Fainting is one of those safety mechanisms because it immedieatly stops any concious overwrite (like deliberate deep/long breaths) of put's you flat on the floor (equalizing gravitational forces throughout the body). 

When somebody puts you in choke-hold - you pass out. Is the underlying cause a "lack of oxygen"? - No! It's an automated mechanism due to a neurologically induced drop in blood pressure and/or a decrease in heart rate. This phenomenon is called reflex/vasovagal-syncope. You could argue that this is an relative decrease in oxygen but not an absolute - however, absolute lack is what counts! 

 

[undeather]

Quote

 However, the decrease in total cebreal blood volume is not concordant, indicating a decrease in blood-stream velocity. This is important. Also, your intracranial pressure goes down during that phase, which also adds to the symptoms you experience. 

When you do your deep & fast breaths, the arteries in your head will constrict  (=vasoconstriction), which is a normal physiological response. Now imagine we put your head in a f-MRI machine and measure the blood volume in your brain while you are doing the exercise. We would notice that the amount of total blood volume is actually not decreasing as much as the increase in vasoconstriction would indicate - that's only possible if the blood flow slows down in general and this has some very important impact on oxygenation. As your arteries narrow, your ICP (intracranial pressure aka the pressure in your skull) goes down - we know that a sudden decrease in ICP can cause symptoms like light-headedness and even euphoria. 

This is pretty advanced physiology - most doctors would have no clue about it. It's not important to understand,really  

Quote

. Fainting is one of those safety mechanisms because it immedieatly stops any concious overwrite (like deliberate deep/long breaths) of put's you flat on the floor (equalizing gravitational forces throughout the body). 

Your body doesn't need concious control. All vital, vegetative functions like breathing,  digesting, even urination etc.  work completely on their own and don't need any kind of deliberate interference. Most of the day, breathing just happens in the background and you dont even notice it for the most part. However, self-conciousness allows some top-down control: Let's imagine you could hold your breath until you pass out. That would be a "concious overwrite" over the mostly unconcious drive to breathe. The body would send you signals like air hunger - but you could definitely fight against those. At some point however, you will shut down and go unconcious - as soon as this happens, automatic vegetative functions will regain control and your body will breathe at exactly the speed & intensity it needs. If you would not faint, you could pontentially hold your breath until you suddenly drop dead. That wouldn't be very smart, right? So in that context, fainting is a safety mechanism that keeps "you" from killing yourself!

Equalizing gravitational forces means that your heart always has to pump blood UP your brain, which is at the highest point of your body. So it needs to pump hard enough so it can overcame gravitational forces which exert a downwards pull. When you pass out, you usually end up flat on the floor. This means that there are no more gravitational forces to overcome and it's easier for your body to distribute blood. 

Quote

When somebody puts you in choke-hold - you pass out. Is the underlying cause a "lack of oxygen"? - No! It's an automated mechanism due to a neurologically induced drop in blood pressure and/or a decrease in heart rate. This phenomenon is called reflex/vasovagal-syncope. You could argue that this is an relative decrease in oxygen but not an absolute - however, absolute lack is what counts! 

Let's imagine you visit a BJJ-class and the beautiful female instructor puts you in a chokehold and starts to squeeze really hard. This would cut off the main blood supply from your brain and result in an abrupt decrease in blood pressure above the choking point. In your brain & throat there are sensors that would register such drop in blood pressure and activate the saftey mechanism: which is you pass out! Your brain doesn't know you are getting chocked. It registers a "low blood"-situation and wants equalize as fast as possible. This does not mean however, that you are lacking oxygen - the lack of oxygen is not the cause for you going unconcious. 

[SQAAD]

@undeather

12 hours ago, undeather said:

When you do your deep & fast breaths, the arteries in your head will constrict  (=vasoconstriction), which is a normal physiological response. Now imagine we put your head in a f-MRI machine and measure the blood volume in your brain while you are doing the exercise. We would notice that the amount of total blood volume is actually not decreasing as much as the increase in vasoconstriction would indicate - that's only possible if the blood flow slows down in general and this has some very important impact on oxygenation. As your arteries narrow, your ICP (intracranial pressure aka the pressure in your skull) goes down - we know that a sudden decrease in ICP can cause symptoms like light-headedness and even euphoria. 

This is pretty advanced physiology - most doctors would have no clue about it. It's not important to understand,really  

Your body doesn't need concious control. All vital, vegetative functions like breathing,  digesting, even urination etc.  work completely on their own and don't need any kind of deliberate interference. Most of the day, breathing just happens in the background and you dont even notice it for the most part. However, self-conciousness allows some top-down control: Let's imagine you could hold your breath until you pass out. That would be a "concious overwrite" over the mostly unconcious drive to breathe. The body would send you signals like air hunger - but you could definitely fight against those. At some point however, you will shut down and go unconcious - as soon as this happens, automatic vegetative functions will regain control and your body will breathe at exactly the speed & intensity it needs. If you would not faint, you could pontentially hold your breath until you suddenly drop dead. That wouldn't be very smart, right? So in that context, fainting is a safety mechanism that keeps "you" from killing yourself!

Equalizing gravitational forces means that your heart always has to pump blood UP your brain, which is at the highest point of your body. So it needs to pump hard enough so it can overcame gravitational forces which exert a downwards pull. When you pass out, you usually end up flat on the floor. This means that there are no more gravitational forces to overcome and it's easier for your body to distribute blood. 

Let's imagine you visit a BJJ-class and the beautiful female instructor puts you in a chokehold and starts to squeeze really hard. This would cut off the main blood supply from your brain and result in an abrupt decrease in blood pressure above the choking point. In your brain & throat there are sensors that would register such drop in blood pressure and activate the saftey mechanism: which is you pass out! Your brain doesn't know you are getting chocked. It registers a "low blood"-situation and wants equalize as fast as possible. This does not mean however, that you are lacking oxygen - the lack of oxygen is not the cause for you going unconcious. 

just Incredible....!!!

So what you mean is that deep breathing results in lower oxygen levels in the brain but not in a significant & dangerous way? I don't quite understand this part. 

What if you do deep breathing without any breatholds? Are the breathholds really necessary?

What if i want to do 30 deep breaths and then stop & just breath normally? Is that okay too?

Thank you.

 

Edited August 5, 2023 by SQAAD

[undeather]

Quote

So what you mean is that deep breathing results in lower oxygen levels in the brain but not in a significant & dangerous way? I don't quite understand this part. 

Yes, that's very simplified but you could put it that way! 

 

Quote

 

What if you do deep breathing without any breatholds? Are the breathholds really necessary?

What if i want to do 30 deep breaths and then stop & just breath normally? Is that okay too?

 

 

Difficult to tell if it's necessary. Personally, I would include the breathhold - it's just the way the exercise is set up in the first place. 
Maybe a complete breathhold is necessary to induce certain physiological changes - I don't know that. 

Maybe try it out and notice any subjective differences. 
 

[SQAAD]

@undeather @undeather

18 hours ago, undeather said:

Yes, that's very simplified but you could put it that way! 

 

 

Difficult to tell if it's necessary. Personally, I would include the breathhold - it's just the way the exercise is set up in the first place. 
Maybe a complete breathhold is necessary to induce certain physiological changes - I don't know that. 

Maybe try it out and notice any subjective differences. 
 

Do you believe not including the breathhold could be somewhat dangerous? What's your take on it?

I've seen Andrew Huberman recommending 10-15 deep breaths for a quick burst of energy without breathhold.

You said that when you do breathold CO2 slowly raises & pH drops... but if i just breath normally after 30 breaths, won't the same process happen???

I have done deep breathing without breatholds for like 2 hours few years ago. It cleansed me of some real deep trauma. I was crying for days afterwards. Very very therapeutic.

I also know that Whim Hof has done deep breathing for hours also.

Do you think doing many many deep breaths without any breathhold could be dangerous? (I am talking in the context of being wise and listening to your body)

Thank you for your time sir.

 

[undeather]

Quote

Do you believe not including the breathhold could be somewhat dangerous? What's your take on it?

No, that would not be dangerous. Dont' worry about minor stuff like that.

 

Quote

You said that when you do breathold CO2 slowly raises & pH drops... but if i just breath normally after 30 breaths, won't the same process happen???

Kinda but not exactly. 

If you keep breathing with a normal pace, your CO2 will slowly come up towards your "normal" level and equalize at that point.

If you do a breathhold, the same process will happen faster (since there is no gas exchange at all) and at some point it will tip over into a hypercapnic state (higher CO2 than usual) and a measureable decrease in blood O2. Again, this is not dangerous per se but might actually trigger benificial physiolgoical adaptions like reduced inflammation. 

Thats why I suggested doing it with breathholds! 

 

Quote

Do you think doing many many deep breaths without any breathhold could be dangerous?

If you practice it in a safe environment (i.e not in your bathtub) and don't suffer from a severe cardiovascular condition (heart-condition or out of whack blood pressure etc.) - then I don't think this will be very dangerous. Listen to your body and do it under your own responsibility. As you mentioned, it Can be very healing.