I Asked Peter Ralston About Psychedelics, Here Is His Response...

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, ValiantSalvatore said:

There is still immense value if you "trust/believe" in what Wilber writes and just the general stages of enlightenment when I consider death.

I have no idea what this means.

[Water by the River]

55 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It takes so much consciousness and independence-of-mind to see through Buddhism. Which is why I warn about it. I am vocal about it because no one else is and it's so easy to overlook.

Easy to overlook that 99,9%+ of Buddhists are not enlightened, and at least 99% of Buddhist teachers on the spiritual market place are not fully enlightened? Yes, the "success rate" of the Buddhist project is not good, not to say abysmal... But its a long journey over many (dream-)lifes, and the other spiritual systems/traditions are also not more successful. 

And for the "masses", Buddhism teaches mainly compassion & love & integration into the world/society/other beings, or generally staying open and loving to all that appears in Ones True Being/Reality, which is the same as living a healthy life on the relative level. Dream? Yes, but a dream more on the happy side and not a nightmare-dream. Which is probably precisely what most souls need to learn in this round of the game. And which is necessary to stabilize Awakening. A big part of the Gateless Gate is made out of compassion. I myself was also like "hey, wake up, that is all relative-level-stuff, go directly to Awakening and so on, why so much about this Boddhichitta and compassion-teaching stuff and why not more emphasis on the real Awakening-teachings?", but over the years as I got older that changed a bit....

Ken Wilber once said in One Taste:

"First, although it is generally true that the East has produced a greater number of authentic realizers, nonetheless, the actual percentage of the Eastern population that is engaged in authentic transformative spirituality is, and always has been, pitifully small. I once asked Katagiri Roshi, with whom I had my first breakthrough (hopefully, not a breakdown), how many truly great Ch’an and Zen masters there have historically been. Without hesitating, he said, “Maybe one thousand altogether.” I asked another Zen master how many truly enlightened—deeply enlightened— Japanese Zen masters there were alive today, and he said, “Not more than a dozen.” (that statement from Katagiri was at least 30 years ago, probably rather 40. Nowadays its more for sure (and that quote should not cause any limiting belief), but still shows that one should not take the "Enlightenment" of the next Zen Teacher as the final thing. Chances are way higher that it isn't).

Most Enlightenments/Awakenings are not full/deep Enlightenment (in Zen called Great Enlightenment), where there is no more doubt about the nature of Reality, God, Ones True Self.

Water by the River

 

@Leo Gura PS: Deep respect from my side concerning your last blog-post. That takes a very high degree of Integrity, Self-Reflection, and above all staying open. Very(!) few people could do something like that. So really deep respect for that, and hopefully I am not coming across in any way condescending or jovial in any way, because that is not intended. Whatever caused your suffering, I wish you all the best and a swift end of suffering, and a fast return to the bliss & pioneering exploration of the higher realms/dimensions!

PSPS: Maybe you already know some of that material, but if not you will probably find these books quite interesting:

• Jaques Vallee, Passport to Magonia: From Folklore to Flying Saucers Paperback
• Graham Hancock, Supernatural
• Charles Upton, The Alien Disclosure Deception: The Metaphysics of Social Engineering. Although some of that stuff is in my opinion too deeply infused with Traditionalist School (perennialism) of Guénon, Coomaraswamy and Schuon, still a very interesting perspective.
• Jürgen Ziewe (Out of body explorer over 40 years, with valid Enlightenment-experience-descriptions)
  • for example:
    •  http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Model_of_the_Multidimensional_Universe.html
    • http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Life_after_death_-_a_description_of_the_afterlife.html
    • http://www.multidimensionalman.com/Multidimensional-Man/Higher_Mental_Planes_or_Heaven_Worlds.html

 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Water by the River

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

But it took me many years to realize that because Buddhists know how to play a great spiritual game.

What do you mean by this? 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

It takes so much consciousness and independence-of-mind to see through Buddhism. Which is why I warn about it. I am vocal about it because no one else is and it's so easy to overlook.

Yes, but the only thing you say is that Buddhism is false and that enlightenment is imaginary, without explaining any of it. what value does that have? explain it and that's it, just once at least. 

[Leo Gura]

50 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Easy to overlook that 99,9%+ of Buddhists are not enlightened

Whether they are or aren't, they are still not talking about what I am talking about. We're just talking about different things.

No doubt that deeply embodied, masterful spiritual teachers are rare. But that's not what I'm talking about or concerned with.

14 minutes ago, Buck Edwards said:

What do you mean by this? 

Buddhism places such as strong emphasis on training people to act pious and spiritual that once they have been so trained it comes very difficult for a student to look at that and say, "But that's not getting to the core of CONSCIOUSNESS!"

14 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yes, but the only thing you say is that Buddhism is false and that enlightenment is imaginary, without explaining any of it. what value does that have? explain it and that's it, just once at least. 

It requires a whole course to explain. Which I'm half-way done with outlining.

But ultimately you can still use what I said to guide yourself beyond Buddhism. The bottom line is, Buddhism is imaginary and you can go beyond it if you just start questioning it deeply and using psychedelics. My ultimate advice is to tell you to question everything, of which Buddhism is just one part. There's nothing special about Buddhism. It must be questioned just like every other system of human thought.

My method is just the insane questioning of everything that exists, and really using your mind in that questioning rather than shutting it off. How do you even know the Buddha was Conscious? People don't question these things.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

My method is just the insane questioning of everything that exists

if it is a thought system, obviously it must be questioned and taken only as a possible inspiration, interesting curiosity, and nothing more. but in the case of Buddhism it is difficult to say whether it is a system of thought. Zen Buddhism is not a system of thought but a meditative practice aimed at opening to infinity, in which the teachers, once that opening is achieved, expose their ideas, perceptions, to help other aspirants to achieve the same goal. each teacher says different things and there is no immovable dogma. So where is the falsehood? perhaps in that the depth of the realizations of the masters are not enough? It depends which teachers. nothing should be taken literally but as inspiration, only direct experience is worth, then, does Buddhism hinder, block, the possibilities of opening to infinity of the aspirant, or does it help?

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

but in the case of Buddhism it is difficult to say whether it is a system of thought. Zen Buddhism is not a system of thought

This is where I would suggest that you contemplate and think deeper. Buddhism is a sneaky and strong thought system, despite its pretenses to "no-mind" and so on.

The irony is that it takes a lot of thinking to convince yourself that Buddhism is the ultimate path to Truth. And if you didn't do that then you wouldn't be a Buddhist nor would you hold Buddhism in high regard. You have to think in order to admire Buddhism. And then when I come along and viciously attack your Buddhist ways, you gotta do a lot of thinking to defend yourself.

So this is very, very sneaky.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Leo Gura

[UnbornTao]

@Leo Gura

You're holding enlightenment as a "thing" (relative), that is presumably mediated by brain chemistry. If it's absolute, it isn't a thing. Do you think enlightenment "happens" when the right chemicals are in place? Is enlightenment lost after the "right" chemicals change? You may be talking about a change in state, which is always temporary.

His work is also aimed at understanding the relative domain -- transformation, healing, empowerment. Peter isn't saying that certain activities can't help or that they're useless, but that nothing produces direct consciousness but you.

Exactly, he's saying just that: nothing -- no activity, process, method or accomplishment -- can take you to the absolute because enlightenment isn't relative nor is it a process. Nothing done within a dream can wake you up. Best you can do is contemplate with the intent to make a leap in consciousness which is always direct.

The point is that the brain, genetics, methods are irrelevant here. By that logic, without the pertinent chemistry, awakening can't occur, which is silly. There's no such thing as requisites to awakening, except you personally becoming conscious.

Edited August 4, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Exactly, he's saying just that: nothing can take you to consciousness because it isn't a process. Nothing done within a dream can wake you up.

This is precisely false.

DMT will take you to consciousness. End of story.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is where I would suggest that you contemplate and think deeper. Buddhism is a sneaky and strong thought system, despite its pretenses to "no-mind" and so on.

The irony is that it takes a lot of thinking to convince yourself that Buddhism is the ultimate path to Truth. And if you didn't do that then you wouldn't be a Buddhist nor would you hold Buddhism in high regard. You have to think in order to admire Buddhism. And then when I come along and viciously attack your Buddhist ways, you gotta do a lot of thinking to defend yourself.

So this is very, very sneaky.

Short form quote above Buddhist-style:  If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him.

Short form quote above Advaita style: The spiritual search is like a stick that you use to move everything into the fire, and that it itself get's thrown in the fire at very the end.

Short form quote above Zen style: The old pond, A frog jumps in: Plop!

Water by the River

[Leo Gura]

@Water by the River Those platitudes and cliches are not the same thing as seeing through Buddhism.

See, you had to think just to generate those defenses. And it wasn't any kind of deep, serious, original thinking.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

Uuum, lets assume Reality is infinite intelligent. Meaning Impersonal Infinite Consciousness manifests an Intelligence that holds Indras Net in itself, infinitely intelligent.

And lets assume that:

“Enlightenment is an accident. But we can make ourselves more accident prone.” 

So Reality wants a certain mindstream/states(like boundless timeless infinite mere appearance infinite consciousness)/not-too-unloving-personality/maybe certain other stuff also... : The making oneself accident prone. And then the accident can happen. Its not for the separate-self to decide when precisely that happens.

Like I wrote before, there are self-guarding mechanisms of Reality. Reality apparently doesn't want too many enlightened uncompassionate egotists basking 24/7 in the bliss of their true nature.

And True Nature = bliss = shutting off the self-contraction in ones head, making the whole field groundless mere appearance floating in infinity, and infinite release a the snap of ones finger. That is just how it is, although many apparently don't like to hear it.

Water by the River

Edited August 4, 2023 by Water by the River

[Water by the River]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Water by the River Those platitudes and cliches are not the same thing as seeing through Buddhism.

It depends on who says these platitudes. From a certain perspective, they are very true.

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

See, you had to think just to generate those defenses. And it wasn't any kind of deep, serious thinking.

. Indeed, I didn't have to do deep and serious thinking to come up with these statements. Because for me, and within Buddhism also, it is very clear that at some point the whole(!) conceptual(!) structure of Buddhism must be cut off/transcended/negated also. But better not before that point. That would be the Tony-Parson exit of the road up the mountain.

Water by the River

[Javfly33]

5 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

And True Nature = bliss = shutting off the self-contraction in ones head, making the whole field groundless mere appearance floating in infinity, and infinite release a the snap of ones finger. That is just how it is, although many apparently don't like here it.

Is the ego's nature unfortunately. 

I´m tired of saying: the mind will always keep you in circles, even if this are refined, profound circles, just elegant entanglement, of understanding and profoundness, one of the sneakiest traps to escape, we all at one point pass through that one. 

 

Edited August 4, 2023 by Javfly33

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Because for me, and within Buddhism also, it is very clear that at some point the whole(!) conceptual(!) structure of Buddhism must be cut off/transcended/negated also.

I am saying something deeper which you and all your Buddhists are missing. Because you're not seriously thinking.

When you say you have transcended or negated Buddhism, you haven't. It still runs your whole mind and worldview.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I am saying something deeper which you and all your Buddhists are missing. Because you're not seriously thinking.

hey, I wrote many times I don't consider myself "a" Buddhist.  Exactly because of the problems with the buddhISM you write about (and which are true for most other -ISMs also), and the rather not too many enlightened ones in the -ISM without the B. at the beginning.

Although I have some rather tender feelings for that show of mine (B.-ISM) happening in Big Me. Sorry. Stepped too much on the absolute side of the street.

Water by the River

 

5 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Because you're not seriously thinking.

True, I try to mostly practice not-so-serious-thinking nowadays.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Water by the River

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

I try to mostly practice not-so-serious-thinking nowadays.

There's the rub.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am saying something deeper which you and all your Buddhists are missing. Because you're not seriously thinking.

what you say is that you realized that reality is limitless and because that its an infinite mind, infinite intelligence, infinite love, that we call god, and you are that.  realizing that, as deeper as possible, is the spiritual work. but what we are discussing about Buddhism is whether Buddhism is expressing exactly the same thing in a more subtle way. In some cases it would be said yes. Btw, my knowledge about Buddhism is superficial, just some readings. 

[Leo Gura]

@Breakingthewall A better way to put it is that there is a very wide and deep scope to the comprehension and experience of Consciousness, and Buddhism is tapping into a narrow band of that. And if you want to access more you will have to free yourself of it.

I'm getting tired of talking about this.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Water by the River]

41 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

Is the ego's nature unfortunately. 

I´m tired of saying: the mind will always keep you in circles, even if this are refined, profound circles, just elegant entanglement, of understanding and profoundness, one of the sneakiest traps to escape, we all at one point pass through that one. 

 

Yes. I learned here to my amazement that telling about the possiblity of

• opening up infinite bliss and release when the egoic self-contraction is dissolved/shut down (literally a contraction mostly felt in the head, and only felt as having been there when its gone),  the ignorant/wrong concepts are cut off, and the solidity of the visual field is replaced with mere appearance/clear light, in an Infinite Opening of Reality without any possible limits, and telling of
• the bliss that that brings on a permanent basis whenever accessing True Nature (which is always here and can not not be here)...

...that all of that is supposedly not possible. Although I have the verification of exactly that every day. And although thousands of people across all times, centuries and cultures, across all wisdom traditions, tell the same.

Honestly, what is left of small-me really rejoices in Big Me of the fact that "I" can verify that for myself without needing anything or anyone, or experiencing anything. Especially, i don't need any kind of -ISM anymore, which can only point the the moon, act as pointer. 

IT, or the "moon",  is always right here. Can not not be here. And will eternally be here. Never lost, never found, only overlooked and clouded with ignorance and some other funny arisings hiding the Truth.

Well, apparently every being is free to hug the spokes of the wheel of Samsara the egoic self-contraction, declare it God (and not contained within God), and affirm its inherent nature of suffering as the only spiritual goal possible, declaring that un-Truth as summum bonum. Well done, I know a gentlemen with style that would be proud of that....

Well, God & Gods & Gentlement with style don't seem to get tired of playing that game anytime soon. Until then, lets enjoy the show...

And now, annoying Water-by-the-River, would you please s*** **? 

Selling Water by the River

Edited August 4, 2023 by Water by the River