Why Leave The Park?

[Emerald]

7 hours ago, jip said:

I feel kinda twisted about it to be honest. I've listened to Leo's enlightenment faqs 10-15 times so the idea that enlightenment is the best thing since sliced bread and everyone should become enlightened is pretty much drilled into my mind, but i also find Jeds arguments for not leaving the park very convincing, for he has been both in and out the park. Other authors like Peter Ralston and Ken Wilber don't really adres this whole issue, and only say that it will "liberate" you. Adyashanti also says the same but also states clearly that truth has nothing to do with becoming better or happier.  

 

Unity Consiousness is not the same as Truth Realization/Enlightenment...

Leo said the same in some of his videos but i don't know if thats true. I see happiness more like air; you only really care about it when you don't have it.

 

By the way, how far are you guys willing to take this enlightenment shit? If for example, your mom got raped and killed in a brutal way, or if you heard today that you only got a couple days left to live, would you still care about enlightenment? Would you say: "oh nevermind, death is just an illusion created by the mind"?

Just curious, feel free to answer whatever's on your mind.

I have had two experiences of ego-transcendence, so I speak from personal experience. If something tragic were to happen, it isn't as though an enlightened person would feel no emotion. In fact, during my experiences I experienced joy, anger, sadness, rage, and many other emotions. But all the emotions were more intense and beautiful, while at the same time they didn't make me lose clarity and equanimity. So, the ego wouldn't get in the way of taking right action. You would still totally care if your mother was harmed in some way. You would feel even more compassion that you're capable of now. But emotions get processed through effortlessly, because even negative emotions are part of divine order and you feel it. 

The issue here is that you're trying to understand enlightenment from your current paradigm, so it doesn't compute properly. It's like trying to load Microsoft Word into a toaster. It isn't going to work because it isn't compatible with your current state of mind. It sounds very abstract and impractical, but it is anything but abstract when you live it. It is very practical and the benefits (if you'd had them) you wouldn't want to go back to identifying with ego. It is the only state of being that unconditional love is possible from... at least from my experience. So, because I'm not enlightened but I've glimpsed enlightenment, there's a strange sort of desperation that I have to get back. This attachment is something that I need to work through, if I want to really get there. 

[Emerald]

15 hours ago, jjer94 said:

I think what you may be confused about are the negative connotations that come along with nihilism. Critics of nihilism often say, "Well, everything is meaningless, doesn't that mean I should kill myself?" When that is an interpretive overlay to nihilism. Yes, life is meaningless, but the fact that life is meaningless has no meaning. Life just is. 

Nihilism and enlightenment are more closely related than you think. Basic nihilism is just the belief that life is meaningless, and part of enlightenment is the experiential realization of this. Nihilism is a perspective. Enlightenment is not a perspective, but rather, the removal of all perspectives so that Truth remains. 

I see. That makes sense. I always assumed that nihilists were pessimistic about the emptiness of phenomena and thus unconsciously ascribing meanings to their belief in no meaning. Perhaps this isn't always true. But it would still seem to me that McKenna's words indicate an abstract, conceptual knowledge of emptiness, but not a firsthand experience. At least, I could say that his interpretations of the experience, differ from my memories of my own. Calling enlightenment "life-negative" and saying that it has "nothing to do" with love, compassion, happiness, heaven on earth, etc. just doesn't jibe with my experiences. He feels like someone with a lot of knowledge about non-duality, but not necessarily experience. That's just the vibe I get from what I've read. 

[jjer94]

Quote

But it would still seem to me that McKenna's words indicate an abstract, conceptual knowledge of emptiness, but not a firsthand experience. 

It seems that way from his books, but after personally communicating with him I found that not to be the case. I understand where you're coming from though. He does come at enlightenment from a somewhat conceptual realm. 

Quote

Calling enlightenment "life-negative" and saying that it has "nothing to do" with love, compassion, happiness, heaven on earth, etc. just doesn't jibe with my experiences.

Realize that all of the positive and negative attributes revolving around enlightenment are just interpretations, or side-effects, of the actual realization. Enlightenment just is. What happens after that is up in the air. Most of the time, you will exhibit the side-effects you described. Adyashanti thinks the realization is amazing and will improve your life tenfold. Same with Leo. However, people like Steven Norquist and Jed think the realization is life-negative, because you're basically dying without dropping the body. That's also probably because in their situations, they lost a lot of friends, family, and hobbies on the pathless path. There are many different ways the fingers describe the moon. 

Also, because your experiences were from drugs, they may not jibe perfectly with sober experience. In fact, you're experiencing non-dual awareness in your experience right now. You just don't see it for what it is. Look around for that sense of empty aliveness, the I AM, and you'll find it couched in every sense perception without boundaries. 

[Ayla]

Quote

If for example, your mom got raped and killed in a brutal way, or if you heard today that you only got a couple days left to live, would you still care about enlightenment? 

I think that each of those circumstances would have the "force" to wake one up instantly

And to answer your question - there's no "caring about" enlightenment. When you are in the fire of it, nobody can save you. No matter what you do and how (the heck) you try to escape it, it burns your whole being! There's no going away from it because you ARE it and you feel THAT from the air you breathe, to the cells of your body... 

Here... 

[Emerald]

5 hours ago, jjer94 said:

It seems that way from his books, but after personally communicating with him I found that not to be the case. I understand where you're coming from though. He does come at enlightenment from a somewhat conceptual realm. 

Realize that all of the positive and negative attributes revolving around enlightenment are just interpretations, or side-effects, of the actual realization. Enlightenment just is. What happens after that is up in the air. Most of the time, you will exhibit the side-effects you described. Adyashanti thinks the realization is amazing and will improve your life tenfold. Same with Leo. However, people like Steven Norquist and Jed think the realization is life-negative, because you're basically dying without dropping the body. That's also probably because in their situations, they lost a lot of friends, family, and hobbies on the pathless path. There are many different ways the fingers describe the moon. 

Also, because your experiences were from drugs, they may not jibe perfectly with sober experience. In fact, you're experiencing non-dual awareness in your experience right now. You just don't see it for what it is. Look around for that sense of empty aliveness, the I AM, and you'll find it couched in every sense perception without boundaries. 

That makes a lot of sense. I know that my emotions didn't go away during my experiences, so I would have likely still felt negative emotion had I sacrificed family and friends to become enlightened. It's just that I would likely have sensed that negative emotion as an inextricable part of the divinity inherent in all of nature and recognized it as empty of negative meaning in the grand scheme of things. Currently, I am unconscious of this phenomena, but have only a memory of experiencing that. So, perhaps one in that state of mind could interpret the experience in the way that McKenna does. To experience the I AM, do you have any recommendations for processes that you used to become more aware of it?

Edited February 15, 2016 by Emerald Wilkins

[jip]

@mkieblesz thx man, great post.

13 hours ago, mkieblesz said:

Just to summarize, correct me if I'm wrong, I believe there is 100% consensus in group of people who travelled this journey whether their advice is directed for people who are going to leave the park on stay inside.

1. It never hurts to check your assumptions or in other words to think for yourself.

2. They would rather live few days of life knowing what they know than 30 years of human regular life - they usually don't waste their words on describing beauty so they just say that. On the other hand using thought to cut through the bullshit is very useful in our case.

3. NO ONE WANT'S TO COME BACK (not that they can actually).

 

1. sure thinking a lot about it, couldn't really sleep at all last night

2. who are they? and what's so bad about regular human life? it can sure suck if you're depressed or stuck in some boring job, but it can also be pretty amazing is my experience.

3. okay, but does that necessarily mean that it's "better"? i guess it's all a matter of perspective..

5 hours ago, Pinocchio said:

Which brings you back to the real question at hand: What do YOU want. What is all this about for you, what is it that compels you to get interested in all this shit. What are you hoping for.

Well, since i don't really know who i am, how can i know what i want? What compels me to this? I would certainly like to know the truth, but not at any price, at least not right now. Leo's claim that this is the only way to find true happiness and peace of mind also strikes me a bit, and i think that's certainly true to some extend, but i also think jed has a good point that it takes all the amusement out of the amusement park. I also find it just fascinating how all this shit works, and see how strong Maya is in myself and other people, society, and even this forum, are pretty much completely under her control if you take a look. (As much as enlightenment is talked about and how great it is, how many of us are actually gonna wake up? Very very few, is my guess, if any.) Not to say there is anything wrong with it, i think it's perfectly fine.

[A way to Actualize]

8 minutes ago, jip said:

@mkieblesz thx man, great post.

1. sure thinking a lot about it, couldn't really sleep at all last night

2. who are they? and what's so bad about regular human life? it can sure suck if you're depressed or stuck in some boring job, but it can also be pretty amazing is my experience.

3. okay, but does that necessarily mean that it's "better"? i guess it's all a matter of perspective..

Well, since i don't really know who i am, how can i know what i want? What compels me to this? I would certainly like to know the truth, but not at any price, at least not right now. Leo's claim that this is the only way to find true happiness and peace of mind also strikes me a bit, and i think that's certainly true to some extend, but i also think jed has a good point that it takes all the amusement out of the amusement park. I also find it just fascinating how all this shit works, and see how strong Maya is in myself and other people, society, and even this forum, are pretty much completely under her control if you take a look. (As much as enlightenment is talked about and how great it is, how many of us are actually gonna wake up? Very very few, is my guess, if any.) Not to say there is anything wrong with it, i think it's perfectly fine.

If you want to go for all other things than enlightenment, then go do it.

It is the best way to realize that those stuff won't make you fulfilled eventually.

When you have done all that. Enlightenment is a thing that you become interested in.

Enlightenment is more a thing that you are willing to let go of an concept to flow in authenticity and service to endless wisdom. I had an insight last day that the reason enlightenment is seen as meaningless, is the scarcity for being so fulfilled in every moment. I think meaningless is not the right word, more pure emptiness of love/true self is the right word.

I advise to just get accostumed to the Idea of enlightenment and experiences. Just enjoy your experience while your life eventually gets there. If not this life.

self-love is a not so painful way to get there.

If you want to have fun in the park, go do it! No one is holding you back.

[Emerald]

2 hours ago, jip said:

@mkieblesz thx man, great post.

1. sure thinking a lot about it, couldn't really sleep at all last night

2. who are they? and what's so bad about regular human life? it can sure suck if you're depressed or stuck in some boring job, but it can also be pretty amazing is my experience.

3. okay, but does that necessarily mean that it's "better"? i guess it's all a matter of perspective..

Well, since i don't really know who i am, how can i know what i want? What compels me to this? I would certainly like to know the truth, but not at any price, at least not right now. Leo's claim that this is the only way to find true happiness and peace of mind also strikes me a bit, and i think that's certainly true to some extend, but i also think jed has a good point that it takes all the amusement out of the amusement park. I also find it just fascinating how all this shit works, and see how strong Maya is in myself and other people, society, and even this forum, are pretty much completely under her control if you take a look. (As much as enlightenment is talked about and how great it is, how many of us are actually gonna wake up? Very very few, is my guess, if any.) Not to say there is anything wrong with it, i think it's perfectly fine.

Waking up and not waking up are equally valuable endeavors. So, choosing to "stay in the park" may be appropriate for most people. That said, one thing I realized during my experience is how much struggling/suffering I endure as a constant backdrop during life to the point where I don't realize it... like a fish unaware that it is in water. Any happy moment is always spiked with this background sense of unease. I only realize it now through contrast with my experiences. So, there is no true peace of mind when immersed in the average perspective. Of course, there are degrees and levels of consciousness within the average perspective, so freeing yourself from some illusions will make life more livable even if you don't reach full-blown enlightenment. So, doing consciousness work is worth pursuing, even if you're uneasy about the idea of full-blown enlightenment.

[Avi]

@jjer94 What you said reminds me of the 10 pictures of the ox. 

[Leo Gura]

On 2/14/2016 at 10:43 AM, jip said:

How are you so sure it is that great? I think jed would be the first one to say if it really were.

1) Because I've had an experience of it.

2) Jed over-emphasizes the burning-your-ego-to-the-ground aspect of the journey. That part is painful and frustrating of course. But the end result is heavenly. You can clearly see that he himself is living in heaven, describing to the read the hellish path he took to get there.

And, btw, not everyone's path is hellish like Jed's. His path seems to have been exceptionally challenging. This doesn't have to be the case. And in fact for most people it is not that bad.

[Leo Gura]

This entire thread is just the old Zen parable about the 3 blind men describing the elephant. Ever heard of that one? Go read it.

All this talk about who is right and who is wrong is a distraction. Sit down and discover for yourself what you actually are.

From my own experiences, and having studied under half a dozen different highly enlightened masters from various schools, each with 30 or 40 years of experience, it all leads to the same place, just in different ways.

[Emerald]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

This entire thread is just the old Zen parable about the 3 blind men describing the elephant. Ever heard of that one? Good read it.

All this talk about who is right and who is wrong is a distraction. Sit down and discover for yourself what you are.

From my own experiences, and having studied under half a dozen different highly enlightened masters, each with 30 or 40 years of experience, it all leads to the same place, just in different ways.

The Sufi poem? 

[Leo Gura]

@Emerald Wilkins No, Zen

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Emerald Wilkins No, Zen

 

This is the one that I was talking about. I think it could apply similarly. 

[Leo Gura]

@Emerald Wilkins That's the one! I guess the Sufi's use it too.

Seems like it's Hindu in origin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_men_and_an_elephant

[Guest]

The wiki mentions this:

"However, if the story is used by someone as an analogy for religious relativism (namely, that all religions are equally true, since it is claimed that none can see the whole picture), it breaks down. The only way a person could know this fact is if they claimed to have an objective view on religious truth - that is, above all other views. This is of course, is self-refuting since the self-proclaimed relativist believes that there is at least one perspective that can see above all others, despite claiming that none can see the whole picture. In other words, the story of the five blind men is told from the perspective of someone who is not blind."

Can anyone break that down for me? How is it self-refuting? lol..

[jip]

13 hours ago, A way to Actualize said:

If you want to go for all other things than enlightenment, then go do it.

It is the best way to realize that those stuff won't make you fulfilled eventually.

So basically,  enlightenment is the only way to be fulfilled and unenlightened people are by definition not fulfilled? I don't know if thats true, but if you believe it to be so it will sure be your reality. But i don't think it will be a very helpful belief unless you are going all the way for enlightenment. Sure fulfillment from non-enlightenment things will be temporary and externally based, but so is everything in life. Even "enlightenment" will end when the body dies.

14 hours ago, A way to Actualize said:

If you want to have fun in the park, go do it! No one is holding you back.

I'll make sure to do before I leave

12 hours ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

Waking up and not waking up are equally valuable endeavors. So, choosing to "stay in the park" may be appropriate for most people. That said, one thing I realized during my experience is how much struggling/suffering I endure as a constant backdrop during life to the point where I don't realize it... like a fish unaware that it is in water. Any happy moment is always spiked with this background sense of unease. I only realize it now through contrast with my experiences. So, there is no true peace of mind when immersed in the average perspective. Of course, there are degrees and levels of consciousness within the average perspective, so freeing yourself from some illusions will make life more livable even if you don't reach full-blown enlightenment. So, doing consciousness work is worth pursuing, even if you're uneasy about the idea of full-blown enlightenment.

I don't know, won't "trying to become enlightened" just create more "suffering"?

11 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

1) Because I've had an experience of it.

2) Jed over-emphasizes the burning-your-ego-to-the-ground aspect of the journey. That part is painful and frustrating of course. But the end result is heavenly. You can clearly see that he himself is living in heaven, describing to the read the hellish path he took to get there.

And, btw, not everyone's path is hellish like Jed's. His path seems to have been exceptionally challenging. This doesn't have to be the case. And in fact for most people it is not that bad.

1) As you said in the faq, the permanent deal will probably be different, and you can't really know what it will be like until you go there.

2) Yeah i can see, but he also objects the heaven on earth analogy a lot.

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This entire thread is just the old Zen parable about the 3 blind men describing the elephant. Ever heard of that one? Go read it.

All this talk about who is right and who is wrong is a distraction. Sit down and discover for yourself what you actually are.

The same can be said for every thread here, and pretty much every action one takes besides looking inward

But i think it's good to know where all this is going before you start, before you know it, parts of you are gone and there is no going back. Now you might say that is a good thing, but is it? Who knows.

I was reading jeds last book, play, this morning and this excerpt from julie's autolysis illustrates the issue perfectly:

"What a life... I as a girl, a person, a daughter, a sister, a citizen. I had a life, friends, a career... all gone... plans, marriage, love, motherhood... all gone. Do i miss them?

(pause to consider)

No. There is no me left to miss anything. That part is gone."

 

This one is also quite on point, lol

"They don't tell you about this. They don't tell you because they don't know. But why don't they know? It's all so obvious. What could be more obvious than this? This is literally the most obvious possible thing. How is this, of all things, a mystery? Why don't they teach this in school?

History, math, science, are you kidding? Oh my god! Who could possibly care about any of that crap? How can they be so... so vapid? So unconscious? Is it some sort of joke? Some conspiracy? A conspiracy to do what? What is accomplished? What is the end result? Cui bono? Cui bono? All of humanity stays in a state of... rancid dismay, fatuous ignorance, bloated torpor..."

But then again, enlightened humanity would also be kinda silly. Not that it's gonna happen anytime soon

By the way Leo, i read you newsletter today. How are you ever going to reconcile success and self improvement with enlightenment? The whole idea of "success" is ego-based

[Emerald]

@jip Certainly, trying to become enlightened could cause suffering. But so could trying to become wealthy, attractive, worldly, a veterinarian, etc. The primary difference is that reaching enlightenment is alleviation from suffering while all other pursuits are just dressing up suffering. But the attempt at reaching enlightenment usually requires discipline, time investment, and sacrifice of all illusions. All other pursuits will require at least two of these anyway. So, why not invest the time and effort? All you really have to lose are concepts and illusions.

[step1]

2 hours ago, jip said:

 

"What a life... I as a girl, a person, a daughter, a sister, a citizen. I had a life, friends, a career... all gone... plans, marriage, love, motherhood... all gone. Do i miss them?

(pause to consider)

No. There is no me left to miss anything. That part is gone."

 

 

2 hours ago, jip said:

 

 ^^ What jip has quoted scares me.  I have parents that I am close to and I don't want to lose the love that I have for them as I think that would be selfish of me.  They are getting old now and I think as their final years come they will need my love more than ever.. 

 

At the same time though my ego is severely limiting me and has caused me a lot of problems over the past 10 years.  Really quite severe problems that have limited the potential of my life to the point where the once was guy that everyone thought would ace life is still at the drawing board at 31 years old.  I'm sick of having this ego but also I don't want to lose the bond I have with my family... 

[Emerald]

9 minutes ago, step1 said:

 

 ^^ What jip has quoted scares me.  I have parents that I am close to and I don't want to lose the love that I have for them as I think that would be selfish of me.  They are getting old now and I think as their final years come they will need my love more than ever.. 

 

At the same time though my ego is severely limiting me and has caused me a lot of problems over the past 10 years.  Really quite severe problems that have limited the potential of my life to the point where the once was guy that everyone thought would ace life is still at the drawing board at 31 years old.  I'm sick of having this ego but also I don't want to lose the bond I have with my family... 

Attachment and love are two totally different things. What you would have, if you transcended your ego, is unconditional love without attachment to all of existence. This means that you would love you parents far more than you were ever capable of loving them before. You also would have no fear of losing them, because you would realize that nothing truly dies and that everything is eternally connected. Also, any other fears you have would melt away. Don't let the abstract idea of enlightenment scare you away from the real deal. The real deal is truly amazing.