Why Leave The Park?

[Leo Gura]

@jip When I read Jed's books, I just take it all as drama. He's dramatizing enlightenment. He has a cocky arrogant style. The reality of enlightenment is a lot less dramatic and less terrible. One could also write a book about the wonderful aspects of enlightenment and frame it as a beautiful merging with God. Different teachers like to emphasize different aspects.

How will I reconcile enlightenment with success?

Easy. Enlightenment is what's true, and all success occurs within reality. So there's no problem.

I know an enlightened guy who's busy starting a real-estate business to buy a new Ferrari.

There is nothing that enlightenment really precludes.

I would assume that Jed himself is a successful millionaire now with all those published books. Does he have a problem reconciling it? I think not.

[Pierre]

Man, there's no problem with fully enjoying the Park. That's what we're here for. It's just that the ego won't let you do it...

So wake up, and go for the ride freely, no matter what happens.

[Ludwig]

37 minutes ago, Pierre said:

Man, there's no problem with fully enjoying the Park. That's what we're here for. It's just that the ego won't let you do it...

So wake up, and go for the ride freely, no matter what happens.

Yes, that's it. Finding the beauty and dignity, the utter perfection in every conditioned thing from a place of total freedom and abundance. Experience yourself in every possible way be it ever so mundane. Enjoy yourself. 

[Leo Gura]

Well said.

The nihilistic aspects of enlightenment is illusory. They are actually just signals of an incomplete realization. The nihilist forgets that he is ascribing a meaning to the meaninglessness of reality. If reality is truly meaningless, this isn't good or bad. It's meaningless.

I don't know about ya'll but I love this shit! What could be better and more beautiful than a pure blank canvas with no meaning? That's how I've always intuited reality to must be.

What would be truly shocking is if reality had meaning. << That would be fucked up.

So for me this is as exciting as it gets. Human chimpery is not nearly as exciting.

[Jan Odvarko]

I still struggle to grasp this. Some resources claim enlightenment is a permanent state from which there is no way back, some say they have experienced a couple of moments of enlightenment, which would suggest their consciousness must have then returned back to a lower level.

Do they each refer to different levels/experiences of enlightenment? Or do they maybe confuse enlightenment with self-realization?

[electroBeam]

@jip

 notThere is a subtle, yet profound double meaning occurring in Jeb's words, and it seems very clear to me that you haven't picked it up. Jeb himself didn't intend this double meaning, but its what you get from being enlightened.

This park Jeb talks about is fun, rides are fun, they generate lovely experiences, though these experiences of fear, excitement, you get from participating in a ride are generated from a false sense of separation, its YOU who may(irrationally) die because the ride is so scary, its YOU who is getting excited from all the bumps and crashes on the ride. This amusement park is fueled by duality. its an emotion, feeling, qualitative experiences of feelings, being generated by another emotion, feeling, thought<- your ego. Happiness in the amusement park isn't working towards your(who you truly are, awareness, not the ego) favour, in other words, its not free to spout out, because its being locked in other thoughts, feelings, the ego.

If you become enlightened though, you will not be in an amusement park anymore, you will not have beautiful experiences generated by duality, you will be living with a detachment of emotion and experiences, or you can exaggeratively describe it as a parking lot, you will be living in a world stripped with meaning.

And yet your brain and body will not care, because there is no thought/ego telling you that its bad. You will be liberated, with no meaning and happiness, just satisfaction and fulfillment, because there is suddenly no ego game to play anymore. You have, metaphorically completed the video game.

And tell me, you crave happiness, you constantly seek it, and being in a world with no happiness and no meaning seems awfully bleak and unattractive to you, but if I told you in this bleak world, you craved no relief of suffering, you did not crave happiness, because you were fulfilled and satisfied, because now you have no thoughts controlling you, is it also true then that this is really the place you want to be? Even though you get no happiness from it? It must be if your satisfaction makes you want to not leave it.

Maybe that's the true definition of happiness: unconditional satisfaction.

See you are currently in the ego game, and from that angle living without meaning and happiness seems unbearable. The thoughts that are currently in control of your life(I mean the ego and your world view) cannot survive without happiness and meaning, and so negative emotions spill out from the thought. But if you didn't have thoughts controlling you, trust me, you wouldn't give a damn if you were happy or not, as long as you were satisfied and fulfilled.

Edited February 17, 2016 by electroBeam

[Leo Gura]

Enlightenment is not a simple thing. After an enlightenment experience, the ego-mind usually still comes back, often times in full-force. It can takes years or decades for the enlightenment experience to percolate through the mind and rewire it. Most spiritual and personal development work only begins after the first few enlightenment experiences.

[jip]

@Emerald Wilkins I would suggest to first become enlightened and then perhaps talk a bit about how amazing and great it is.

17 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@jip When I read Jed's books, I just take it all as drama. He's dramatizing enlightenment. He has a cocky arrogant style. The reality of enlightenment is a lot less dramatic and less terrible. One could also write a book about the wonderful aspects of enlightenment and frame it as a beautiful merging with God. Different teachers like to emphasize different aspects.

How will I reconcile enlightenment with success?

Easy. Enlightenment is what's true, and all success occurs within reality. So there's no problem.

I know an enlightened guy who's busy starting a real-estate business to buy a new Ferrari.

There is nothing that enlightenment really precludes.

I would assume that Jed himself is a successful millionaire now with all those published books. Does he have a problem reconciling it? I think not.

I can see that the books are over dramatized, but he sure does say over and over again that almost nobody really wants enlightenment. How are you sure to know these other teachers are not just talking bullshit?

But what purpose does buying a Ferrari serve other then your own self-agenda? Not to say that it's wrong or something, but if a person has realized that he is not really the person but "the whole of existence", why would he still do things that only benefit the person?  I don't really get it, but could just be a misconception on my part. I haven't seen jed reconciling this, he only said that he didn't really cared about fame or fortune.

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Makis Well said.

The nihilistic aspects of enlightenment is illusory. They are actually just signals of an incomplete realization. The nihilist forgets that he is ascribing a meaning to the meaninglessness of reality. If reality is truly meaningless, this isn't good or bad. It's meaningless.

I don't know about ya'll but I love this shit! What could be better and more beautiful than a pure blank canvas with no meaning? That's how I've always intuited reality to must be.

What would be truly shocking is if reality had meaning. << That would be fucked up.

So for me this is as exciting as it gets. Human chimpery is not nearly as exciting.

Yeah i can see where your coming from, guess it's all a matter of perspective once again. Enlightenment and the fear of no-self is pretty fascinating anyway. didn't the book of not knowing/pursuing consciousness suggest to get rid of the emotion excitement?

[jjer94]

@jip

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Not to say that it's wrong or something, but if a person has realized that he is not really the person but "the whole of existence", why would he still do things that only benefit the person? 

Yes, it's a bit of a stretch, but let's flip it around: Why not? I mean, sure, you see through your ego. But you're at a costume party where everyone else is dressed up. You've gotta dress up as something. Why not have a little fun with it?

Why do you ride a carnival ride? For the ride, not for the teddy bear you get at the end. Why buy a ferrari? So you can ride around in it. The enlightened don't have any particular agenda with it besides having fun with it. They don't need it to be happy. Maybe it just intuitively felt right to buy one. 

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didn't the book of not knowing/pursuing consciousness suggest to get rid of the emotion excitement?

This is a trap you may want to watch out for. There's no need to remove any emotion. To try to remove an emotion would be to resist your present situation. The only thing you can do is become conscious of your emotions and what they're trying to accomplish. That's what Ralston talks about in his books. No need to remove excitement; just understand why you chase it. If it's for neurotic reasons, you'll know right away.

[Emerald]

12 minutes ago, jip said:

@Emerald Wilkins I would suggest to first become enlightened and then perhaps talk a bit about how amazing and great it is.

I have had two enlightenment experiences, and they were nothing shy of Heaven on Earth. They just weren't permanent and were catalyzed by an artificial means. But they closely match the descriptions given from others who have had an experience of ego-transcendence. So, I'm no expert, but I do have experience to back up my assertions. But don't believe me... seek it for yourself if it's important to you. Or "stay in the park", if that is what you want. Either way, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Do what is right for you. 

[jip]

47 minutes ago, jjer94 said:

@jip

Yes, it's a bit of a stretch, but let's flip it around: Why not? I mean, sure, you see through your ego. But you're at a costume party where everyone else is dressed up. You've gotta dress up as something. Why not have a little fun with it?

Why do you ride a carnival ride? For the ride, not for the teddy bear you get at the end. Why buy a ferrari? So you can ride around in it. The enlightened don't have any particular agenda with it besides having fun with it. They don't need it to be happy. Maybe it just intuitively felt right to buy one. 

Okay, so even though they see that there is no self doesn't make them less selfish per se? Leo makes it seem a bit in his videos as though enlightenment and truth are the highest values, but i guess thats just arbitrary. And isn't it uncomfortable for enlightened to constantly see that your costume is fake while others don't? Just knowing about it makes me already feel a bit unconfortable at times.

47 minutes ago, jjer94 said:

This is a trap you may want to watch out for. There's no need to remove any emotion. To try to remove an emotion would be to resist your present situation. The only thing you can do is become conscious of your emotions and what they're trying to accomplish. That's what Ralston talks about in his books. No need to remove excitement; just understand why you chase it. If it's for neurotic reasons, you'll know right away.

I don't remember perfectly but i thought he said something like, you can get rid of excitement. Should probably read them again soon

53 minutes ago, Emerald Wilkins said:

Either way, it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things

i dont know if there even is such a thing

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, Pinocchio said:

 

"Unity consciousness is great," I say, and she looks relieved. "Mystical union, being at one with the universe, the direct experience of the infinite. Bliss, ecstasy -- a taste of heaven. Beyond time, beyond space, beyond the ability of any words to describe. The peace that surpasseth all understanding."

"Wow," she says, aptly. Her name is Sarah. She's young, early twenties, and I've just pushed all of her spirituality buttons. If I were a guru, that would be my full time job. I shudder at the thought.

"Yeah," she rides on it, "that's exactly..."

"But that's not enlightenment."

"Oh."

"Enlightenment isn't when you go there, it's when there comes here. It's not a place you visit and then remember wistfully and try to return to. It's not a visit to the truth, it's the awakening of truth within you. It's not a fleeting state of consciousness, it's permanent truth-realization -- abiding non-dual awareness. It's not a place you visit from here, this is a place you visit from there. For instance, I myself am enlightened, right here, right now. I am free of delusion and unbound by ego, and although I have had the great fortune of experiencing mystical union on several occasions, I am not presently in that state and I have no plans to return to it. Nobody resides in a state of permanent bliss, Sarah, that's just something out of a sales pitch."

"Whoah..." she manages.

"What I'm trying to do here, Sarah, is get you back to square one. You've started off -- just like everyone does -- in one direction, but enlightenment is in another. What you have to do now is figure out what you really want. Do you want to dedicate your life to the pursuit of the experience of mystical consciousness? Or do you want to wake up to the truth of your being?"

-- Jed McKenna, Spiritual Enlightenment: The Damnedest Thing

This is good. My experiences have definitely prejudiced me in many ways and speaking to people on the forum has really started me thinking in that direction. In those moments, I "BELIEVE" I was experiencing truth. It was certainly a novel, spiritual experience, but more than that was an extreme degree of clarity and ability to see what had always been there. I had no fear and no self to be threatened, so I was able to be aware of a lot more because no truth could harm me. But now there is only a memory.. which only exists in the realm of belief and imagination. So, there is suffering, struggling, and grasping to get back to a remembered feeling. Trying to escape from fear and a rejection of the present moment for want of an enlightened future moment. Thank you.  

[Emerald]

1 hour ago, jip said:

i dont know if there even is such a thing

As in, there is only now? I guess we'll never know. 

[jjer94]

@jip

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Leo makes it seem a bit in his videos as though enlightenment and truth are the highest values, but i guess thats just arbitrary. 

He sure as heck makes it seem like it. But in truth, there is no such thing as value. In my opinion, I agree with Leo that enlightenment is the one thing most worth pursuing in this life. "But that's just, like, your opinion, man."

You want an example of someone that will give you a different perspective on values and enlightenment? This guy.

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And isn't it uncomfortable for enlightened to constantly see that your costume is fake while others don't? Just knowing about it makes me already feel a bit unconfortable at times.

Not as much uncomfortable as it is eerie. Imagine going to a Halloween costume party where everyone believes they are their costume.  But just like anything else, you get used to it. It probably even becomes fun after a while.

[jip]

41 minutes ago, jjer94 said:

@jip

He sure as heck makes it seem like it. But in truth, there is no such thing as value. In my opinion, I agree with Leo that enlightenment is the one thing most worth pursuing in this life. "But that's just, like, your opinion, man."

yeah he goes a bit overboard imo, it almost seems like he gives meaning to the meaninglessness

26 minutes ago, jjer94 said:

Not as much uncomfortable as it is eerie. Imagine going to a Halloween costume party where everyone believes they are their costume.  But just like anything else, you get used to it. It probably even becomes fun after a while.

it's quite absurd if you think about it, lol. do you think most people cover this simple fact (unconsiously) out of fear or is it just ignorance?

but i also feel the 3rd quote from my first post has a nice point, ego alows us to play. without it you're free, but then what?

[Sen]

"The park" as seen from the ego is just a belief. It is a story that the ego tells you. If you want to dream your life away stay in "the park". Also the enlightenment books are just stories to make you curious and not what will happen with you. Enlightenment is a personal experience.

[step1]

10 hours ago, jjer94 said:

@jip

 

You want an example of someone that will give you a different perspective on values and enlightenment? This guy.

 

Hey jjer94,

 

I just read about Osho on Wikipedia.  He made attempted a bioterror attack and was addicted to valium (60mg a day which is a heavy dose, most survive on 10mg a day tops) and nitrous oxide....  Valium is an anti anxiety drug..  Perhaps he wasn't really enlightened.. ?

[Sen]

@step1 Enlightenment doesn't make you holly. What you do after you attain it, it is of your own choosing. There is a book called Autobiography of a Yogi with lots of examples of enlightened people and how they lived their lives.

[Neo]

2 hours ago, Sen said:

"The park" as seen from the ego is just a belief. It is a story that the ego tells you. If you want to dream your life away stay in "the park". Also the enlightenment books are just stories to make you curious and not what will happen with you. Enlightenment is a personal experience.

Is this why Leo talks about the cake with the file in it? What is it exactly that can't be said? Ar, you can't tell me right?

[Sen]

29 minutes ago, Neo said:

Is this why Leo talks about the cake with the file in it? What is it exactly that can't be said? Ar, you can't tell me right?

First tell me who in you is the one who wants to know?