Two metaphysical worldviews about what is "real "

[Someone here]

Most people believe in one of the two following metaphysical worldviews:

1-is an idea of a real reality out there beyond percepion that we shall never fully know.

2-The Second is the actual reality we are witness to. That our sense perceptions are an accurate representation of what is in fact real. Of course we can extend this perception with Micrscopes..telescope.. scanners,l.. X-rays etc.. but that we are living in and a witness to what is real. 

I lean more towards the second.  There is in fact no evidence whatsoever that there is a deeper layer to reality behind the veil of perception. 

Unfortunately..most scientists and intellectuals nowadays believe in the first worldview. That's why Leo says we still live in the dark ages .

 

[Inliytened1]

34 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Most people believe in one of the two following metaphysical worldviews:

1-is an idea of a real reality out there beyond percepion that we shall never fully know.

2-The Second is the actual reality we are witness to. That our sense perceptions are an accurate representation of what is in fact real. Of course we can extend this perception with Micrscopes..telescope.. scanners,l.. X-rays etc.. but that we are living in and a witness to what is real. 

I lean more towards the second.  There is in fact no evidence whatsoever that there is a deeper layer to reality behind the veil of perception. 

Unfortunately..most scientists and intellectuals nowadays believe in the first worldview. That's why Leo says we still live in the dark ages .

 

Quantum mechanics debunked materialism decades ago.   But no one wants to acknowledge the ramifications of what was uncovered by guys like Neils Bohr, Einstein, and others.   Simply because its so outlandish.  It's like something out of a science fiction movie.    But the kicker is that science fiction movies themselves had to come from somewhere.  The mystical nature of reality is laid bare - its just that our logical minds turn the other cheek.  It's simpler for us to imagine there is an external reality -because whether there is or not has no bearing on the fact that we live a world that says there is 

[Someone here]

10 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Quantum mechanics debunked materialism decades ago.   But no one wants to acknowledge the ramifications of what was uncovered by guys like Neils Bohr, Einstein, and others.   Simply because its so outlandish.  It's like something out of a science fiction movie.    But the kicker is that science fiction movies themselves had to come from somewhere.  The mystical nature of reality is laid bare - its just that our logical minds turn the other cheek.  It's simpler for us to imagine there is an external reality -because whether there is or not has no bearing on the fact that we live a world that says there is 

Yes in fact even though I said I'm logically convinced of idealism but in my everyday life I act as a materialist. 

I assume that my car keys are always where I left them. 

The mind is afraid of idealism because it makes the world like a ghosty world. Malleable and not fixed .

[Vibroverse]

I think there is some sort of an external reality, but it is mental, or energetic, in nature. Reality being mental in nature does not necessarily mean that we as limited minds are the entire reality. There, for instance, is a magnificent order and intelligence that is underlying reality from which my conscious mind is not responsible, in a sense, if you know what i mean. There is a greater consciousness of which i'm only a part, a wave of the ocean. 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by Vibroverse

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Vibroverse said:

I think there is some sort of an external reality, but it is mental, or energetic, in nature. Reality being mental in nature does not necessarily mean that we as limited minds are the entire reality. There, for instance, is a magnificent order and intelligence that is underlying reality from which my conscious mind is not responsible, in a sense, if you know what i mean. There is a greater consciousness of which i'm only a part, a wave of the ocean. 

 

Actually no . There is no external reality as in objective reality . I know I'm contradicting myself a lot when I talk about this point..but recently I've realised reality is an appearance in my mind .it's a dream. Just like a dream at night. I've broken through the illusion of The waking state and realized that it's also a dream in consciousness. Ta-daaaa!

[Vibroverse]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Actually no . There is no external reality as in objective reality . I know I'm contradicting myself a lot when I talk about this point..but recently I've realised reality is an appearance in my mind .it's a dream. Just like a dream at night. I've broken through the illusion of The waking state and realized that it's also a dream in consciousness. Ta-daaaa!

Let's see how long will it take for you to start doubting it again. 

 

[Yimpa]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

Unfortunately..most scientists and intellectuals nowadays believe in the first worldview.

I actually actually thinking the opposite.

[Inliytened1]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

Yes in fact even though I said I'm logically convinced of idealism but in my everyday life I act as a materialist. 

I assume that my car keys are always where I left them. 

The mind is afraid of idealism because it makes the world like a ghosty world. Malleable and not fixed .

Yes, the mind wants a ground 

Of course you assume your keys are "there"...you are acting out a role in a most elegant play. As long as you imagine they are there, that's all that is required.  The mind is the only fuel necessary. 

[Someone here]

14 hours ago, Vibroverse said:

Let's see how long will it take for you to start doubting it again. 

 

Only one week ..I change my worldview more than I change my clothes ?

[Someone here]

14 hours ago, Yimpa said:

I actually actually thinking the opposite.

Yeah ? So folks like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris believe that consciousness is fundamental to reality ?

[Someone here]

13 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Yes, the mind wants a ground 

Of course you assume your keys are "there"...you are acting out a role in a most elegant play. As long as you imagine they are there, that's all that is required.  The mind is the only fuel necessary. 

But it's not enough imaginary to make the night shifts into day or vice versa in a matter of seconds if you just wished it into existence...right ?

So how exactly does this mind that is imagining everything keep up the consistency and apparent solidity of existence? 

I know I can dream of organised dreams or wacky crazy ones ...but what makes life so different? Are you following what I'm saying?

[Carl-Richard]

If you grant the fact that your perception seems to be limited by your biology, then will it not be reasonable to assume that there exists things that you're not currently able to perceive? You can't see the entire electromagnetic spectrum, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right? You can't see what is behind the wall, but that doesn't mean there is nothing behind the wall, right?

Edited July 31, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

If you grant time, space, causality and the fact that your perception seems to be limited by your biology, then will it not be reasonable to assume that there exists things that you're not currently able to perceive? You can't see the entire electromagnetic spectrum, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist, right? You can't see what is behind the wall, but that doesn't mean there is nothing behind the wall, right?

Well ..based on direct experience one can only ever be certain of the content of his own experience. And cannot validate or invalidate the existence of a third person objective world behind the surface of appearance. 

Point one thing.. Just one freaking thing that exists outside of your direct experience right now.. ..You might say "well the pyramids in Egypt they exist there but they are not in my direct experience now".. No!  There is no pyramids and no Egypt and no "there".. All that exists in actuality right this moment is whatever you are experiencing right now + the belief or ideas that there is something existing outside of that which is actually occurring (the belief) inside of that. 

The idea that there is something existing outside of direct experience is just an Idea that is occurring inside direct experience!!!!!

  One can't get around this. 

If you close your eyes ..how exactly are you supposed to know with 100% certainty that the world didn't disappear?

[Carl-Richard]

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Well ..based on direct experience one can only ever be certain of the content of his own experience. And cannot validate or invalidate the existence of a third person objective world behind the surface of appearance. 

Point one thing.. Just one freaking thing that exists outside of your direct experience right now.. ..You might say "well the pyramids in Egypt they exist there but they are not in my direct experience now".. No!  There is no pyramids and no Egypt and no "there".. All that exists in actuality right this moment is whatever you are experiencing right now + the belief or ideas that there is something existing outside of that which is actually occurring (the belief) inside of that. 

The idea that there is something existing outside of direct experience is just an Idea that is occurring inside direct experience!!!!!

  One can't get around this. 

If you close your eyes ..how exactly are you supposed to know with 100% certainty that the world didn't disappear?

So you're not granting time, space and causality then. These things are intrinsically tied to what most scientists and philosophers call perception. If you want to talk about "direct experience", you can do that, but it's not what they are talking about.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Someone here]

6 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

So you're not granting time, space and causality then. These things are intrinsically tied to what most scientists and philosophers call perception. If you want to talk about "direct experience" devoid of these things, you can do that, but it's not what they are talking about.

Time ..space..causality are concepts that are occurring in  direct experience. 

My point is there is nothing to "anything " more than it's appearance. 

Look at this..All you have of reality   is basically the five senses. A visual field of colors and objects. And audio emerging out of these different objects. And physical signals in the body. Different sensations. And thoughts. Which are nothing but sensations as well. And that's basically all there is. This might seem like a naive reductionist philosophy Where I'm denying everything that is not contacted with directly. But it is what it is. I'm stripping away all that's not certain. All that's not present.

[ivankiss]

Veil of perception...

Real is consciousness, directly, right now. Anything other than that is still real, because its Source is real, but it's also a distortion. A delusion. An illusion. Or whatever else word you prefer.

[Carl-Richard]

22 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Time ..space..causality are concepts that are occurring in  direct experience. 

My point is there is nothing to "anything " more than it's appearance. 

Look at this..All you have of reality   is basically the five senses. A visual field of colors and objects. And audio emerging out of these different objects. And physical signals in the body. Different sensations. And thoughts. Which are nothing but sensations as well. And that's basically all there is. This might seem like a naive reductionist philosophy Where I'm denying everything that is not contacted with directly. But it is what it is. I'm stripping away all that's not certain. All that's not present.

How do you distinguish the five senses?

[josemar]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

Yeah ? So folks like Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris believe that consciousness is fundamental to reality ?

Sam Harris yes, Dawkins I don't think so

[Someone here]

5 hours ago, ivankiss said:

Veil of perception...

Real is consciousness, directly, right now. Anything other than that is still real, because its Source is real, but it's also a distortion. A delusion. An illusion. Or whatever else word you prefer.

We could use the terms first order truth and second order truth .

1st order truth is absolute and it simply means raw sensory experience. 

2nd order truth is concepts and stuff behind the scenes like atoms ..electrons..energy ..math equations etc that need to underpin truth. 

[Someone here]

5 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

How do you distinguish the five senses?

I don't understand your question.