What do you consider clean eating?

[Miguel1]

Hey guys,

I think I might be starting to build an unhealthy relationship with obsessively eating clean.

Is clean eating for you absolutely 100% clean eating? As in, never ever having any junk food, any cakes, any chocolate and ice cream?

Or is it more like an 80/20 rule for you?

90/10?

95/5?

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What about bad additives? What about heavy metals? How badly do you avoid these?

I am not perfectly knowledgeable about additives, and it seems like the understanding of some additives being unhealthy may change to neutral as science develops. It would be awesome if you can list additives that are absolute no.

I live in Finland (Europe), so I believe the regulations here are much better and tighter than in the USA (in case this info is any useful).

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Are you vegetarian? Vegan? Do you do Keto? Do you follow a plan of x amount of carbs, proteins, and fats? How much saturated fat do you allow yourself to eat?

How much greens, fruits, and salads do you consume?

Any rules on eggs?

What do you think of nuts?

What do you think of rice, pasta, potatoes? - I'm not sure how is it there in the USA, but in Europe, we have rice and pasta that are wholegrain.

Finally, processed food doesn't necessarily mean unhealthy, but let's talk about unhealthy processed food. How much do you allow yourself?

Hopefully, I'm not missing anything.

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I am reflecting on whether I am becoming way too perfectionist about all this.

Would love to hear ya'll thoughts and @Michael569 , would love to have you chip in as well, since you are the professional here

Much love.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Migue Lonas

[Jannes]

Have a base of clean (unprocessed) food and allow yourself some junk to make is sustainable.

I think there are two sides to unclean food. 1) It can hurt your health and 2) it can be an opportunity cost for healthy food because when you fill your calories with junk, you can't fill your calories with health food anymore. 

This becomes problematic when you dont get enough micronutrients in. So when you eat like 80% chips and skittles, it's not only that the saturated fats and the chemicals hurt you, the fact that you dont get enough vitamins is the way bigger problem. 

So I would focus on junk only causing you 1). 

For how much 1) hurts you I can't really say. Maybe a little. But dont you want to enjoy life as well? Well maybe the biggest joys come from actualizing and not junk food. Becoming obsessive about clean eating is a sickness though, you dont want that. 

[Michael569]

@Migue Lonas hey , thanks for the tag. 

1 hour ago, Migue Lonas said:

Is clean eating for you absolutely 100% clean eating?

"clean eating" is a pretty barbed wire term. What does it even mean. Ella Woodrow in UK got a pretty big backlash for advertising this couple years ago. I'm sure if you asked 10 folks on this forum what the term means you'd get 10 different diets. 

So let's start there - what does "clean" mean to you? And what do you consider junk food?

Edited July 24, 2023 by Michael569

[Miguel1]

4 hours ago, Michael569 said:

I'm sure if you asked 10 folks on this forum what the term means you'd get 10 different diets. 

So let's start there - what does "clean" mean to you? And what do you consider junk food?

Exactly! Hence the idea here is that I get people's opinions and thoughts so I can make my own judgment for myself.

So I will actually throw the question back at you. What do you consider clean eating to you?

My aim is to have the healthiest possible food for my own body. I understand that different people can't handle different food.

So far, I haven't had any problems with any food diet. I can go vegan too, if that is the healthiest to me.

But I can also eat meat, if that is the healthiest for me.

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I would consider junk food anything that is not very nutritious food. Basically any food that has low nutritional value.

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Ella Woodrow case is interesting. I will look into it.

Appreciate you taking time to answer.

[Michael569]

13 hours ago, Migue Lonas said:

So I will actually throw the question back at you. What do you consider clean eating to you?

 nice one 

Ok, couple questions then 

1. Do you consider ethics and sustainability in your approach, or are you solely looking to maximise health potential? 
2. What are your goals? - Are they more short-term? (muscle hypertrophy, strength) or more long-term (longevity, chronic disease avoidance)
3. Any eliminations? 
4. Any existing health comorbidities? 
5. Do you have a food budget? 

13 hours ago, Migue Lonas said:

would consider junk food anything that is not very nutritious food. Basically any food that has low nutritional value.

A lot of what would commonly be considered "junk food" actually has an exceptional nutritional value which is why they would sometimes be used alongside chemotherapy, for example, because they delay chemo-induced cachexia. And considering a lot of it is getting enriched with vitamins through fortification, by that definition some of these products would match the definition of a superfood  

You could say that leafy greens given the price per calorie are (by your definition) junk food. Rice probably too. Maybe even lean meats like chicken or turkey  which besides protein have a poor nutritional content and exceptionally high ethical tax. 

My definition of junk food would probably be something along the lines of: "a food or a food component that  has been linked to unfavourable outcomes in human health independent of energy excess and independent of existing health comorbidities if consumed on a regular basis ("regular basis" is a poor definition of duration, I know).  And I would also add - or where a minimal harmful dose has already been established with relatively strong accuracy and where zero consumption would offer the highest risk mitigation

- by that definition, I would go with processed meat, butter and probably even red meat because those harmful doses have clearly been established with relatively decent accuracy and the less of those you consume, the better - all things being equal. 

Everything else is dose dependant or context dependant 

So here is a complicated answer to a simple question  

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Btw I'm just teasing ya  because I don't love to answer these sorts of questions without having a rigorous assessment of someone's diet and understanding their goals which is why I usually spend up to 4 hrs talking to folks before giving any advice.

 Sounds to me like you're on the right track and the closer you can get to a somewhat personalised variation of a Mediterranean diet the better. You are likely going to benefit from addition of healthy processed food like tofu, dark chocolate, cocoa -  you know the good stuff. While limiting the above. 

Everything else comes down to personal ethics and ecological preferences as well as budget and local grocery availability 

Hope that helps! 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Michael569

[undeather]

Quote

My aim is to have the healthiest possible food for my own body. I understand that different people can't handle different food.

You have to understand that there are layers to this approach.

"Healthiest possible" implies a diet which is perfectly matched to your individual metabaolome. This means that in theory, there is an essential combination of macro and micronutrients that correlate 1:1  with our specific metabolic capacities and energy utilization phenotypes. I don't have to tell you that this approach is not only completely orwellian, but also practically impossible from our current scientfic standpoint. 

So let's move away from this insular notion towards the following question: What are healthy eating patterns? 
If you could break down all nutrition science into a few simple rules, then this is what that would look like:
1) Eat real foods (as minimally processed as possible)
2) Mostly plants (plant based > animal based)
3) Variety (greater > lower)
4) Not too much (energy balance)

Focus on: Beans, fruits, berries, legumes, vegetables, greens, nuts & seeds, whole grains, herbs/spices

If everyone on this planet would mostly adhere to those 4 simple rules, we would wipe out 1/3 of all chronic diseases in 1 year. Notice that we do not exclude any big food groups. If you want to eat some meat, go eat some meat, If you want to go vegan, go vegan. If you want to eat to that Snickers, you can occasionally do that as well.

Now, you might say: Well, this is nice - but I want to go further! I am a health nut! I want specific advice and max out on my health.
Alright, we can go further down:

1) For makros, aim for at least 1g-1,5g/kg protein-intake a day, primarily from plant sources. 
2) Lower salt intake to ~2g a day (Go for salt replacements like potassium-chloride-salts)
3) Lower saturated fat intake, especially from animal sources, to as low as possible
4) Prefer high quality, organic, locally grown products - aim for in season products in particular. 
5) Only use highest quality vegetable/see oils - especially extra virgin olive oil - generally avoid butter/ghee
6) Limit egg intake to ~1egg a day or below
7) Largely exchange meat for fatty fish or vegan options
8) Exchange simple carbs with complex carbs 
9) Obtain a major part of your fat-intake from fatty plant sources like avocado, nuts, seeds..
10) Fermented animal products like natural yoghurt or even cheese (in moderation) are okay

Again- I am not telling which food you should eat or strictly avoid. I am showing you what a pattern of healthy eating looks like. Let's say you follow those suggestions for 80% of the time, then you will already be in the 95th percentile of healthy eaters. You will be fine! It's your decision if you want to go all the way or if you give yourself a treat occassionally. Personally, I really enjoy social-eating. My simple rule is to cook really healthy at home and when out with friends, I tend to feast with them. As Michael already said, your values decide what approach is the right or you. Nobody here can take that process away from you.

However, if you want to take it to the absolute maximum - I can respect that. 
Bryan Johnson gives a pretty decent example of a "perfect diet" could look like:

Cheers
 

[Michael569]

@undeather fabulous response ↑ - few probing questions for you 

9 minutes ago, undeather said:

Lower salt intake to ~2g a day (Go for salt replacements like potassium-chloride-salts)

are you talking about salt (NaCl) or Sodium? Would the above be realistic for salt only? What's the gold standard for CVD risk mitigation at the moment in terms of optimal sodium intake per day - this is one I'm still not clear on. Also, when assessing the evidence, do you solely look for lab studies with 24-hour urine collection? 

9 minutes ago, undeather said:

Only use highest quality vegetable/see oils - especially extra virgin olive oil - generally avoid butter/ghee

What do you think about some of the evidence pointing to safflower and rapeseed potentially scoring even better than olive oil where LDL reduction is concerned? I am less and less convinced that veg & seed oils (with the exception of coconut & palm) are that different from each other when it comes to human outcome data. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by Michael569

[Michal__]

- meet all your nutritional needs (both micro and macro nutrients, enough calories obviously)

- digest easily (experiment - this is an area where anecdote > studies) 

Being in a food coma is a sure way to cripple your productivity...

- look out for things like cholesterol, diabetes etc 

- minimize processed foods

Edited July 25, 2023 by Michal__

[undeather]

Quote

are you talking about salt (NaCl) or Sodium? Would the above be realistic for salt only? What's the gold standard for CVD risk mitigation at the moment in terms of optimal sodium intake per day - this is one I'm still not clear on. Also, when assessing the evidence, do you solely look for lab studies with 24-hour urine collection? 

The sodium component of NaCl is the one influencing the fluid regulatory system and negatively impacts blood pressure & kidney function. What makes salt so potent is that a large quantity of  elemental sodium is freed up anionically once soluted in a liquid (Na+ & Cl-). Most whole foods usually contain a diverse elemental-matrix with a strong potassium component, which acts as an antagaonist for sodium. Therefore, salt is by far the most potent sodium contributor. The pathophysiology of Na+ & K+ in hypertension is interesting but very complex. I dont have time to go deeper at the moment, but let me know if you are intersted.

What exactly is not clear when it comes to the CVD risk mitigation? 
There are dozens of studies which looked at salt intake & CVD mortality. It's built on an extremely solid mechanistical understanding and the evidence is pretty uniform. There has been a discussion about U- or J-shaped relations between low salt intake and ASCVD. However, in my opinion, if you control for underlying illness and malnutrition, this relation pretty much diasppear.

Yes, there are strong deviations if you don't use gold standard measurements with 24h urine collection. However, you just gotta weigh their epistemic impact accordingly, if you know what I mean.

 

Quote

What do you think about some of the evidence pointing to safflower and rapeseed potentially scoring even better than olive oil where LDL reduction is concerned? I am less and less convinced that veg & seed oils (with the exception of coconut & palm) are that different from each other when it comes to human outcome data. 

Yep, that's true. Seed/vegetable oils are in generally pretty amazing if you use them as a substitute for more high sat.fat-sources. Yes, some LDL-outcomes surpass olive oil. However, we have so much data surrounding the health benefits of high quality olive oil which go beyond LDL. We have so much more hard endpoints to work with -  like CVD-mortality, which is what actually counts if you think about. I am just a huge simp for so many reasons but I gotta go now - maybe we can discuss this deeper another time 

 

[LSD-Rumi]

Don't be obsessed about healthy nutrition. Just avoid simple carbs, reduce you consumption of meat and eat legumes, vegetables and fruit.

[Miguel1]

@Michael569

1. Do you consider ethics and sustainability in your approach, or are you solely looking to maximise health potential? 

Yes, I would prefer the most ethical and sustainable approach, but it also depends on how much I lose on the health side.

2. What are your goals? - Are they more short-term? (muscle hypertrophy, strength) or more long-term (longevity, chronic disease avoidance)

All long-term goals.

3. Any eliminations?

No.

4. Any existing health comorbidities?

No.

5. Do you have a food budget?

No.

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On 7/25/2023 at 2:41 PM, Michael569 said:

Btw I'm just teasing ya

Haha lol !
 

On 7/25/2023 at 2:41 PM, Michael569 said:

Sounds to me like you're on the right track and the closer you can get to a somewhat personalised variation of a Mediterranean diet the better. You are likely going to benefit from addition of healthy processed food like tofu, dark chocolate, cocoa -  you know the good stuff. While limiting the above. 

Everything else comes down to personal ethics and ecological preferences as well as budget and local grocery availability 

Hope that helps! 

Yeah, thanks for the advice. I will take it

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Also, thanks @undeather and everyone else for your advice!

Edited July 30, 2023 by Migue Lonas

[sholomar]

For me clean eating is simply avoiding excessive refined carbohydrates and seed oils... basically no cake, donuts, pop tarts, chips, crackers, hot pockets, pizza, etc...

I eat lots of beans. Steaks. Eggs. Greek Yogurt. Salads. I do eat processed "healthy" foods such as Nick's Ice Cream, along with those inexpensive costco protein bars that have chicory root extract in them. One positive to come out of processing is being able to add prebiotics, fibers, and sugar alcohols into food to mitigate the blood sugar rise and excessive calorie/carb consumption. 

[Carl-Richard]

You could call my eating 100% clean in the sense that I only eat proper meals and only drink water.

A proper meal is a really wide category, but for me, it needs to have a proper ratio of proteins/fat/carbs, the right amount of fibre, and some micronutrient awareness (and you start eating when you're truly hungry and stop eating when you're truly full). 

What that usually looks like is some meat, some starchy food (rice, potato, pasta) and some vegetables, leafy greens or other plant-based foods (and some sauce or other things for taste, preferably not too fatty), i.e. very standard stuff. Naturally, there will be some oils, diary, salt, pepper and other spices in there too. I checked my average diet in Cronometer, and the only thing I need to supplement with is vitamin D (which I already am) and maybe some calcium.

The only exception to the proper meal routine is I'll have one sweet fruit (most often an orange) at the tail-end of my workouts. While I don't want to eat too little fibre, I also don't want too much fibre, or too much of certain plant-based foods like nuts, seeds or legumes, for the sake of my stomach. As for avoiding certain foods: foods with too much flour in it and processed meats (if what you're buying is 100% raw, it's generally ok).

Edited August 1, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Buck Edwards]

8 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

You could call my eating 100% clean in the sense that I only eat proper meals and only drink water.

A proper meal is a really wide category, but for me, it needs to have a proper ratio of proteins/fat/carbs, the right amount of fibre, and some micronutrient awareness (and you start eating when you're truly hungry and stop eating when you're truly full). 

What that usually looks like is some meat, some starchy food (rice, potato, pasta) and some vegetables, leafy greens or other plant-based foods (and some sauce or other things for taste, preferably not too fatty), i.e. very standard stuff. Naturally, there will be some oils, diary, salt, pepper and other spices in there too. I checked my average diet in Cronometer, and the only thing I need to supplement with is vitamin D (which I already am) and maybe some calcium.

The only exception to the proper meal routine is that I'll have one sweet fruit (most often an orange) at the tail-end of my workouts. While I don't want to eat too little fibre, I also don't want too much fibre or too much of certain plant-based foods, like nuts, seeds or legumes, for the sake of my stomach. As for avoiding certain foods: foods with too much flour in it and processed meats (if it's 100% raw, it's generally ok).

You never ate a pizza? 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Enlightement said:

You never ate a pizza? 

If the pizza has a lot of dough in it, it makes me feel weird. It also generally doesn't hit my criteria of a proper meal. I'll really only have a pizza if I'm at a proper italian restaurant, which is maybe twice a year.

Edited August 1, 2023 by Carl-Richard