Women Are Perpetuating Traditional Morality In "Male-Dominant" Societies

[Mesopotamian]

12 minutes ago, Understander said:

Does disrespect have a huge effect on your survival?

 

I guess reputation is key in life too right?

12 minutes ago, Understander said:

Is it possible to survive alone?

 

Basically you need to act "normal" according to society, hide your convictions and beliefs

13 minutes ago, Understander said:

Do you have a job? Do they pay well?

 

I was able to learn how to design websites back in the days, and I am surviving through that up until now..

14 minutes ago, Understander said:

Have you found a way to to get out of your country? If yes, why are you waiting for?

Passport is limited, and of course it's something on my mind to get out of the country. The country goes into war and chaos at a rate of every 10-15 years for the past century at least, therefore it's about time that Iraq gets into a new wave of chaos and instability.. when and if that happens, I'll be on the first flight out ..

[Mesopotamian]

4 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

Especially if you push a woman into the mother role, and she doesn't truly want to (even though she "should" or is "supposed to", because it makes you a good or at minimally acceptable person)? You are absolutely asking for emotional issues that will then get passed on to her children. Full stop.

I want to argue that it's all originate from woman's fears that other women even are pushed into the mother role. Men would want to slack, have bears, play like apes and call it a day. who's driving daughters into growing up, getting married, and start having kids again? who's prepetuationg this cycle endlessly?

[Nemra]

 

42 minutes ago, Mesopotamian said:

I guess reputation is key in life too right?

Of course, but it's different in different countries. You can care about reputation, but it has a price. You can brainwash yourself with bullshit ideas about anything.

Think of this way, what if you get out of your country and meet a girl, you won't be able to communicate with her if you think women are the problem or smth like that. Because it is different in developed countries.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Understander

[eos_nyxia]

38 minutes ago, Mesopotamian said:

I guess under Iraqi laws it's a crime to have a sexual encounter without marriage. And now Iraqi police and army are turning into morality police, even in the most liberal parts of Iraq, they will go after you if they knew that you and your girl living unmarried under the same roof. They will put you in jail for that matter. 

The society is structured in a way that you practically can't get married if without the support of people. for example, no sex before marriage. Nobody rents you a place to live if you're a single, unless it's a hotel room, but then you can't have your girl there, because people at the hotel are required to see proof of marriage, or else you're not allowed to stay at the same room with your girl.

I'm guessing your country is under Sharia law, but less severe form?

The more extreme examples that I can think of would be: 1) Saudi Arabia, where you can still get YOUR HANDS CHOPPED OFF if you steal. Even if they don't actually implement this aggressively, the fear is put into people. 2) Iran within the first 10ish years of the Iranian revolution in the 90s. What you mentioned about the "morality police" immediately made me think of Iran.

A few more examples that I can think of for religious/ cultural fundamentalism off the top of my head:

• 1) Christian Fundamentalism in the US, specifically all-Christian communities and cities. I've heard some horror stories from agnostics and atheists who did not want to hide their lack of belief, or god forbid, self-identifying, semi-open occultists.
• 2)  Here in Canada, we've had a regular handful of cases where honor killings happen amongst religious Indians or Middle Eastern people, which occasionally sparks conversations about the nature of "religious tolerance" here. To my knowledge, often it is male members (like fathers and brothers) killing women or teenage girls who dare have boyfriends or sexual relationships outside of pre-approved relationships (essentially marriage).

Less severe is... I'm not sure. I don't know as much about this.
 

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You think you can outsmart the morality system? but no.. If you're single man or woman, nobody rents you an apartment or a house to live at. You need to always be a part of a family, whether your own family, or you and your wife, the new family. 

 

I've heard about cases like that here in the States and Canada, even though it's against our laws. Really persistent parents and relatives basically brainwash their kids, live in very tightknit communities, and make it very hard to leave or basically do anything on their own.

TBH when your whole society is like that, like a consensus society where people are heavily punished for stepping out of line, it's like an extended cult, lol. The government just happens to be in on it too. I think over here, many people have a decent idea of how hard it can be to leave a cult, especially if you grew up in one. And that's without the government making it real hard for you to leave.

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So basically relationship without marriage are done in secret, and you can only have the freedom to talk to your lover on phone, meet in public places, and that's all. And few can still find places to mate, but if pregnancy happened by accident, then it's a huge problem. Basically people need to get married, or sometimes throwing the newel born baby in the trash!

So many places in the world like this still.

Edited July 14, 2023 by eos_nyxia

[eos_nyxia]

35 minutes ago, Mesopotamian said:

I want to argue that it's all originate from woman's fears that other women even are pushed into the mother role. Men would want to slack, have bears, play like apes and call it a day. who's driving daughters into growing up, getting married, and start having kids again? who's prepetuationg this cycle endlessly?

This is going to sound terrible, but often people (both men and women) feel like if they had to go through something, then their kids and younger people should have to too because it's just "something that's done". In a way, this is the essence of conservatism of the mindless variety; it demands obedience and not understanding or questions. This includes what women do to their daughters. And then it just becomes this neverending cycle.

It's like they completely forget what it was like to be subjugated once they get to a certain age, though it is possible that they were one of the ones who actually fit the mold of expected identity and behaviour better from the start. If they like this, often they just don't get it, and have no reason to care because they are not forced to: they are comfortable enough as it is. But most likely, no. It's suppressed and it comes out in very ugly ways.

People can be like that here too about coercing women (but also men) into have children, getting married, etc. Except here, the law is not on their side.

Edited July 14, 2023 by eos_nyxia

[eos_nyxia]

44 minutes ago, Mesopotamian said:

Passport is limited, and of course it's something on my mind to get out of the country. The country goes into war and chaos at a rate of every 10-15 years for the past century at least, therefore it's about time that Iraq gets into a new wave of chaos and instability.. when and if that happens, I'll be on the first flight out ..

I know I tend to write a lot, don't feel pressured to respond to it all, lol.

But just curious, do you have any idea why this is? It seems like some countries in the Middle East are more stable, and some far less so.

[Mesopotamian]

20 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

TBH when your whole society is like that, like a consensus society where people are heavily punished for stepping out of line, it's like an extended cult, lol. The government just happens to be in on it too. I think over here, many people have a decent idea of how hard it can be to leave a cult, especially if you grew up in one. And that's without the government making it real hard for you to leave.

I feel this is a good description for the things that's going on here. That's why I always say in my previous writings that Iraq is a pseudo-country. We have a fake constitution which states that people are free to think and speak, but in the same constitution written that the Quran should be considered a fundamental source of laws and legislation. So naturally people are religious and they're going to want to adopt the latter view.. 

20 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

I'm guessing your country is under Sharia law, but less severe form?

 

It is but not totally and officially. The police is enforcing morality and anti-free speech sometimes without a warrant even. Then other times there are no trials, so you end up there in the dark for years, without a trial!

Probably at least in Saudi Arabia things are done during the daylight and there are proper institutions for defending morality, here it's left for the poilce.. 

20 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

2)  Here in Canada, we've had a regular handful of cases where honor killings happen amongst religious Indians or Middle Eastern people, which occasionally sparks conversations about the nature of "religious tolerance" here. To my knowledge, often it is male members (like fathers and brothers) killing women or teenage girls who dare have boyfriends or sexual relationships outside of pre-approved relationships (essentially marriage).

this is true here, but the way they didn't have to resort to this very often is by making sure there's no freedoms! You basically have no space to meet up with a boyfriend or GF. Everyone is in for this even government. 

20 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

This is going to sound terrible, but often people (both men and women) feel like if they had to go through something, then their kids and younger people should have to too because it's just "something that's done". In a way, this is the essence of conservatism of the mindless variety; it demands obedience and not understanding or questions. This includes what women do to their daughters. And then it just becomes this neverending cycle.

This is also another good way to view the matter in hand.. I haven't delved into understanding how they dynamics of conservative societies work, but it's something like you've mentioned, however also you mentioned earlier about your grandma, that had she been educated, and in my mind, it's like the only way this can work and people stop this cycle if the wife was educated, but not any education, there needs to be actual western-style education, and on top of that is in a western country, because most of universities at under-developed countries can actually filter the cultural aspect that only exist in developed countries. Example of that, one university last year in iraq decided to cut all the trees, so that a guy and a girl wouldn't stand and talk or God forbid kiss under a tree haha ?.. that's an extreme case but just an example.

20 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

I know I tend to write a lot, don't feel pressured to respond to it all, lol.

 

No it's alright, I'll be happy to reply whenever I have time

20 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

But just curious, do you have any idea why this is? It seems like some countries in the Middle East are more stable, and some far less so.

Iraq is a particular case. Also Syria as far as I understand, but iraq is a more special case because of the wealth of oil, but indeed it's the most fake country that I have ever been into. Like so fake, and by that I mean a house of card, example, we didn't struggle for independence of the country, it was just granted to us, and we went from first occupation (Ottmans) to second one (England) then the latter just granted the country independence, and brought a king from elsewhere. Unlike other surrounding countries, like Turkey, they had an empire for hundreds of years, therefore they could easily transition to a new and modern state system. 

On top of that, Iraq is a meeting point between Sunni and Shiite, largest Islam sects, and throw money and power in between, and you'll have a recepie for wars.. 

Also there are other minorities, Kurds have a presence here, and Christians, so it's easy to stir things up and spark a race for power and domination. 

Iraq is like a dying patient in an ICU, basically the modern Iraq was conquered in 2014 by ISIS, but the international community decided to resuscitate it once more. Now it's dying again, IMO there's going to be an economical collapse sometime in the near future, which then develops into a conflict. 

Maybe this read can introduce you to the topic if you're interested to learn more:
https://www.ft.com/content/e42fe1ff-80f3-4d5b-b182-7812761c87ad