But Leo... How is it possible that no other teachers are AWAKE?

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Girzo said:

This is bullshit, and both Rick Strassman and Andrew Gallimore which you quote in a next sentence would tell you that. You should go straight to OGs and read their works as not to get misguided by immature thinkers who are over-enthusiastic on some issue.

There’s no endohauasca. And if there is some natural high state it 1000% doesn’t involve DMT at all.

. No DMT in natural high states, hm?

So lets Strassman speak himself:

Strassman ,DMT and the Soul of Prophecy. A New Science of Spiritual Revelation in the Hebrew Bible. Chapter THE PINEAL GLAND AND CONSCIOUSNESS:

"My approach instead was to consider the possibility that the body synthesized a compound with psychedelic properties that produced highly prized spiritual experiences, rather than highly maladaptive psychotic experiences. And rather than proposing that meditation influenced brain waves or stress hormones that were relatively remote from the immediate subjective state, I wondered whether a hypothetical “spirit molecule” directly occasioned the meditational experiences themselves. In the same vein, it seemed possible that this compound mediated the subjective elements of other nonpsychotic, non-drug-induced altered states such as dream sleep and the effects of fasting and prayer.

Where in the body might this spirit molecule arise? In my search for its origin I was led to the pineal gland by another Stanford mentor, Jim Fadiman. The pineal gland, a tiny organ sitting deep within the recesses of the human brain, has been for millennia an object of great interest to several systems of “esoteric physiology,” including Hinduism and Judaism"

"More recently, we have learned how mammals synthesize endogenous DMT, and it appears that lung tissue is the major site for its production in rabbits12 and humans.13 Researchers have identified the gene responsible for the enzyme that finalizes DMT synthesis. After inserting the human gene into a virus and infecting mammalian cells with that virus, those cells begin producing DMT.14"

13. Thompson, Moon, Kim, et al., “Human Indolethylamine NMethyltransferase.”

"Human research with DMT, and with all other psychedelic drugs, ceased with the enactment of the Controlled Substances Act of 1970 in the United States and comparable laws elsewhere.*25 While scientists had discovered a highly promising avenue of inquiry, it had yet to attain the level of maturity that comes from unrestricted study of the relevant phenomena. For example, scientists had not yet developed sensitive enough technology to determine whether differences existed in DMT levels between normal and psychotic people. We knew nearly nothing about ayahuasca. And there was no consideration of the possible role of endogenous DMT in spiritual experience."

"As my study of the Hebrew Bible progressed, the nature of this future world increasingly drew my attention. This is because of how similar many of its properties appear to those of the DMT state. I began to consider how endogenous DMT may play a role in this phenomenon, and it is for that reason I describe the “future world” in as much detail as I do below."

"And while eschatological elements appear in both states, those of prophecy are much more highly articulated. However, it is of great interest that biblical descriptions of the world to come share phenomenological properties with the DMT state. These common characteristics have led me to consider the role of endogenous DMT in the “eschaton,” and I will discuss this issue in chapter 20, The Metaphysics of DMT."

"Our working hypothesis is that elevated endogenous DMT may mediate the features of the prophetic experience that it shares with the experimental DMT effect."

Then Strassman and Wojtowicz, Inner Paths to Outer Space

"Hypnosis, meditation, yoga; rebirthing and holotropic breathing (healing techniques utilizing accelerated breathing); and some other types of “spiritual technology tools” produce experiences almost identical in content and intensity to those induced by psychedelics."

 

DMT synthesized in the Pineal Gland and the lung. Tummo and Wim Hoefer... By the way, DMT production in the Pineal Gland has been proven in the meantime.

 

And for Gallimore: Gallimore, Building Alien Worlds - The Neuropsychological and Evolutionary Implications of the Astonishing Psychoactive Effects of N,N-Dimethyltryptamine (DMT)

https://philpapers.org/rec/GALBAW

"When serotonin is replaced by DMT, the thalamocortical system shifts into an equivalent state, but one in which an apparently alien world is built. This suggests that DMT may be an ancestral neuromodulator, at one time secreted endogenously in psychedelic concentrations-a function apparently now lost. However, DMT maintains a number of unique pharmacological characteristics and a peculiar affinity with the human brain that supports this model. Thus, the modern practice of ingesting exogenous DMT may be the reconstitution of an ancestral function."

And considering all the OBEs, mediums, and psychics, not lost at all members of the humand species.

If you want more material, also from different sources, just let me know.

Selling Water by the River

Edited July 14, 2023 by Water by the River

[Hojo]

We arent god ! Its not possible ! We are trapped until we figure out our puzzle

Edited July 14, 2023 by Hojo

[Yimpa]

2 minutes ago, Hojo said:

We arent god ! Its not possible ! We are trapped until we figure out our puzzle

 

 

[Hojo]

@Yimpa

 

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

NO! Nonduality is imaginary and no one here is conscious of that.

Sure. There are plenty of people having Nondual experiences (Nondual Unity-experienes for example), with the separate self still intact, dreaming a nondual dream. That is not Full Enlightenment, where anything separate fully drops (Impersonal). I have written extensively about that in many posts:

https://www.actualized.org/forum/search/?&q=Nonduality&page=2&author=Water by the River

Just one nice example from Jac O'Keffee elaborating on the topic of the Nondual Dream with a separate self still well & alive:

And by the way, that differentiation between Nonduality (happens first) and the later happening Great Awakening to the Impersonal Suchness of Infinite Reality/Consciousness  is in every spiritual tradition. More material on request.

And how Impersonal or how much the Deep Identity has shifted towards Pure Impersonal Consciousness/Awareness, Absolute Reality itself, one with every arising as itself, living itself as the Totality, perceiving itself in every wave on the ocean.... Well, every reader has a certain intuition of that for sure.

Bon voyage!

Selling Water by the River

Edited July 14, 2023 by Water by the River

[LfcCharlie4]

Depends what you're after. 

If you just want plain old awakening & happiness there's plenty of teachers on YouTube and likely several based near you you can work with 

In my experience, that is the best way, find one you resonate with and work with them 

Works much better than watching vague YT videos all day 

Kinda like if you wanna get good at a sport, having a 1-1 coach is far more effective than sitting listening to that coach lecture to 1000s of people. Although the latter can be useful in places, the former is what will get you further 

I haven't explored psyches like Leo & others here has, as never felt the urge, so can't comment beyond good old sober awakening 

[Girzo]

@Water by the River You don't understand what you quote. I have read both books by Strassman and know Gallimore from his talks (haven't read his book yet).

Strassman toyed with the idea (that's why he constantly uses "may", "may", because he didn't know, it was just a cool idea for him, not a finding) but discarded it both based on his own jewish scripture research and findings by other researchers who were researching biological aspects of it.

You know that production of DMT confirmed = micrograms of it? Or smaller trace amounts. It's created in trace amounts! Nothing to produce an experience and Gallimore would tell you that if you dared to listen carefully. That's why he says it might have been an ANCESTRAL neuromodulator, that means first it's just a big speculation, second it doesn't have any role NOWADAYS.

You are a few years backwards, if not decades, on psychedelic science.

[ivankiss]

We've all been blinded
Subjects to visual misinformation
A systematic denial of the crystalline

[Water by the River]

47 minutes ago, Girzo said:

@Water by the River You don't understand what you quote. I have read both books by Strassman and know Gallimore from his talks (haven't read his book yet).

Strassman toyed with the idea (that's why he constantly uses "may", "may", because he didn't know, it was just a cool idea for him, not a finding) but discarded it both based on his own jewish scripture research and findings by other researchers who were researching biological aspects of it.

You know that production of DMT confirmed = micrograms of it? Or smaller trace amounts. It's created in trace amounts! Nothing to produce an experience and Gallimore would tell you that if you dared to listen carefully. That's why he says it might have been an ANCESTRAL neuromodulator, that means first it's just a big speculation, second it doesn't have any role NOWADAYS.

You are a few years backwards, if not decades, on psychedelic science.

Hm, I read all books from Strassman (more than 2) and Gallimore. Gallimore btw. has two books, among which the second one is very interesting describing the different receptor classes psychedelics work on. And a lot of papers.

At the moment, to my knowledge, it is not possible to measure how much concentration of DMT & other psychedelic compounds are being produced "live", for example by the lungs, and their concentration in the brain and brain stem. Sure, the Pineal Gland alone can not deliver the volumes required. But that is not the only place it can be produced (lungs for example, and other tissue). And it was not easy to measure the production of DMT in rats in the Pineal Gland alone. 

Until it is measureable how much of which molecules drifts in the brain & brain stem at certain states (please, along here, we cut open your skull in the name of science), and how fast they get metabolized, it is a very possible and likely working hypthesis.

Strassman: "Our working hypothesis is that elevated endogenous DMT may mediate the features of the prophetic experience that it shares with the experimental DMT effect."

Since pretty much every state has its bodily correlates, it would be rather strange if these states wouldn't.

If you have more actual information on the topic on how that hypothesis got disproven, or on how Strassman changed his opinion on this working hypothesis, I would be happy to get some material from you.

Until it is proven or disproven, and if even Strassman and Gallimore think in that direction, it remains a possible or likely working hypothesis.

Selling Water by the River

 

PS: I quoted some sources, as it is usual in scientific/academic environments. Care to enrich your claims on the "a few years or decades backwards" and "don't understand" of yours truly also in a similiar manner? I am always really interested to update my level of information.

PS PS:

Strassmans last paper (2019) listed on his Homepage was: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-45812-w

"Biosynthesisand Extracellular Concentrationsof N,N-dimethyltryptamine (DMT) in Mammalian Brain"

"The cardiac arrest-induced increase of endogenous DMT release may be related to near-death experiences (NDEs), as a recent study reports NDE-like mental states in human subjects given exogenous DMT50. Not all rats in our current study exhibited a surge of DMT following cardiac arrest (Fig. 4), an interesting observation in light of the fact that NDEs are reported by less than 20% of patients who survive cardiac arrests51. It is unknown whether the concentrations of DMT reported in our study at cardiac arrest can elicit the effects of an exogenous psychedelic dose of DMT, or whether this surge of endogenous DMT similarly occurs in humans. Moreover, the conscious states reported by NDE survivors may involve contributions from several of the other neurotransmitters found to surge at cardiac arrest in our prior rodent study21. Further investigation is clearly warranted to investigate whether DMT plays a role in generating neural correlates of near-death consciousness."

For me it reads like the working hypothesis is still valid... And the stuff gets emitted exactly where it would impact.

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

Here is the Artems site. 

https://true-freedom.net/about.html

[Adrian colby]

8 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

@Adrian colby

IMO it's just magical thinking. There is of course one primary truth of total oneness, Brahman, whatever term. Always whole, never changing, only the forms it appears as change.

A human claiming they the person have the power to override brain chemistry is I think probably BS. If you open ANYONE'S skull, even Buddha, Jesus, Leo, whoever you choose, and directly stimulate the part of the brain responsible for any given reaction, such as fear, then you will cause that reaction.

I'm very skeptical otherwise. It becomes kind of dualistic in approach, that mind and matter are two SUBSTANTIALLY different things which means your mind can ignore whatever material thing is happening. It could be true but I don't believe in it. And Sadghuru cannot levitate either.

it’s not the human person making the claim. It is the mind using the appearance of a person to communicate what the mind is doing when the idea of the person and its environment dissolves. That is not a claim that the ‘physical’ person is capable of magical feats within this reality. It is what the mind is capable of when it projects itself into a less finite reality and what it is potentially capable of if it were shed of all its limiting beliefs here. Again this is referring to the mind, not the human personality or ego or even the electrical sense perceptions of the body we mistake for thinking. Electrical signals are purely representations of information passing from an external environment to an internal mapping system based on Baisian inference. The whole thing is being hallucinated. Most neuroscientists claim the brain hallucinates its reality and still not sure of how it works. 

If I were to dissolve my reality and go and have a full blown sensory experience elsewhere, my physical reality would no longer be taking place within my awareness. I am no longer a brain or a body. If you are in the room with the body you could be mistaken that I am still physically there with you because you are experiencing and perceiving the body. The body is only taking place within your experience, not mine at that point. You are the one imagining that body. It’s part of an extension of you.

 

I don’t see mind and matter as separate. I see matter as metaphorical representations or manifestations of the minds thinking process as it tries to know things. Knowing, direct experience is what I refer to as consciousness ( con ‘with’- science ‘knowing’) it is in itself a formation of a mind derived from infinity( awareness). Everything that occurs within awareness is not awareness itself but an attribute of it… something that it does. The godhead or mind is self created from infinity and is the part that knows. All things that are thought whether original idea or materialised as form are made of knowing/creating ( consciousness)

All realities, all consciousness, all form and relativity are a part of the observer( awareness/ infinity) but not the observer itself.( it itself is formless and never changes) It’s parts or imagination is an attribute or something that it does. It’s not something that it is. I would hazard to say that the godhead is therefor also a part of that imagination and thought process which may seem infinite to us but may not be. Or even an infinity pulled from infinity. Our own individuated mind could also therefor be an infinity pulled from infinity and in the process of developing and maturing just as the godhead created itself. 
 

it would not surprise me if some one had a mind that was capable of comprehending itself as the infinite and capable of loosening itself of beliefs that keep it anchored inside only one relativity to the point it was able to step outside of it.

from my own experience there is not much to be learned from the void as nothing happens there but being awareness so all the exploration and learning takes place in relativity ( some rigid like this and some less so like dreams). So while it is understood that matter has no substance to it, it’s all imagination, I do not dismiss its importance.

 

im aware that people who go on this journey who realize that “life is an illusion” often react to that insight by dismissing reality altogether but that’s because they don’t explore further and get the point of it and why it is here.

 

we fall into the same trap when we zoom in on the little details that we argue about ( often from a materialistic perspective) and loose sight of the bigger picture.

so I’m not saying that a human ego is making a claim that it can manipulate a rigid reality as   The rule set that holds it together must remain coherent for god to continue to deceive itself enough to remain in it to experience form and relationship. When it believes itself into existence as other forms, it forgets itself till it wakes up out of its dream again. What I’m pointing at is that a mind that drops the belief it is ego or personality or even a body, can step out of its reality and form a new one albeit temporarily. It can be done with psychedelic as the easiest method but it can also be done by entraining the mind using other methods like meditation, binaural beats, amongst others. It is not something provable or evident to any ‘other’ as there is nothing to see or experience from their perspective to tell them that unit of consciousness is no longer experiencing the same reality. We can’t even do that with psychedelic. All we can do is tell stories about the experience when we resolve back into this reality or encourage someone to try it and see for themselves. The result is always subjective but metaphorical for that individuals understanding.

[VictorB02]

15 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I wasted an enormous about of time on self-inquiry and taking various enlightenment teachers too seriously. Wasted a lot of time doubting myself too much.

Thanks. I intuit that self-doubt is and will continue to be one of the big obstacles in this work.

Quote

My path was pretty natural. Whatever that means.

I dont know what I meant by that, I guess It was just another way to rephrase my first question.

Being 23 years old and having the chance to ask a seasoned practitioner  "what would you do different if you could do it over again?" is absolutely priceless. 

Edited July 14, 2023 by VictorB02

[Breakingthewall]

On second thought, I would say that psychedelics don't have an effect on you because you don't have an ego is completely bullshit. 5meo dmt minimizes neuronal symapsis in the frontal lobe. With a high dose, you will not see anything with your eyes open, nor will you have physical coordination. It doesn't matter how awake you are. It's like saying that if you're enlightened, propofol doesn't take effect, or a shot to the head.

[Water by the River]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

On second thought, I would say that psychedelics don't have an effect on you because you don't have an ego is completely bullshit. 5meo dmt minimizes neuronal symapsis in the frontal lobe. With a high dose, you will not see anything with your eyes open, nor will you have physical coordination. It doesn't matter how awake you are. It's like saying that if you're enlightened, propofol doesn't take effect, or a shot to the head.

He wrote:

On 13.7.2023 at 10:09 AM, Artem said:

I cannot detect light and medium doses of 5-MeO-DMT at all, all I feel is the taste of it, and a heavy dose is a relaxation experience for me which lasts 2-3 minutes or so

He referred to light and medium 5-MeO-DMT doses. Not high doses of 5-MeO.

Typical effects of psychedelics are (among other effects)

• Nonduality,
• Ego-dissolution (to a pretty high degree, although not the complete dissolving of any form of separate-self/individuality/transparent nondual witness merged in Unity with the Totality), and
• the visual field becoming an infinite centerless mere apperance-like "hovering" in Infinite Consciousness..

So when the separate-self is dissolved anyway/already, and Enlightenment has happened, the effects of psychedelics will change and be different. And less. The impact pf psychedelics is not as dramatic, because the things described above are already in place.

These three points/states above are in Zen already Enlightenments/Satoris/Kenshos/Awakenings. But not Great/Full Enlightenment, where the separate-self is fully transcended, and Reality/Impersonal Infinite Consciousness fully realized.

I have yet to see somebody who crossed over to Full Enlightenment only/mainly with psychedelics, with the full Deep Identity Level Shift towards Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Totality, and no separate-self left anywhere (however subtle). The subtle remaining separate-self of Individuality is still clouding the mindstream, blocking the Full Realization of Impersonal Infinite Awareness, well and alive causing suffering.

One gets 95% of the benefits of Nonduality and Infinite Consciousness already with psychedelics (the points above, energetic awakened states), but not the full impersonal thing... And that is quantum, like night and day. It is the death of the caterpillar, and the birth of the butterfly. The return home. The end of suffering. 

Main problem: Before it actually happens, one can't imagine or understand it. Because if one could, one would already be fully enlightened. 

Although that remaining Individuality/separate-self can be almost totally empty, very subtle, a transparent nondual witness... The cloud/lense/center is still there, even during all the trips... and sometimes mumbling about rodents and other parts of its experience field in less than loving way.

Breakingthewall, just an idea: Why not visit him at some time in the future, and see for yourself? Maybe even do some trips together? If he is the real deal and enlightened, you will be able verify that quite fast for yourself from the states he radiates, and what states he induces in you.

Selling Water by the River

 

 

[Moksha]

@OldManCorcoran It's a beautiful analogy, and speaks to the fundamental realization of sameness. The mystery is how the shapes appear and disappear, as something other than they essentially are. They are still god, appearing to be other than it absolutely is.

8 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

You always put emphasis on suffering. Before I was 14 years old, I did not suffer at all, I lived in the total present, that does not mean that I had a total openness to infinity, it meant that I was not focused on the image of myself and that I lived in the present.

I emphasize suffering, because it has been the path for me. There are many paths, including extremes like Ramana Maharshi, who at a young age directly realized the absolute without needing to endure decades of suffering from attachments.

Relative freedom from suffering, like you experienced at 14, is not enlightenment. Just because you aren't deeply attached to the external world doesn't mean you have directly realized god within. Animals live in the present too, but they aren't enlightened.

Suffering for its own sake also doesn't guarantee awakening. It has to be leveraged, to the deepest level of absolute surrender. Ego death isn't the absence of the ego, but the surrendering of it. Passing through the gate is grace, and grace is only granted when the sacrifice is made. If you don't have a developed ego in the first place, there's nothing to be sacrificed.

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Water by the River said:

Breakingthewall, just an idea: Why not visit him at some time in the future, and see for yourself? Maybe even do some trips together? If he is the real deal and enlightened, you will be able verify that quite fast for yourself from the states he radiates, and what states he induces in you.

Yes, I have thought the same. maybe at some point it will be possible

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, VictorB02 said:

Thanks. I intuit that self-doubt is and will continue to be one of the big obstacles in this work.

Oh yeah, especially if you keep feeding self-doubt. 

Nevertheless, it can also be an invaluable teacher when you take the plunge and are open to discovering the source of self-doubt. No doubt is too great when your heart is in the right place.

[gettoefl]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

Here is the Artems site. 

https://true-freedom.net/about.html

https://www.youtube.com/@TrueFreedom/featured

[Leo Gura]

9 hours ago, Oppositionless said:

@Leo Gura when a nondualist person for example states that consciousness can’t be explained or reduces consciousness to nothing, do you think that is just and inherent limit of the sober mind

What's technically happening is that he is dreaming so deeply that he has constructed a nondualist dream. This dream includes all the nondual theory he has learned, all the meditation retreats he went on, all the books he's read, all the teachers he's looked up to, all of his models of what consciousness is, and his own telling to himself that he has reached the end and Awoken. So when you talk to a nondualiat you are talking to a guy lost in all that, unable to see how his mind is constructing all that. And he will be in total denial about it.

Quote

does consciousness have a structure?  I’ve always wondered this. whether it has physical properties or if it really is nothing at all. 

You need to stop thinking of Consciousness as substance or medium which you can boil everything down to. Consciousness must be grasped from the top-down not from the bottom-up.

Consciousness is your entire bubble of perception. DO NOT attempt to reduce it down at all in any way. Any reduction will result in a failure to understand Consciousness. If you try to reduce it to Nothing you can create that, but you will fail grasping something much larger.

2 hours ago, VictorB02 said:

Thanks. I intuit that self-doubt is and will continue to be one of the big obstacles in this work.

I dont know what I meant by that, I guess It was just another way to rephrase my first question.

Being 23 years old and having the chance to ask a seasoned practitioner  "what would you do different if you could do it over again?" is absolutely priceless. 

Everyone's spiritual path must be unique. So copying me is not ideal. What's ideal is to pursue the deep questions in your own way using the tools I suggest.

19 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Oh yeah, especially if you keep feeding self-doubt. 

Nevertheless, it can also be an invaluable teacher when you take the plunge and are open to discovering the source of self-doubt. No doubt is too great when your heart is in the right place.

All of the mistakes I made on my path were necessary and important in hindsight. I don't regret anything.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Leo Gura

[VictorB02]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Everyone's spiritual path must be unique. So copying me is not ideal. What's ideal is to pursue the deep questions in your own way using the tools I suggest.

10-4.

Edited July 14, 2023 by VictorB02