Thoughts Do Not "arise From Nothingness"

[Salaam]

1 hour ago, Echoes said:

@Salaam Well if you are stating that what another is saying is ignorant, below your level, is twisting things to make them feel better, thats per definition a degradation of the things being said. Not necesserily of the human being.

So where exactly are we disagreeing? When you know that there is this nothingness, you should also know that it is the ground in which everything is arising and dissolving. Why would you attach to something if you are at peace and happy if you are non-attached? That doesn't make sense to me. Thats like saying "What's better not needing an orange, needing an orange, or having the ability to choose when and where you need an orange" You can enjoy the same things non-attached, and an attachement is always a illusory mental fabrication that is only real when you think it is. Why would one attach to transient things?

I'm not saying that your 13 different compound patterns or whatever isn't true, but I am saying that they are existing and arising in empty awareness. Yes, there are many modulations and things one can do with consciousness, but that doesn't change the background in which all this takes place.

I don't agree that nothingness is the ground or the start point or the beginning. Personally, I don't tunnel vision on a single thing and say that's the start. Instead I see superposition, which is particle, wave, field, void, etc all superimposed and happening at the same time, rather than one being replaced by another. That's why I push so hard against the ABSOLUTE appellation being thrown around, because it's extreme to me and breaks the delicate balance of superposition by discarding the other stuff. I don't discard, I add and transform, maintaining space for the foundational things that are all inter-connected and can flow and access and transform into each other. All the while interacting and having chemistry with each other, because it's that chemistry, that activation that courses through and outside my body alongside normal human feelings. 

Well, there are different kinds and flavors of attachment. Every time you focus on something and come to a conclusion about it, you are attaching to it and creating an internalization about that particular focus that gets stored in your body and carries with it a particular chemistry that will then influence how new things you come across and attach to that are associated with that internalization will feel in contrast. This particular process is a mix of mental and physical attachments. It is the fields that are responsible for the push and pull to attach and it's their tension that intensifies the closer something is to the cusp of attaching, but fades when something completely attaches or is to distant for it's connecting fields to activate with their chemistry. I have the ability to consciously pull and release on those fields as needed.

(This is all information derived from direct experience by the way. I can literally feel and observe that whole process unfold inside me)

1 hour ago, FirstglimpseOMG said:

Ah. And is that state not preferable to all the effort that goes into determining where synapses are firing in your 'brain' while you suffer along with the rest of us unenlightened fools? (...and silly gurus)

Just curious.

Nope, superposition is way more preferable, healthier, and creates way more evolution for me. I don't mind effort and I don't suffer. Lol, man when I was writing some of this stuff earlier it felt like breathing in pure ecstacy. It's not always the case of course, the fields I feel can bring horrible pain as well, but that's because it's honest and I'm not a victim from it (pain isn't all that bad, I even enjoy it in certain contexts and appreciate it in even more). If I fuck up or over-extend and violate the balance it will hurt me and make me sick. But, if I take my time, protect the integrity and fidelity of things, then I grow stronger and feel things that before I could never have imagined.

Honestly, most of my nights I spend trying to ignore and not get pulled into all the pleasure my body has access to. It's got a gravity to it and it's amazing, but if I over-indulge it tires out my body. Lol, same thing with sex, my orgasms are so powerful with my wife, that I have to slow down and keep myself from over-indulging in my sexuality so I don't overheat when the climax rips through me.

My energy is like a nuclear reactor. Almost literally, in that they share similar principles of volatility encased in cooling stability.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Salaam

[FirstglimpseOMG]

Wow, super-human and nuclear? 

Here I've been trying to understand and wrestle down my big ol' ego and you're already past that.

Awesome.

[Echoes]

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I don't agree that nothingness is the ground or the start point or the beginning. Personally, I don't tunnel vision on a single thing and say that's the start. Instead I see superposition, which is particle, wave, field, void, etc all superimposed and happening at the same time, rather than one being replaced by another. That's why I push so hard against the ABSOLUTE appellation being thrown around, because it's extreme to me and breaks the delicate balance of superposition by discarding the other stuff. I don't discard, I add and transform, maintaining space for the foundational things that are all inter-connected and can flow and access and transform into each other. All the while interacting and having chemistry with each other, because it's that chemistry, that activation that courses through and outside my body alongside normal human feelings

Say you start your computer and open the website actualized.org. The screen appears literally out of nothing in your field of awareness. When you turn your head away from the screen, the screen literally dissolves into nothing. The supermarket of your town is now literally nothing, only a thought. When you go to the supermarket, the supermarket appears literally out of nothing in your field of awareness. Everything you theorize other than that is theoretical speculation that can never be proven. Things like chemistry or even a brain are ideas in your field of awareness. In "pure" reality there is no such things, just the thoughts of it. There is indeed no start, neither is there an end. there is just ISness, just the timeless now and it's ever changing appearances

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Well, there are different kinds and flavors of attachment. Every time you focus on something and come to a conclusion about it, you are attaching to it and creating an internalization about that particular focus that gets stored in your body and carries with it a particular chemistry that will then influence how new things you come across and attach to that are associated with that internalization will feel in contrast. This particular process is a mix of mental and physical attachments. It is the fields that are responsible for the push and pull to attach and it's their tension that intensifies the closer something is to the cusp of attaching, but fades when something completely attaches or is to distant for it's connecting fields to activate with their chemistry. I have the ability to consciously pull and release on those fields as needed.

I can come to the conclusion "It is possible to drink tea out of a cup" without attaching to the idea. It is just a practical cognition. Of course if you are judging reality in good or bad you create certain attachments. If you are in perfect presence, there is no attachment to anything; just the ever changing arising and dissolving of pictures on the movie screen. An attachment implies a energetic bond between emotions/thoughts and a transient object, even if that object is not in your awareness.

@Salaam

Edited March 24, 2017 by Echoes

[FirstglimpseOMG]

Alright. ..nice response Echoes.. I guess if you can respond in a thoughtful, caring way I can drop the egoic smarminess and sarcasm. I get full of myself sometimes and forget I am peace and love. I apologize for the lack of contribution to the thread, along with my defensive and reactive attitude. 

Edited March 24, 2017 by FirstglimpseOMG
Changed a word

[LetTheNewDayBegin]

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Why would one attach to transient things?

How else can one interact if not by transient attachment, @Echoes   ?

I have an observation:, you keep saying non-attachment is the recipe, yet you stay so attached to this "nothing". Why is that?

Basically, all you're the fallacies of Salaam that you're exposing here, seem rather to describe your state of mind in perfect detail. Investigate, maybe your ego got attached to the concept of things coming out of nothingness?

[Echoes]

@LetTheNewDayBegin

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How else can one interact if not by transient attachment

Why should attachment be required for interaction?

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I have an observation:, you keep saying non-attachment is the recipe, yet you stay so attached to this "nothing". Why is that?

This is a thread about nothingness where we have a discussion about something we disagree with. What do you expect me to say? To agree with something I don't agree with to prove that I am not attached?

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Basically, all you're the fallacies of Salaam that you're exposing here, seem rather to describe your state of mind in perfect detail. Investigate, maybe your ego got attached to the concept of things coming out of nothingness?

Possible it is. Care to show me these examples of the fallacies that describe my mind in perfect detail? If you can I would be grateful.

Edited March 25, 2017 by Echoes

[Salaam]

On 3/24/2017 at 5:53 PM, Echoes said:

Say you start your computer and open the website actualized.org. The screen appears literally out of nothing in your field of awareness. When you turn your head away from the screen, the screen literally dissolves into nothing. The supermarket of your town is now literally nothing, only a thought. When you go to the supermarket, the supermarket appears literally out of nothing in your field of awareness. Everything you theorize other than that is theoretical speculation that can never be proven. Things like chemistry or even a brain are ideas in your field of awareness. In "pure" reality there is no such things, just the thoughts of it. There is indeed no start, neither is there an end. there is just ISness, just the timeless now and it's ever changing appearances

First of all I highly disagree with the line "everything you theorize other than that is theoretical speculation that can never be proven". It's much easier to prove that there are very real, solid things outside our immediate sphere of awareness, then the belief that everything in the universe ceases to exists once we focus on something else. How? By the simple fact that I can influence a person's reality, my own reality even by triggering things outside of their zone of awareness that then enters and carries a dominant role in their potential movement forward.

What you seem to be saying is that you believe that anything outside of your own field of awareness no longer exists and becomes nothingness? No, offense but that is almost like regressing to how a child see's the world, unable to distinguish that there are things in life outside of it's bubble of awareness, and that those things move and change independent of the child's relatively weak influence on the universe. It completely ignores limitation and inter-dependent cooperation/communication. It ignores containment, coherency, depth, range, and potential.

But, what it ignores the most is connective tension, which are the threads or fields inter-connecting everything and relaying communication from one self-contained shape to another.

Personally, because I can feel this tension, when I turn on my screen, I can feel the electricity humming and shifting, spreading out from the outlet in the wall, to transfer and spur motion in my pc and monitor. When I turn my head away from the monitor I can still feel the electricity coming off the machines and interacting with the air currents around me. It's the same thing with women, if we have a strong chemistry I can feel them in the air, before I even see them, and after we've connected I can subtly feel them around me even with my eyes closed. I feel the pull, the activating effect it has on my body and mind, and the way it shifts my focus.

This points to a very core reality of the universe. That in order to expand our awareness, we must connect and cooperate with other things, forming a synergistic bond that increases our potential. For instance, if we want to see the finger prints left on a crime scene, we must use dust in cooperation with the skin oils left at the scene to make the finger prints more distinct. Did those prints just appear out of thin air? No through the contrast of the dust and oil inter-relating, the prints were made visible enough to surpass the limitations of what the human eye could clearly pick up and distinguish.

Just like through the synergy of machine and ink, I have a printed receipt I can hold in my hand that will spur the memories stored in my head of a place that is a store, that is placed at the same address as the one printed at the top of my receipt.

On 3/24/2017 at 5:53 PM, Echoes said:

I can come to the conclusion "It is possible to drink tea out of a cup" without attaching to the idea. It is just a practical cognition. Of course if you are judging reality in good or bad you create certain attachments. If you are in perfect presence, there is no attachment to anything; just the ever changing arising and dissolving of pictures on the movie screen. An attachment implies a energetic bond between emotions/thoughts and a transient object, even if that object is not in your awareness.

@Salaam

Ah, it appears to me that you're idea of attachments might need a bit expansion and differentiation. Good and bad are judgements about attachments, which influence how you are relating to the attachment and are derived from chemistry, but they are steps after the actual attachment itself. Every belief you have is an attachment, every conception that connects a word in a language with a particular configuration of shape (object) is an attachment. When you eat, drink, and breathe something your body breaks it down and attaches with it's part and pieces, literally absorbing what is useful and releasing it's attachment on what is not, to be expelled from your body.

Our bodies have different ways and mechanisms of attaching, and so to does our mind, our focus, our relationships... they all involve connection and some configuration of attachment. Every preference, every distaste carries with it a physical response of push/pull that mediates as the different layers and parts of our body come into contact with the potentiality of attraction/repulsion for a given thing. 

Then there are degrees of attachment, intensities of attachment, configurations and flavors of attachment, and then the chemistry of that attachment as it relates to other attachments or potential attachments. Like, the repulsive chemistry some here have to my assertion's about the flaws of absolutism, in comparison to their attractive chemistry they have for the internalized belief about the "truth" of absolutism.




 

[Echoes]

@Salaam Let me ask you this first: do you belief that there exists a material outside world, and you are a human inside this world?

It is in fact impossible to prove an external world. Any "prove" you might take would be inside your direct consciousness and would then require a causal interpretation between an event outside of you and the "prove". 

What you describe with the screen is not the visual screen itself, but interpretations of other sensual sources like hearing or feeling that there is this screen even if you don't watch it. That is a belief. In actual experience, the (visual) screen dissolves into nothingness.

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Every belief you have is an attachment, every conception that connects a word in a language with a particular configuration of shape (object) is an attachment

Yes, every belief is an attachment, because it is the assumption of a concept being true or very probable, or having some judgement over a concept. But I don't agree that every concept is in itself an attachment. Concepts can arise and dissolve in the field of awareness without being attached to them. Just like a tree can arise and dissolve in your field of awareness when you drive through a forest.

[FirstglimpseOMG]

@Salaam In my opinion and understanding, The Holographic Principle very effectively and convincingly explains how we interact with others in a world of no 'objects'. Leonard Susskind et al have it down. It baffled me for a while too, as to how something physical, but brand new & never seen before outside of my home by anyone, ever (like an original painting or sculpture.), could be seen and enjoyed by another entity in a world of no real objects. How can a new object be recognized and interacted with when prior to it's creation (from no-thing), it did not exist in any perceivable manner? Like if I painted a picture and left it on your doorstep and you stumbled over it upon leaving for work and said, "Oh a painting, very nice."... how do you perceive matter within consensus reality when there is none, and how is any self-consistency maintained when the individual seemingly evokes his world from Nothing AS he moves through it?!! 

The Holographic principle explains that there is self-consistency in evidence when two observer's worlds overlap, as in a Venn diagram. The two Holographic regions, defined by the light-speed and dark energy-couched boundaries for the observers, overlap due to the (consistent) information encoded in and projected to each observer from those boundaries. It takes a quantum leap of insight to get there. Speaking of quantum mechanics and insights, I honestly wonder how it is that you base your hypothesis on one set of current quantum theories, mis-understanding, and subverting those even, then further the misguided play of ignoring and/or not researching and considering other major quantum theories. If you're going to quote and hypothesize from a quantum mechanics perspective, why not include and understand the bigger quantum picture and not just cherry-pick the aspects that work into your story?

I may be totally wrong in my explanation and understanding of what the craziness of quantum theories points to, and I may even be completely (okay, not completely) deluded considering the reality that science really does go out the window in the LARGER CONTEXT of no-self, but if I'm basing my reality on quantum mechanics, accurate or flimsy, I'm sure as hell including the whole thing.

 

 

Edited March 30, 2017 by FirstglimpseOMG
Grammar, changed a bit of content

[Salaam]

2 hours ago, FirstglimpseOMG said:

@Salaam In my opinion and understanding, The Holographic Principle very effectively and convincingly explains how we interact with others in a world of no 'objects'. Leonard Susskind et al have it down. It baffled me for a while too, as to how something physical, but brand new & never seen before outside of my home by anyone, ever (like an original painting or sculpture.), could be seen and enjoyed by another entity in a world of no real objects. How can a new object be recognized and interacted with when prior to it's creation (from no-thing), it did not exist in any perceivable manner? Like if I painted a picture and left it on your doorstep and you stumbled over it upon leaving for work and said, "Oh a painting, very nice."... how do you perceive matter within consensus reality when there is none, and how is any self-consistency maintained when the individual seemingly evokes his world from Nothing AS he moves through it?!! 

The Holographic principle explains that there is self-consistency in evidence when two observer's worlds overlap, as in a Venn diagram. The two Holographic regions, defined by the light-speed and dark energy-couched boundaries for the observers, overlap due to the (consistent) information encoded in and projected to each observer from those boundaries. It takes a quantum leap of insight to get there. Speaking of quantum mechanics and insights, I honestly wonder how it is that you base your hypothesis on one set of current quantum theories, mis-understanding, and subverting those even, then further the misguided play of ignoring and/or not researching and considering other major quantum theories. If you're going to quote and hypothesize from a quantum mechanics perspective, why not include and understand the bigger quantum picture and not just cherry-pick the aspects that work into your story?

I may be totally wrong in my explanation and understanding of what the craziness of quantum theories points to, and I may even be completely (okay, not completely) deluded considering the reality that science really does go out the window in the LARGER CONTEXT of no-self, but if I'm basing my reality on quantum mechanics, accurate or flimsy, I'm sure as hell including the whole thing.

 

 

First, the holographic principle is only an idea at this point with no direct evidence, nor formal proof and so far only applies to hypothetical universes. In my view it's an oversimplification that allows scientists to get their math to work in imaginary situations, but has yet to be found viable in real world situations with complex dynamics. It sounds nice for some and it makes things seem easier, but in my view it suffers from "corruption through reduction via simplicity" which creates a distortion in our perspective of reality (just like absolute nothingness as a paradigm in my experience).

Second, I am basing what I say on first hand direct experience that comes from many years spent developing the core capabilities that determine the depth, quality, and coherency of that first-hand experience. I use science's observations of reality to corroborate that first-hand experience, it is secondary to my experiential knowledge. I am not just theorizing about the core things I talk about, I have practical application and real life success with them. I can point to examples of my 13 core dynamics occurring all over reality, both within me and outside me. They are foundational and universal patterns of movement.

Third, you talked about "something physical, but brand new & never seen before outside of my home by anyone, ever (like an original painting or sculpture)". There is a VERY important difference between a brand new combination of existing things and something completely or absolutely brand new.

That painting was formed, not created in the absolute sense, by combining different pigments and then applying them to a canvas in a particular pattern. Then some one applied effort to transport it to your door. There is a sequence of events, a sequence of combinations in every facet of "creation". But, when you make the mistake of focusing on a static absolute you lose touch with the steps in the sequence while at the same time losing awareness of the previous steps taken for a shape to be in the current form that your conjecture is starting with (like the cotton or linen the canvas was derived from). That is in essence what the holographic principle does for scientists, by following it they create a focus with two static points rather than staying connected with the whole process of constant movement, because "it's easier" or "more economical". It presupposes an absolute containment, which ignores or discards the potentiality for permeability and access to expansion beyond their "beginning and ending" points.

In my experience the compulsion to attach to absolutes is a sign of lacking tensile resiliency in a person's mind which leads to focusing on extremes and static positions, rather than maintaining the tension of constant motion and nuance, plus constant access to potentiality/change (there is a difference between constant and absolute). Internalizing too much of a static position will make a person rigid and atrophy different inter-relations which a person relies on for the proper functioning of certain capabilities like differentiation as mentioned above. Basically, people get subtly pushed around by the pressures of life, which subconsciously pushes their mind and emotions, influencing them to attach to extremes and derive paradigms based on extremes. Human history is rife with this problem and those paradigms are deeply rooted, but hopefully we can evolve from them before it's too late. It's something I've been working on for years by gaining access to deeper layers of my sub-conscious and working with pressure differentials, plus many other things.

 

[FirstglimpseOMG]

My understanding is that there is no causality in the universe. Also, I'm not sure there's anything static or not about the absolute. My understanding is that the absolute has no 'qualities' or quantities, therefore we miss the mark when attributing any qualities to the absolute other than infinite, loving, potential. As far as I can tell, the Absolute, Infinity, Source, God, The Unified Field, whatever the label, is the pure potential of life, unlimited, unbounded, uncoloured and unaffected by whatever 'objects' are manifested; you, your car, your house, the tree, your 'mind'...

I really don't claim to 'know' anything. It's early in this new search, experiment, practise, path, for me.

I may just be having trouble relating to what appears to be your strong identification and attachment to the feats and deeds of 'mind', while I struggle to understand what's going on, let alone transcend it.

I may also be misunderstanding your larger context. Is there a larger context? Are most spiritual or non-dual seekers not tryng to understand, then transcend the body-mind? In identifying strongly, or at all I guess, with mind, does the quest for truth, spirituality, non-duality subside for you? Also, are you sure you're not suffering.. until you do some suffering? I don't want to project my experience of suffering onto you, your blanket statements just throw me off.  I may be missing the point, isn't the human condition what we're trying to transcend? Isn't the mind what ultimately messes with the natural radiant beauty of life itself, despite the mind performing brilliantly most of the time, (until it comes to existence and reality)?

[Salaam]

@FirstglimpseOMG

Cool questions

Does your idea of transcend include your humanity, body, and mind or do you see transcendence as some change from who you currently are that allows you to discard those things? Are you adding onto yourself or just looking to replace one thing with another? Do you ever not just ask, but feel within yourself what is pushing you towards these choices you make for yourself?

It seems like a lot of people in the world are hoping to be a god, or invulnerable, or seeking escape from the pressures of life with their efforts in spirituality. But, my experiences with growth and life paint a different picture. I have no need of escape and I've found the tools I've been searching for and use them now. I'm here to build, to nurture, shelter, and foster the goldilocks zone of life that best harmonizes and synergizes with this world, universe, and humanity. And I can and will and often have gone to the deepest, darkest, and most brutal places to make that happen, as well as the lightest, softest, and most beautiful. I aim to be the harmonized and synergized mixture of both.

I've suffered a lot in my life, but have also succeeded immensely as well. Isolation, depression, rage, prison, deep intimacy, love, peace, and freedom... I'm thankful to have touched both sides. I wrote the below a little over a year ago, maybe you can feel something from it, that the more intellectually based discussions we've been having might not have communicated about me.

I remember how hard I used to work to feel pleasure, to understand it, the frustration and despair I used to feel around it. I felt like a broken, withered man, maimed and chained, buried underneath desert sand, with a single ray of light, and a humble drop of trickling water to sustain me at times. I used to identify so strongly with that image of myself, buried, maimed, and chained, but fuck, I can breathe and drink so fully now!

I understand the chains, I've become super capable with them, so now the part of me that are those chains work with me and become boundaries I choose. Integrity and clarity. Order. But, order balanced with flow, so the water is no longer a humble trickle, but an ocean inside me. I can drink any time I want and I can heal now, so I am no longer as maimed, but instead scarred, yet deeply capable. And since I am capable and healthy now, I can speak from all of me. I can stand and who I am is no longer buried. I'm up on that sand now, not in a hole, building my Oasis. Stretching my wings.

My friend believes I've passed the shit-level stage of kinda sorta mastering myself (mastering the foundations of how I learn and live) when I shifted my anchors and everything I'm seeing so far, seems to be bearing that out. All my work, the nuance, uncovering structure, facing and connecting the dynamics, handling the stress and pain, healing from my mistakes, and balancing and building something is bearing fruit.

It makes me happy, I appreciate it deeply as I run my mind through all the different details that add to my life and I feel grateful as I see the contrast in how life would be like without them. God, what if I had believed society and just took what they handed me with this rat race? I remember when I was grabbed by the feeling that something I had been waiting for my whole life, was within my grasp. It was like a scent my soul picked up on and refused to let go and it's sustained me for many years, when I had no idea what the fuck I was doing.

I'm thankful to have been able to build my own way of being good at life and changing my view of myself from maimed and chained to free and self-sustained. I didn't have to obey or follow anybody, and I didn't need any higher power. Fuck power, I became capable and harmonious with my nature and I became connected and trustworthy. How could I not, with the amazing people so close to me, who are doing the same?

My soul, my mind, my consciousness, my senses, my instinct, and the forces within and without that are constantly flowing through and around me are all distinct for me, but deeply inter-connected. I have access to all and we communicate and cooperate within this mix of life. We are not enemies, I don't have to kill them or disconnect from them, or demonize them as illusions. Those reactions come across as primitive to me and are based in a scarcity of capability, communication, and harmony. A scarcity of understanding...

Anyways, that's enough talking about me. The point is, there is a better, more harmonious way then these extreme choices that are tainted by the pressures pushing us when we suffer. I mean, look at how long the world suffered before it was able to support enough life for beings like us. Look how quickly that fragile beauty is being destroyed by the imbalanced and short-sighted choices of our population. Life is brutal when we don't build and develop shelters of balance and harmony. We don't make things better by escaping or seeking godhood, no we build and put our hands deep into the mud, so our foundations are rooted and grounded. Cooperatively building life, one step, one addition at a time.

[ChimpBrain]

Damn, your writing skills and ability to explain a concept are impressive! Props, that was beautiful! 

[Salaam]

2 minutes ago, ChimpBrain said:

Damn, your writing skills and ability to explain a concept are impressive! Props, that was beautiful! 

Thanks man It's taken many years to diversify all these different movements and patterns inside myself while still maintaining their fragile connection and coherency with each other. But, it's worth it when I can both enjoy the fruits for myself and share it with others and provide some value for you all.