When is radical honesty too much?

[trenton]

I read the book. Others on the forum recommend that I apply what I've learned. I have been opening up to my family on a lot of serious issues. so far I have made great progress. There is one last thing I have not told them about. It is about my father.

Is it okay to tell my grandma that I'm happy my piece of shit father is dead? She is very sensitive about her son. She takes it as a personal attack when talking about all the horrible things my father did. She needs to understand that she did everything in her power to be a good mother, but her son was beyond her control. Her grand children were hurt deeply because of it. I don't blame her for being a bad person or anything. It is just painful for her to love her son as it is painful for me to love my father.

A few things about my father. He was involved in gang violence. He was a drug dealer. He fled the state to avoid paying child support. He committed statutory rape when he impregnated my mother. I am trying the forgiveness exercise on him but am experiencing a lot of intense anger toward myself for being blinded by my unconditional love for my father.

My father manipulated me. He preached the bible as if the father son bond was sacred. He wanted me to carry on some grand legacy with the Hamann name rather than holding my mother's last name. It was all fake. He wanted to use me as a pawn against my mother to get out of paying child support. He threatened to disown me if I told mom how he was evading child support. He therefore coerced me into committing a felony because of how he made me swear to secrecy.

My feelings toward my father are that I love him even though exploited my love for him to use me as a pawn. It feels easy to love dad but very hard to love myself. I hate myself for loving my father. I judged mom for refusing to evict my step father because of her emotional weakness. I'm angry at myself for having the same emotional weakness that prevented me from sending my father to prison for the rest of his life.

I deceived myself easily as I lied for my father. I drew a false equivalence between my father and abusive step father who destroyed the house and beat my mom. My father's side of the family told me that mom's side was the untrustworthy ones and I felt that nobody could be trusted. This played into my father's hands. Furthermore, I felt that family values were meaningless. I applied it to my whole family, causing me to feel depressed. I hate myself for defending my father in a way that hurt the rest of my family.

I can forgive myself for doing everything in my power to be good. I still need time. Is it okay to be this honest with my grandma? My sisters were against it. They told me that I am too honest and I need to hold the truth back. They told me that I may have caused a man to commit suicide when I told him "I am not optimistic about your future, but you don't deserve to suffer."

[Recursoinominado]

I guess radical honesty is healthy towards oneself, not towards others.

When dealing with others, is good to be diplomatic without lies, but it depends on the relationship, the topic and the context.

[integral]

Arent you drowning in some story that has nothing to do with you today? 

Some doctor gave me drugs years ago that really fucked up my body and im still effected by it today. At the time I hated the ridiculous system that put me in this position, eventually i forgot about it and moved on. 

Forget and move on, why do you feel you need to hold on to all this? Living in the past. Focus on the present and future, go have fun. 

---

The exact story and details of it all dont matter, all that matters is you holding on to a emotion about this story.

Its an emotion not a external event or other people or your father or any of that.

When the emotion comes up, feel the emotion with out thinking about anything specific, Feel deeply into the emotion and meditate in silence with that emotion present. 

Your confusing an emotion for a story. 

---

To answer the question, NO people do not want to be told YOUR truth. No one is ready for it and it will only hurt them. Telling them the truth is 100% about you and your selfish desires. It accomplish nothing but to get what you want with your agenda. 

Speak to others lovingly within the boundaries of there limitations. 

Edited July 7, 2023 by integral

[trenton]

1 hour ago, integral said:

The exact story and details of it all dont matter, all that matters is you holding on to a emotion about this story.

Its an emotion not a external event or other people or your father or any of that.

When the emotion comes up, feel the emotion with out thinking about anything specific, Feel deeply into the emotion and meditate in silence with that emotion present. 

Your confusing an emotion for a story. 

This summarizes what I have been struggling with. I sometimes feel intense anger, but I don't know what to do with it. I'm afraid of losing control so I shut down. I look for ways to make sense of this anger, but I constantly fail. I'm doing my best to process feelings that have not been fully processed. It's just painful. I don't plan on being stuck in this forever. I see a psychiatrist in about a week and a half.

1 hour ago, integral said:

To answer the question, NO people do not want to be told YOUR truth. No one is ready for it and it will only hurt them. Telling them the truth is 100% about you and your selfish desires. It accomplish nothing but to get what you want with your agenda. 

Speak to others lovingly within the boundaries of there limitations. 

It doesn't seem that way to me right now, but I will keep that in mind. It seems like a good spot to draw the line.

[trenton]

@integral part of the problem may be that I refuse to believe that my suffering was for nothing. It can make me hold onto the past. There is still a feeling that I hate myself. I've been struggling to love myself forever, but I'm getting better at it.

[Schizophonia]

Nah, you don't like your dad. I don't know why you bother saying you love him when you clearly don't.

[trenton]

45 minutes ago, Schizophonia said:

Nah, you don't like your dad. I don't know why you bother saying you love him when you clearly don't.

It's possible to feel both.

Part of me loves dad. Part of me is ashamed of myself for loving dad. Part of me hates myself. Part of me loves myself. Part of me believes I should have dad to mitigate my own shame. Part of me hates dad. I hate dad because I love him and I am ashamed of myself for allowing myself to be manipulated through my love for him.

I know the forum thinks I linger on the past a lot. I do it because I'm trying to love myself. I should get tired of telling this story eventually. Deep down it feels fake on some level and I don't understand what to do with it.

[trenton]

@integral it's coming up again. The feeling that I hate my entire family came up. I could tell them that I have been hiding in my room for so long because I believed them to be degenerate. I am trying to form an emotional connection to others, but when I try what comes up is hatred, depression, and suicide.

If I could somehow change myself without telling them, then I guess it would be fine. I'm trying to change like I always have been, but it doesn't work.

The reason I don't socialize much us because I don't want others to change me or influence me. I don't trust most people to be high quality people. I have looked down on most other humans my entire life. I look down on myself as well for failing to find a higher purpose that fulfills me in life. I can never be fulfilled with any purpose if depression kills my joy.

I'm opening myself up, but it is a hectic process. I'm sorry if I annoy you with the same story. My morals do not apply to today and they cause me a lot of problems. I say I hate myself a lot, but it feels more true to say I hate my family. I probably shouldn't tell them that yet.

[Leo Gura]

When I tell folks I'm the only one understanding AWAKENING.

[Loving Radiance]

On 7.7.2023 at 3:57 PM, trenton said:

Is it okay to be this honest with my grandma? My sisters were against it. They told me that I am too honest and I need to hold the truth back. They told me that I may have caused a man to commit suicide when I told him "I am not optimistic about your future, but you don't deserve to suffer."

Radical honesty is not brutal honesty.

[Nemra]

@trenton Whatever you do, remember that being honest backfires if you are not doing it wisely. It's great that you can see issues in families. I understand the feeling of seeing all of the gaslighting and illusions in families.

I think to properly be honest with your family, you must first take care of your survival or create a safe space to process all of your emotions.

[trenton]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

When I tell folks I'm the only one understanding AWAKENING.

@Leo Gura I have basically been creating a split personality. I have a lot of cool philosophical theories, but it is partially because I was struggling to cure deep depression and hatred. I am now trying to walk the walk, knowing that love and goodness are one. It is like I'm so close yet so far.

I need to mature a lot and it is painful. This is going to take time and vision. I need to face everything I have been avoiding through spirituality so that I can create integrity in my life and resolve my split personality.

[trenton]

10 hours ago, Understander said:

@trenton Whatever you do, remember that being honest backfires if you are not doing it wisely. It's great that you can see issues in families. I understand the feeling of seeing all of the gaslighting and illusions in families.

I think to properly be honest with your family, you must first take care of your survival or create a safe space to process all of your emotions.

The tragedy is that I am in desperate need of an emotional connection. I have been dissociated with my family my entire life and I can't connect to them if they don't know who I am. I am not being brutally honest yet, but a few things are slipping out here and there and they think it is too much.

I told my cousin that my sisters were talking behind his back. They will probably tell me that I am in the wrong. My sisters expect me to play small talk games without addressing these serious issues. I'm trying to get accustomed to small talk. I have never been good at socializing in my life, especially when reading implicit messages. I have a habit of destroying illusions constantly while asking a lot of questions. 

[integral]

@trenton How does Maslow's hierarchy of needs relate to your life, how would you view your situation from that framing? 

[trenton]

20 minutes ago, integral said:

@trenton How does Maslow's hierarchy of needs relate to your life, how would you view your situation from that framing? 

I need a sense of belonging. I don't feel like I belong in my family. They want me to put on a fake front of being open and social while refusing to actually address serious resentment and trauma. My relationship feels hollow because they do not want me to be my authentic self. There is way too much hatred and depression that I have bottled up for 20 years. I never trusted them to raise me to be a decent human being so I didn't want to associate with them. 

If these issues cannot be seriously addressed, then I need to find where I belong and it is not here. I feel happy when I am alone in a hotel playing in a chess tournament. It is incredible how peaceful it is and my joy cannot be put into words. I'm almost tempted to quit my job and use the money I saved up to study chess hard-core like my life depends on it to see how far I get in 1 year.

[trenton]

@integral to be honest, I sometimes feel like I don't belong on this planet. This can be rooted in autism. Neuro typicals don't want people with autism to be their authentic self. Part of the problem is that they are too blunt and they suck at social games.

[Hojo]

just say it bruh if its bugging you you need to get it off your chest and you are telling yourself you want to tell your grandma.

Dont ignore it thats the dumbest advice ive heard it will still be there.

You gotta get it off cause you are holding onto it it has become you you need to cry and release

Thats like you carrying a backpack and you are saying my back is hurting I want to cry and someone telling you just pretend its not there.

Its never too much to express yourself and who ever tells you that is gas lighting you and your emotions are the ultimate emotions of the universe.

Dont worry about what others think you dont have control over that and can never so dont try. You have control over yours and you can see them overflowing so let tears and truth flow

Just think it through and say it

Edited July 13, 2023 by Hojo

[integral]

@trenton I have no idea how to transition out of the 3rd stage (love and belong) as ive never experienced not belonging. So it was given to me for free by family and environment.

Most people here will not know how to grow from this stage as they never consciously needed to. 

Got to read some books on the topic, im not finding good information online. 

Edited July 13, 2023 by integral

[UnbornTao]

First and foremost, telling the truth must be done towards oneself.

Contemplate: what is honesty? Honesty isn't about spitting whatever comes to your mind at any moment as that is yet another manipulation serving your self-agenda -- it's obviously motivated by self-interest. Neither is it being reactive and destructive or acting out one's anger.

In social interactions, caution is advised. For example, it may be true that you're angry at someone but at the same time it may also be true that you love her, and so don't want to hurt her.

Consider how the principle of honesty is dynamic and context-dependent. Honesty isn't antithetical to care, sympathy and sensitivity.

Edited July 14, 2023 by UnbornTao

[trenton]

@UnbornTao my entire attachment to truth is fundamentally dishonest. I know that my attachment to truth hurts me, but I do it anyway. It is self serving because I think truth is what allows me to love and to be good through unconditional acceptance. Honestly I suck at unconditional acceptance because I'm filled with hate and depression. If you value truth, then even that comes from a selfish desire for truth. It's not like truth is actually valuable, but I act like it is and it matters anyway. I could rewire my entire brain to fine with self deception and bullshit myself into thinking everything is fine, but I don't want to do that. I have been against that my whole life because I want to love. The problem is that it is hard to love.