A little bit about me (NOT leo)

[Someone here]

Disclaimer: I am NOT trying to put Leo's teachings in a bad light or anything.. this is simply words of caution for those who are prone to depression and also pathologically and seek truth in all aspects of existence.

I used to be a "light Hindu" as a child .. I was brought up with the notion that there is some sort of God and afterlife.. but I never cared anything about it and didn't really pay the God question any time.

In my teens I started getting existential.. unlike most teenagers..but also  unlike most teenagers I got almost obsessive.

Leo's videos helped me to move from stage blue to stage orange (before even hearing of spiral dynamics yet ). The separate God/after life perished from the realm of "possible" quite soon because his videos In 2016. Objective morality followed shortly after that . Free will evaporated as well easily once my intellect had taken full control of my mind.

The last "battle" for my sanity was the ultimate "Is there ANY sort of meaning to life" question. And fair to say: sanity lost to reason once more.

A few months post these radical realizations ..a realization added ontop of years of those other realizations I found myself isolated..without any ability to think forward in time. I was stuck in a frozen brick of existence. I tried to desperately fool myself back into the "safe" blissful ignorance. I tried to convince myself that I could live normally again without those comforting beliefs that leo have shattered for me ... But I realized it was just a futile reflex trying to perserve my being.

Then I decided to join the forum .I joined two years ago ..and started asking questions nonstop to the point Leo has threatened me to "do the work " and stop "mentally masturbating" my way to awakening.  But what he meant is I should basically start doing psychedelics  .I couldn't get my hands on any because of their illegality in India. I went to Thailand to hunt some hookers few months ago but also I found that all psychedelics are banned there .

So I continued posting here my contemplations and my mental masturbations .

And to be honest ..I had glimpses of the "Ox " here and there just listening to Leo's videos . Until I stumbled upon his solipsism video .and that was the final nail in my coffin. Ever since I listened to that video I can't get out of my mind the idea that I'm all alone (the only conscious "thing " in existence ,as Leo tells the viewer in that video).

I went mad for a while  .my ego was out of control.

It took almost  a year to get past it. It took more than a few sexual experiences ..learning some skills or making some money .i told myself One day you'll realise how stupid you were for thinking any of that would help.

I overcame it through understanding that not only did I not have all the answers..but that the answers I had were not the whole story. There's far more grey than there is black or white.

I told myself: "Why are you so concerned with things you can't do a thing to change? What difference will knowing "the truth" actually make in your life? If you focus your mind on things you can't influence.. you will naturally become detached and depressed".

I suffered.. and still suffer.. from clinical anxiety disorder. I formed a nihilistic view on life before I'd ever even heard of the word..or the works of philosophers like Nietzsche. Yet.. I've found..existentialism and nihilism to be of benefit to my mental welbeing.  Although.. I can understand how the idea that life is inherently futile could be construed as depressing.

But now ..I consider myself "enlightened ".

NOW what do I mean by that ?

I mean the following:

I no longer believe in any thing .no belief systems whatsoever. Not even direct experience. Nothing at all. Total and complete not knowing and childlike wonder  . I see all worldviews including nonduality and solipsism as just mental noise . I'm completely free from the shackles of the conceptual mind .I see that nothing I think or deduce has nothing to do with TRUTH. 

TRUTH is more serious than finding it on a forum or listening to a guy talking on YouTube. You must commit your whole life to it .and that's what Leo is doing .and I'm not.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Someone here

[Yimpa]

Thank you for opening up. I really resonated with your story. It honestly takes guts to constantly be facing your demons all the time… but you know what? You’re now discovering something within you that’s even greater than your former paradigms.

Keep going. You’re on the right path. We’re glad you’re here growing along with us!

[Someone here]

@Yimpa thank you?. You are really a sweet and nice person (even though I don't know you but your posts are like the cherry on top of the cake in most threads ).

I think I'm going through a mild  existential crisis now and it explains (in part) why i was drawn to these ideas. And it explains why many teenagers are. (Leo's  stuff sound really deep and embracing its darkness which  can make a person feel that they themselves are deep or appear deep to others. so there is often another draw at work there..but which is not particularly relevant here.)

[Yimpa]

@Someone here The person… is not so deep. But there is a much higher intelligence at work, and it is not separate from you (despite you imagining it to be).

Like with all teachings, Leo’s are also pointers. The more extreme it gets, it appears to be getting even more overwhelming. Yes, from my experience it was like that temporarily. But as you continue the work, you realize that even the extreme examples are the same pointers to your true nature.

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Like with all teachings, Leo’s are also pointers. The more extreme it gets, it appears to be getting even more overwhelming. Yes, from my experience it was like that temporarily. But as you continue the work, you realize that even the extreme examples are the same pointers to your true nature

I agree.  It can be my interpretation of what Leo is teaching is causing me to be pissed off  

So..Leo's teachings In themselves did not do it to me. They  just provided a cognitive shape for the growing angst i was feeling.

Just like a  depressed person always dwells on certain thoughts that confirm for them their depression .I t is characteristic of depression to focus on things that seem to confirm the depressive state. It is part of why depression is such a hell to get out of. So.. one can certainly feed their down with downer philosophy. True fact.  

[Yimpa]

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Just like a  depressed person always dwells on certain thoughts that confirm for them their depression .I t is characteristic of depression to focus on things that seem to confirm the depressive state. It is part of why depression is such a hell to get out of. So.. one can certainly feed their down with downer philosophy. True fact.  

I choose to allow the depressed person to be. In our ignorant desire to help, we actually grow the story that the depressed person thrives on. 

[Someone here]

12 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

I choose to allow the depressed person to be. In our ignorant desire to help, we actually grow the story that the depressed person thrives on. 

Exactly! 

I'm afraid we're losing the real virtues of living life passionately in the sense of taking responsibility for who we are..the ability to make something of yourself and feel good about life..we were taught to not accept reality as it is but to do everything possible in order to change our present condition which is not good  enough.  

Thing is ...it will NEVER EVER be enough ?

[Water by the River]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

I no longer believe in any thing .no belief systems whatsoever. Not even direct experience. Nothing at all. Total and complete not knowing and childlike wonder  . I see all worldviews including nonduality and solipsism as just mental noise . I'm completely free from the shackles of the conceptual mind .I see that nothing I think or deduce has nothing to do with TRUTH. 

TRUTH is more serious than finding it on a forum or listening to a guy talking on YouTube. You must commit your whole life to it .and that's what Leo is doing .and I'm not.

Thanks for your post. Please allow me some musings on these topics.

You write "I no longer believe in any thing. no belief systems whatsoever". That itself is a belief system, and pretty close to Nihilism. And that causes a performative contradiction

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction

which can make one a Nihilistic and/or Narcissistic self-contradiction walking on two feet. And an (internal) contradiction is a (internal) conflict, leading to suffering.

In the Relative Truth domain (not on the Absolute Truth domain), one can not do without beliefs/view/perspective/value system. Even saying there is no value system is a value judgement and system, that produces its own contradictions, therefor suffering and Karma.

For the difference between Relative Truth and Absolute Truth:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine

These contradiction in ones value system (or between stated value system and actions) seem to be a bit in fashion nowadays in certain recent events, although some have even spotted and stated that dynamic, but apparently are a bit challenged implementing that insight.

• And whereever is a conflict (either within the value system, or between the value system and external behaviour, or just between ones intentions and ones bubble of Reality/Visual Field/Universe, there is suffering. Or conflict and other less-than-loving consequences. It is not yet integrated, or equilibrium and integrity are not yet fully achieved).
• A very wise statement is in @Moksha signature: "Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos."
  • Of course, that only becomes possible with certain transcendence of separate-self-elements trying to shape the cosmos according to its egoic demands. To be able to do what the quote describes means aligning ones own intentions with the intentions of the cosmos, and intepreting these intentions correctly (and this is where a good relative-truth value/belief-system is crucial, which aligns with the cosmos. Only such a belief/value-system can "carry" any permanent realization of transcendence). And allowing to get shaped by the cosmos in a good way. 
    • And that is why yours truly has the utmost respect of the delusion-forces of Narcissism and self-grandiosity, in whatever form they come. And Narcicissm and self-grandiosity is the final stop of the Nihilism/Solipsism-train, always. The separate-self is a structure/Gestalt built to cloud transcendence/Truth, and these tools are Mayas most seductive and most difficult to transcend devices to keep beings trapped. It takes ruthless self-honesty, self-awareness and integrity to get rid of these bugs.

It is no coincidence that a Solipsism done on Ego-level/relative-level  (not on Absolute Level, there we can talk about it) leads to Narcissism, and finally Nihilism, and then suffering. Ken Wilber writes a lot on the performative contradiction (especially of the green meme) in Boomeritis. It goes: Relativism, Nihilism, Narcissism (nobody tell me what to do!), self-grandiosity, suffering.

Good views and belief systems, true on a relative level, can lead one to Absolute Truth, Love and Transcendence. To a good life with minimum amount of suffering. Bad views just lead to more suffering and self-contraction.

Realization itself rests on a good and conflict-free belief- and value system on a relative level. Good views/value systems liberate (and lead to non-conceptual practice and transcendence), bad ones directly lead to the hell that Samsara can be.

All the best! 

Selling Water by the River

Edited July 5, 2023 by Water by the River

[Someone here]

10 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

You write "I no longer believe in any thing. no belief systems whatsoever". That itself is a belief system, and pretty close to Nihilism. And that causes a performative contradiction

Its not a belief to drop all beliefs . If you asked me : will the sun rise tomorrow?  I would tell you: I have no idea . Unlike 99.99999% of people will answer YES and few crazy fanatics suicidally depressed people will answer NO.

If you take a random person off the street and ask him /her :" where did the universe come from "? They will tell you "probably God created it ". For me the answer is "fuck knows!".

14 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

which can make one a Nihilistic and/or Narcissistic self-contradiction walking on two feet. And an (internal) contradiction is a (internal) conflict, leading to suffering.

In the Relative Truth domain (not on the Absolute Truth domain), one can not do without beliefs/view/perspective/value system. Even saying there is no value system is a value judgement and system, that produces its own contradictions, therefor suffering and Karma.

Of course.i still eat and breathe and shit .nothing on the relative day to day life has changed. It's just the conceptual story of what reality is ..THAT has evaporated completely. I live my life simply.  Existential questions?  I don't give a crap no more .

17 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

These contradiction in ones value system (or between stated value system and actions) seem to be a bit in fashion nowadays in certain recent events, although some have even spotted and stated that dynamic, but apparently are a bit challenged implementing that insight.

• And whereever is a conflict (either within the value system, or between the value system and external behaviour, or just between ones intentions and ones bubble of Reality/Visual Field/Universe, there is suffering. Or conflict and other less-than-loving consequences. It is not yet integrated, or equilibrium and integrity are not yet fully achieved).

No..a contradiction is a linguistic peculiarity..a statement that cannot be true as it asserts something is and isn’t.. which is simply meaningless.. and therefore can’t have a truth value.

The word “not” is a negation. “Red” refers to a specific colour. “Not red” refers to any colour other than red.. could be blue.. could be green.. just any colour other than red.

On a more deep level.. let’s look at this example. If you’re reading this response.. you obviously exist. Can you really say that you simultaneously don’t exist? That you have capabilities (like the ability to read) and don’t at the same time? That’s absurd. That’s just not what not means. So no.. a contradiction cannot truly exist..which is why we can have things like proof by contradiction..and indeed. .reality itself.

19 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

very wise statement is in @Moksha signature: "Just because God loves you doesn't mean it is going to shape the cosmos to suit you. God loves you so much that it will shape you to suit the cosmos."

Agreed ?. 

20 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Of course, that only becomes possible with certain transcendence of separate-self-elements trying to shape the cosmos according to its egoic demands. To be able to do what the quote describes means aligning ones own intentions with the intentions of the cosmos, and intepreting these intentions correctly (and this is where a good relative-truth value/belief-system is crucial, which aligns with the cosmos. Only such a belief/value-system can "carry" any permanent realization of transcendence). And allowing to get shaped by the cosmos in a good way. 

 

You still think that you have to do something in order to get  somehow to  something in somewhere. 

That's not IT. Back to the drawing board .

22 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

• • • And that is why yours truly has the utmost respect of the delusion-forces of Narcissism and self-grandiosity, in whatever form they come. And Narcicissm and self-grandiosity is the final stop of the Nihilism/Solipsism-train, always. The separate-self is a structure/Gestalt built to cloud transcendence/Truth, and these tools are Mayas most seductive and most difficult to transcend devices to keep beings trapped. It takes ruthless self-honesty, self-awareness and integrity to get rid of these bugs.

It is no coincidence that a Solipsism done on Ego-level/relative-level  (not on Absolute Level, there we can talk about it) leads to Narcissism, and finally Nihilism, and then suffering. Ken Wilber writes a lot on the performative contradiction (especially of the green meme) in Boomeritis. It goes: Relativism, Nihilism, Narcissism (nobody tell me what to do!), self-grandiosity, suffering.

Good views and belief systems, true on a relative level, can lead one to Absolute Truth, Love and Transcendence. To a good life with minimum amount of suffering. Bad views just lead to more suffering and self-contraction.

Realization itself rests on a good and conflict-free belief- and value system on a relative level. Good views/value systems liberate (and lead to non-conceptual practice and transcendence), bad ones directly lead to the hell that Samsara can be.

All the best! 

Selling Water by the River

It's difficult for me to understand what you are saying . Please try to put it in a different way .

[Water by the River]

Hi Someonehere,

no criticizm in what I write below, just my view on things. Maybe it is useful.

2 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Its not a belief to drop all beliefs

It is a concept, a belief, and it is additionally it constitutes a value (of yours). Valueing dropping all beliefs higher than not dropping all beliefs, else one wouldn't intend to drop all beliefs. It is a form relativism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relativism

leading to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihilism

It is something dangerous to do, a 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_contradiction

To be able to spot this performative contradiction clearly is one of the key differences of green and yellow cognition. Going from relativistic cognition to integral cognition. At least to the inventors of Spiral Dynamics.

8 minutes ago, Someone here said:

No..a contradiction is a linguistic peculiarity..a statement that cannot be true as it asserts something is and isn’t.. which is simply meaningless.. and therefore can’t have a truth valu

In my experiences, suffering tends to happen when there are contradictions. Wanting something, but not getting it. Not wanting somehting but getting it. Or just two things/motivations/views/beliefs conflicting.

A separate self until Enlightenment is basically a self-contradiction walking on two feet, and suffering the contradiction and contraction.

17 minutes ago, Someone here said:

You still think that you have to do something in order to get  somehow to  something in somewhere. 

As long as one suffers, there is still some transcendence to do. Yes, that is my perspective and life-experience. I am talking about transcendence/practice here, not the usual "have to do something" projects of the separate-self.

17 minutes ago, Someone here said:

48 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

• • • And that is why yours truly has the utmost respect of the delusion-forces of Narcissism and self-grandiosity, in whatever form they come. And Narcicissm and self-grandiosity is the final stop of the Nihilism/Solipsism-train, always. The separate-self is a structure/Gestalt built to cloud transcendence/Truth, and these tools are Mayas most seductive and most difficult to transcend devices to keep beings trapped. It takes ruthless self-honesty, self-awareness and integrity to get rid of these bugs.

It is no coincidence that a Solipsism done on Ego-level/relative-level  (not on Absolute Level, there we can talk about it) leads to Narcissism, and finally Nihilism, and then suffering. Ken Wilber writes a lot on the performative contradiction (especially of the green meme) in Boomeritis. It goes: Relativism, Nihilism, Narcissism (nobody tell me what to do!), self-grandiosity, suffering.

Good views and belief systems, true on a relative level, can lead one to Absolute Truth, Love and Transcendence. To a good life with minimum amount of suffering. Bad views just lead to more suffering and self-contraction.

Realization itself rests on a good and conflict-free belief- and value system on a relative level. Good views/value systems liberate (and lead to non-conceptual practice and transcendence), bad ones directly lead to the hell that Samsara can be.

All the best! 

Selling Water by the River

It's difficult for me to understand what you are saying . Please try to put it in a different way .

Goods views/good beliefs/good way to life/practice to transcending leads to liberation and the end of suffering.

Bad views/bad beliefs keep the suffering ongoing. And Nihilism, Narcissism and self-grandiosity are dangerous, because they always lead to suffering.

Selling Water by the River

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

I no longer believe in any thing .no belief systems whatsoever.

Want to take a bet on that?

As long as you are / appear to be human, you are going to have beliefs. Why do you go to the supermarket? Because you believe that you can buy food there. Why do you eat the food? Because you believe that it will still your hunger. Why do you take a dump on the toilet afterwards? Because you believe that that's a better place for doing it than your living room, lol.

Without your beliefs, you wouldn't be able to survive.

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

I'm completely free from the shackles of the conceptual mind .

 

Good one.

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Bazooka Jesus

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Want to take a bet on that?

As long as you are / appear to be human, you are going to have beliefs. Why do you go to the supermarket? Because you believe that you can buy food there. Why do you eat the food? Because you believe that it will still your hunger. Why do you take a dump on the toilet afterwards? Because you believe that that's a better place for doing it than your living room, lol.

Without your beliefs, you wouldn't be able to survive.

You could live only if you have no belief at all.

if you are empty of rules..tenets.. beliefs then only you could understand life.

life is. it is complete.. requires no laws and rules to live. in a way you are alive whether you know it or not. your motor has started when you took first breath.. its up to you whether you go somewhere with it or you just burn fuel standing and worrying.

life is moving whether we have belief or not, sun goes on and on so the water in the river etc.

@Water by the River

Does not believing in something imply a belief in something else?

I suppose that you define “believe” as it is defined in religion:

I believe in something.. means I am 100% sure that it is true.

Not believing in something doesn’t mean that you are 100 % sure that it is not true. It just means that you are NOT 100% sure that it is true (sometimes this means that you are 100% sure that it is not.. sometimes that you just don’t know.. sometimes neither).

Let me give you an example: Do you believe that I have a brother?

You don’t (or do you?) . That’s because you don’t know if I have a brother. That doesn’t mean that you believe that I don’t.

Actually.. scientifically speaking..you never believe anything, since there is also a small chance that you are wrong. Of course mathematics are an exception -the only one.

@Bazooka Jesus So yes..we can probably get around beliefs: just don’t believe neither side. Each side has its chances of being right. Accept that and stop being absolutest. 

[Breakingthewall]

If you really have gotten rid of the conceptual mind, this is where the good stuff begins. the conceptual mind is a prison. They are structures that limit you, you have to be able to dissolve them at will. once you do that and your psyche is just amplitude, that's when you can begin to understand. but what you understand and how you understand it is hardly expressed in words. This does not mean that you are "enlightened", that to me is a fallacy. it is simply that you are free of barriers. the conceptual mind is a basic programming language to act in practice, not to understand reality. reality is only understood by being so. 

About "enlightenment", well, although you are free of the conceptual mind, your awareness only goes as deep as it can. is still limited. the total comprehension of reality is the total mystical experience. this is the revelation. to get there, you have to pave the way, but doing so does not guarantee that it will happen, it only promotes it

[Someone here]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

If you really have gotten rid of the conceptual mind, this is where the good stuff begins. the conceptual mind is a prison. They are structures that limit you, you have to be able to dissolve them at will. once you do that and your psyche is just amplitude, that's when you can begin to understand. but what you understand and how you understand it is hardly expressed in words. This does not mean that you are "enlightened", that to me is a fallacy. it is simply that you are free of barriers. the conceptual mind is a basic programming language to act in practice, not to understand reality. reality is only understood by being so. 

Well..you don’t even have to believe in ‘barriers ’. You can think it’s all a delusion.. a computer simulation..a trap for your soul… Lots of hypotheses . But these are All conceptual in nature .so by not believing in anything you become enlightened.  As @Nahm likes to say :"if all beliefs are dispelled..only truth is left ".

However as @Bazooka Jesus pointed out ..you can't completely get rid of all assumptions and beliefs and still functions as a human being.

It is true that if you accept the impressions of your senses (without saying they are a 100% reliable) then you have to make some assumptions about the nature of the thing that is causing them. Scientists (and even more scientist groupies) think they can dismiss all assumptions but they can’t. But to what extent this is ‘belief’ and what extent it is ‘knowledge’ is one ose questions that is a lot more complicated than it seems on the surface.

 

[Breakingthewall]

23 minutes ago, Someone here said:

As @Nahm likes to say :"if all beliefs are dispelled..only truth is left

Yeah, sure that the dogs are enlightened, because they have no beliefs, but the thing goes much deeper. As I said before, all the barriers can dissapear for a moment, you become infinite, and your understanding is infinite. you see with perfect clarity what reality is, what you are, the singularity that flows infinitely from the nothing and makes love to itself, and you see with total clarity what this experience is, all its layers, the superimposed energetic pattern that the experience human that is happening is. This is not just abandoning your beliefs, it is much more, it is what we call spirituality.

[Someone here]

1 minute ago, Breakingthewall said:

Yeah, sure that the dogs are enlightened, because they have no beliefs, but the thing goes much deeper. 

Strawman.  You need to have a "critical mass " of consciousness like that of a human or maybe an intelligent alien BESIDES dropping all beliefs. 

And with that said ..a peaceful monkey is more awake than an overthinking human. 

What do you think will be left if you stopped all beliefs?  A belief by its nature is false .

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the singularity that flows infinitely from the nothing and makes love to itself, and you see with total clarity what this experience is, all its layers, the superimposed energetic pattern that the experience human that is happening is.

That's utter nonsense my dude . You're completely lost in concepts and fantasy puffy buffy land.  What singularity that makes love to itself?   I would rather think the earth is resting on a endless chain of turtles. 

 

[Breakingthewall]

Just now, Someone here said:

That's utter nonsense my dude . You're completely lost in concepts and fantasy puffy buffy land.  What singularity that makes love to itself?   I would rather think the earth is resting on a endless chain of turtles. 

Man, You don't understand what I said, because it is a galaxies of your understanding. From my understanding, that is not so high, you are a kid of 6 years old.  If I where you, I'd try to be humble, if not you are going to spend all your life into sadness. But it's your life.

[Someone here]

@Breakingthewall OK. 

[Breakingthewall]

@Someone here 

You are absolutely dumb man, the concept come after the realization, and come just for make an explanation. Like red is an explanation of an experience. Red is not a concept, if you have seen the red. If you haven't seen the red, like your case, speak infinite hours about the "red" , that you don't know what is, is mental masturbation . Could you understand this basic idea? 

 

[Someone here]

@Breakingthewall speak respectfully. I have reported you .