Question for MEN: Is being with a woman worth the sacrifice in freedom.

[mr_engineer]

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Very interesting. 

I don't like to think that they had a commitment to the collective though. They just had a commitment to themselves that they would bring the best out of their potential and work they ass off on one thing.

And their work just happened to serve the collective well. Newton probably had no idea on how humanity would have made use of calculus. He was simply exploring math and written down whatever he saw. His commitment was to himself.

He was a virgin and probably for a good reason. 

All of these game-changing leaders must have, at some point, met with resistance from everyone in their immediate circle. They must have had everyone tell them that they're wrong, that what they're thinking about is impossible, that it can't work. Why? Because, based on the societal paradigm at the time, their ideas were on the edge of what was considered to be possible. And, to this day, attempting to do something that the consensus deems as impossible, is considered 'foolishness'. 

What does it take to overcome that? How do they justify fighting this battle to themselves? They do that, by looking at what the impact of their work on the collective could be. They see the potential of the world changing for the better, if they keep up the battle and win it. It takes the moral support of the wider collective for them to keep going and keep challenging their immediate circle's paradigm of what's possible. That's when the world gets changed. 

It takes a lot of seriousness as a person to make the contributions that they did. You don't just do that on a whim, by 'following your passion and oh look! I discovered gravity by asking a few questions about the apple falling on my head!!' If the church disagrees with you, if religious mythology disagrees with you, because 'angels can fly', you have a serious battle on your hands. Are you upto the task? If so, why? Why does this battle matter? You have to answer that question. Because actually fighting it has serious costs to you, personally. Why will you pay those costs? Because, potentially, the collective will benefit from your contributions. This is your service to the collective. 

And, by the way, when faced with this question, most people just sell out. They don't attempt the impossible thing, they stay in their comfort-zone, because 'attempting the impossible is plain foolish. Even if there's a real chance to make it possible, it's very risky, because that's what society says'. 

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Understanding reality and then, admiring reality is the only real purpose that I have. 

And women happen to be a part of this 'reality', right?! You don't have to let go of women to actualize this purpose. In fact, living this purpose will dramatically improve your relationships with women. 

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

For me freedom doesn't mean having zero limitations. That's is death.

Technically, that is true. Having said that, practically, in human life, wanting 'freedom' would mean, wanting to minimize your commitments. They can never be zero, but they can be minimized by conscious effort, if that is what you really value. 

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

What I mean by freedom to choose whatever limitations you can get.

Society is living under external limitations. 

Oh... I thought you meant that you wanted to minimize your limitations when you talked about commitment to a woman being antithetical to 'being free'...that you didn't want the limitations associated with commitment. 

By your definition of 'freedom', committing to a woman wouldn't necessarily take away your freedom, right?! If you're being authentic and your boundaries are clear to you?! And, by the way, you can't figure this out just being on your own, being 'free', you have to practically figure this out in the context of relationships with women. 

I'd suggest you figure out your definition of 'freedom' before choosing the path you want to go down. Because the right path for you to take will wholly depend on your definition of 'freedom'. In fact, changing the definition of freedom could take you in an entirely opposite direction. So, nail it down for yourself before making your decision. 

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Here is the crux:

 

You are a single man who is seriously into self actualization work and making serious progress.

You are sitting on a Chair and you are thinking into the future, and you come up with two parallel realities. One where you were committed (path A) and one where you did not(path B).

Which path is the one worth taking? 

which path has the potential to actualize you more? 

Here's what I'll say about this - the biggest key to success is the ability to say 'no' to commitments that you're not up for. Then, when you find something that you truly want to do, you are fully committed to it with no distractions. The point of saying 'no' is not for the heck of it, because 'freedom', there are rational reasons why you say 'no' to bad ideas. You objectively evaluate ideas and you execute only on the good ones. So, in order to be able to do that, you have to say 'no' to the bad ones. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by mr_engineer

[Tenebroso]

I would say your instincts are actually right counter to most responses in this thread but you would develop a healthier understanding if you actually had a couple of relationships. However, it's true for the vast majority of men the juice is not worth the squeeze. The anomaly in social dynamics that the industrial revolution produced fooled all men into thinking they should and would have a mate for just existing. There are healthy paths you can take while decentering romantic relationships and women. However you must be radically honest with yourself.

[integral]

1 hour ago, Tenebroso said:

However, it's true for the vast majority of men the juice is not worth the squeeze.

The issue is its not avoidable. The need for sex is unavoidable. The need for human connection is unavoidable. Believing you have a choice in the matter is naïve. Growing up involves embracing your nature, wisely living through your nature and not suppressing or running from it. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by integral

[Dauntment]

What do YOU want?

Lol, sound like you're outsourcing your Authority of preferences to us (o.o)

[Princess Arabia]

You are believing that relationships with women take away your freedom and now you're asking men if that belief system is worth having. You decide for yourself if it's worth it to you to have that belief, because, in case you didn't realize, that is just a belief, and there's something within you that's benefitting from that belief, or you wouldn't hold on to it. The mind is only going to accept the answers that align with that belief and regurgitate out the rest. Ironically, you're the one enslaving yourself, and sacrificing your own freedom by choosing that be-LIE-f system which doesn't fit into how you would like your relationships with women to be. So now, your mind is conflicted and is playing tug of war with itself from what it's been programmed with and a decision it consciously wants to make. 

[Roy]

There is a dangerous lie that I see repeated over and over that I find relevant to this discussion.

The lie of You Can Have It All!

This is simply not the case. Unless you are some sort of combination of incredibly lucky, wealthy, top genetics, environment, hard-working, great opportunities, etc.

Most of life is an incredible struggle where you are going to have to sacrifice, make bold choices, and compromise to accomplish what you want. There is a limited amount of resources and time you have to manage that are fluctuating constantly as well.

The uncomfortable truth is that most people (including the ones reading this) are not particularly remarkable and won't be able to create the life where you are excelling (by conventional societal standards) in all possible domains. By definition only a small percentage of people end up doing this. It doesn't mean it's not worth striving for, but a healthy dose of realism is important.

As a man you are really going to have to discover and clearly define your ambitions and what you want, and set your principles around defending and serving those ambitions, because the female narrative and goal in life for most women is to find a man to utilize his resources and protection to make a family with.

It all depends on what you want to do and how much freedom you need to accomplish it. You have to find a balance for yourself what freedoms you are willing to sacrifice in exchange for companionship and a potential family.

Don't accept the "You Can Have It All!" bullshit that people like to blow smoke with. Be very careful and particular about what you want to do with your finite life, and don't apologize for it.

[Bobby_2021]

20 hours ago, Spiral said:

I would get lonely when I get old if don’t have a girlfriend. I don’t particularly enjoy hookups either. 

This just never happens to me. I am never ever lonely. I enjoy contemplating about life too much. Not having to deal with people and their bullshit while having all the benefits from society is an underrated privilege. With that said I do not want to be a complete loner. I do enjoy being with classy people as well. Just that this loneliness issue never occurred to me.

 

9 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

And women happen to be a part of this 'reality', right?! You don't have to let go of women to actualize this purpose. In fact, living this purpose will dramatically improve your relationships with women. 

I suppose that is not a remote possibility.

9 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

Oh... I thought you meant that you wanted to minimize your limitations when you talked about commitment to a woman being antithetical to 'being free'...that you didn't want the limitations associated with commitment. 

Yes that is what I meant. All limitations are not the same. Relationships can be a world of limitations within itself. In a way it is a bigger limitation than building rockets for example.  You can choose to not build rockets and do something else if you want.

That is not the same with committed relationships though, especially if you have children.   Moreover building rockets or some other wild limitations like that could perhaps grow you further than a relationship.

Notice that path B still allows short term relationships with women. 

My question is if a committed relationship is really worth it in its ability to actualize you as a man. A lot of men I see are not actualizing in relationships beyond a point. And the biggest geniuses are not getting into relationships as well. 

I haven't reached any conclusion yet. Just thinking about it.  

[Princess Arabia]

2 hours ago, Roy said:

There is a dangerous lie that I see repeated over and over that I find relevant to this discussion.

The lie of You Can Have It All!

This is simply not the case. Unless you are some sort of combination of incredibly lucky, wealthy, top genetics, environment, hard-working, great opportunities, etc.

Most of life is an incredible struggle where you are going to have to sacrifice, make bold choices, and compromise to accomplish what you want. There is a limited amount of resources and time you have to manage that are fluctuating constantly as well.

The uncomfortable truth is that most people (including the ones reading this) are not particularly remarkable and won't be able to create the life where you are excelling (by conventional societal standards) in all possible domains. By definition only a small percentage of people end up doing this. It doesn't mean it's not worth striving for, but a healthy dose of realism is important.

As a man you are really going to have to discover and clearly define your ambitions and what you want, and set your principles around defending and serving those ambitions, because the female narrative and goal in life for most women is to find a man to utilize his resources and protection to make a family with.

It all depends on what you want to do and how much freedom you need to accomplish it. You have to find a balance for yourself what freedoms you are willing to sacrifice in exchange for companionship and a potential family.

Don't accept the "You Can Have It All!" bullshit that people like to blow smoke with. Be very careful and particular about what you want to do with your finite life, and don't apologize for it.

Most of what you're saying is false anyway, so might as well believe an empowering lie. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Princess Arabia

[mr_engineer]

4 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Yes that is what I meant. All limitations are not the same. Relationships can be a world of limitations within itself. In a way it is a bigger limitation than building rockets for example.  You can choose to not build rockets and do something else if you want.

That is not the same with committed relationships though, especially if you have children.   Moreover building rockets or some other wild limitations like that could perhaps grow you further than a relationship.

Notice that path B still allows short term relationships with women. 

My question is if a committed relationship is really worth it in its ability to actualize you as a man. A lot of men I see are not actualizing in relationships beyond a point. And the biggest geniuses are not getting into relationships as well. 

I haven't reached any conclusion yet. Just thinking about it.  

Minimizing your limitations is very different from choosing your limitations. These are mutually exclusive conceptualizations of 'freedom'. Which one is it for you? 

I think that relationships have immense power to grow you, if you so choose. The choice to grow is yours. They do, in fact, provide great opportunities for growth and self-actualization. It's not even necessarily that the women themselves will do something to help you grow, (although, if they do, that would be ideal) it's that the arrangement in which you live with someone will show you how other people perceive you in a big way. 

And, as far as parenting goes, it is probably the biggest test for you as an adult human. It absolutely does have the ability to help you self-actualize, it can grow you a lot. 

[integral]

@Bobby_2021 Are you in your 20s? In your 20s your built so achieve not settle down and have kids, Connection with others is still relatively weak or disconnected. its in your 30s that you exhausted the achiever stage and move along to another reality.

Guys need to stop believing they understand there developmental trajectory in there teens and 20s. Things have not stabilized yet and they likely never will. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by integral

[StarStruck]

To be totally free is to not be free

[Michael569]

I'm 33 and in 13th year of relationship so that probably qualifies for the question. 

Let me start by asking, what does "freedom" constitute for you at the moment? What does it involve and what doesn't it involve? 

[universe]

On 04/07/2023 at 2:54 PM, Bobby_2021 said:

@universe Lets say about pursuing consciousness, you can't go all in when a lot of your energy is expended in managing the relationship.

You could do things as you wish with no one to answer to, but once a woman comes in the picture, now she is going to need explanations of what you are doing or she may disagree with you. It brings all this uncertainty which I see as hindering your freedom while before you didn't have anyone to answer to.

Life was completely an open game before women. Heck you can even choose to have endless sex when you are not in a committed relationship. I want to know what do you lose by not being in a relationship.

What is the worth of the sacrifice.

You do not lose anything. As you are already complete as you are.

Thinking that you can't achieve anything while in a relationship is a limiting belief. There are millions of examples that show married men who have done it.

Things are not black and white like this. You can drink a coke and still win the olympics.

Have you tried it? Otherwise this is all mental masturbation.

 

I feel like your view on relationships leans towards restriction and dependence.

You are the creator of your relationships.
You can decide how much time you spend together.
You can decide how much you want to depend on each other.
You can decide if you have to explain yourself to each other.

[Consept]

I think a lot of the time we see commitments as an intrusion on our freedom but this only occurs if you fail to keep your integrity, as a man in this case. A lot of men are scared that if a woman comes into the picture they can no longer 'be themselves' but this is to do more with not being able to hold your own boundaries. You can still do what you want even if you have a partner, there will be some compromise of course but that's up to you and your partner in terms of what works. 

The main issue guys are worried about is not being able to see other women. But seeing other women is not necessarily freedom, for one it takes a lot of time to be consistently meeting new women, it would actually give you more time to contemplate and do whatever if you had an understanding partner, rather than have to go on dates with new women every week. I think most guys would have an urge to have a woman or women in their lives romantically, if you don't have this urge then yeah don't have a partner, be celibate. If you do have this urge and you want to achieve a lot in life, then having a partner (a good one) makes more sense than being single. 

Just a quick example but young football players (soccer) who are likely to be big stars, are always encouraged by their football clubs to settle down, this is because if they do they can focus 100% on being the best they can be and have a focus that's bigger than just buying the latest supercar or hooking up with girls. Freedom for them would most likely ruin their careers. 

[Bobby_2021]

On 5/7/2023 at 7:20 AM, Princess Arabia said:

You are believing that relationships with women take away your freedom and now you're asking men if that belief system is worth having. You decide for yourself if it's worth it to you to have that belief, because, in case you didn't realize, that is just a belief, and there's something within you that's benefitting from that belief, or you wouldn't hold on to it. The mind is only going to accept the answers that align with that belief and regurgitate out the rest. Ironically, you're the one enslaving yourself, and sacrificing your own freedom by choosing that be-LIE-f system which doesn't fit into how you would like your relationships with women to be. So now, your mind is conflicted and is playing tug of war with itself from what it's been programmed with and a decision it consciously wants to make. 

I am merely questioning if a relationship is worth having. After the enquiry I can opt for the possibility or not.

The straw man you are making is labelling it as a "belief". NO. This is a serious inquiry. I am open to whatever possibility that can give me maximum self actualization. When I see the most brilliant men in history and even during current time have broken long term relationship that should be discussed.

Why do ambition men have difficulty with long term relationships? Worth asking.

On 5/7/2023 at 9:41 AM, Roy said:

There is a dangerous lie that I see repeated over and over that I find relevant to this discussion.

The lie of You Can Have It All!

This is simply not the case. Unless you are some sort of combination of incredibly lucky, wealthy, top genetics, environment, hard-working, great opportunities, etc.

Most of life is an incredible struggle where you are going to have to sacrifice, make bold choices, and compromise to accomplish what you want. There is a limited amount of resources and time you have to manage that are fluctuating constantly as well.

The uncomfortable truth is that most people (including the ones reading this) are not particularly remarkable and won't be able to create the life where you are excelling (by conventional societal standards) in all possible domains. By definition only a small percentage of people end up doing this. It doesn't mean it's not worth striving for, but a healthy dose of realism is important.

As a man you are really going to have to discover and clearly define your ambitions and what you want, and set your principles around defending and serving those ambitions, because the female narrative and goal in life for most women is to find a man to utilize his resources and protection to make a family with.

It all depends on what you want to do and how much freedom you need to accomplish it. You have to find a balance for yourself what freedoms you are willing to sacrifice in exchange for companionship and a potential family.

Don't accept the "You Can Have It All!" bullshit that people like to blow smoke with. Be very careful and particular about what you want to do with your finite life, and don't apologize for it.

Wholly agree with this. Life is all about tradeoffs and sacrifices. I want to know to what extend will a relationship will restrain a man and what kind of relationship will give max self actualization.

On 5/7/2023 at 11:27 AM, Princess Arabia said:

Most of what you're saying is false anyway, so might as well believe an empowering lie. 

Why do you want to believe in lies?

 

[Bobby_2021]

22 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

Minimizing your limitations is very different from choosing your limitations. These are mutually exclusive conceptualizations of 'freedom'. Which one is it for you? 

To put it bluntly, I do not want women putting any limitations on me that may slow down my ambitions in any way. I want to choose my own limitations and not let women let me choose the limitations I can have for me.

20 hours ago, integral said:

@Bobby_2021 Are you in your 20s? In your 20s your built so achieve not settle down and have kids, Connection with others is still relatively weak or disconnected. its in your 30s that you exhausted the achiever stage and move along to another reality.

Guys need to stop believing they understand there developmental trajectory in there teens and 20s. Things have not stabilized yet and they likely never will. 

Yeah.

This is not asking from an achiever stage though. Material accomplishments are not my end goal although they do consume a lot of my time and energy.

Recently I have grown intolerant of dealing with people in real life. There is too much dogma and baggage that people hold. I do not talk to anyone for an extended period of time. People are always involved in their silly games and it disgusts me. That is why I am more cognizant of who gets to share my intellect with. I cannot allow anyone to have authority over my intellectual authority.

 

19 hours ago, Michael569 said:

I'm 33 and in 13th year of relationship so that probably qualifies for the question. 

Let me start by asking, what does "freedom" constitute for you at the moment? What does it involve and what doesn't it involve? 

I have alluded to it somewhat abstractly above. For the sake of simplicity, lets say that you have a huge awakening experience and needs to go to some forest and meditate for a month straight. You are super into consciousness work. 

Now, if you are not in a serious long term relationship, you do not need to ask anyone. You can simply go and do whatever you want. But when you are in  a relationship, the woman may ask questions and you may not be explain to her in a way that she understands. 
Notice that a good relationship takes work to maintain it on its own. 

Will you be able to strategically allocate your resources (time and energy)into managing relationship and consciousness work?

What if the woman thinks that you are going insane?

What if she doesn't appreciate what you are doing because she does not understand the significance of this work?What if she has needs which should be taken care of at a time when you go for work?
What if these sow tiny seeds of resentment and make your life miserable and suffering induced?

There could be a lot of issues that will hinder your work. Now, having kids takes this to a whole new level. All of that is just new things to manage.

What if you simple cut out all that and double down on your own work to dedicate the last remaining time and energy to build something that the world has never seen before?

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

In The Way of the Superior Man book it says that men look for freedom and women look for love but the path of freedom and the path of love both end up at the same place 

It would be beautiful if it ends like this.

1 hour ago, Twentyfirst said:

For me a girl would have to be really special to earn a spot in my freedom journey and I wouldn't give up the freedom for her but just allow her to tag along 

What would that kind of girl look like?

[Leo Gura]

There isn't one answer. It's going to depend on your personality type.

For me being alone tends to be better long-term. No one can make me as happy as myself. This is how serious philosophers and mystics tend to be. But this will not suit most people.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Bobby_2021]

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There isn't one answer. It's going to depend on your personality type.

For me being alone tends to be better long-term. No one can make me as happy as myself. This is how serious philosopher and mystics tend to be. But this will not suit most people.

@Leo Gura  Well, lets say that you are comfortable not being in a long term relationship(LTR). 

Now imagine for the sake of it that you did get into a relationship. 

How would you max out that relationship for maximum self actualization. For the girl, you can imagine the best case scenario.

Can you even give a crude view of how that would look like?

[mr_engineer]

53 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

To put it bluntly, I do not want women putting any limitations on me that may slow down my ambitions in any way. I want to choose my own limitations and not let women let me choose the limitations I can have for me.

Okay. Now I get it. I've faced this issue myself. 

You need to work on your money-dynamic. A 'money-dynamic' is the way money is handled in your relationships. And the overall consensus-mindset around money. It's the 'inner-game' relative to money, but applied to the collective. 

For this, the first thing you do is you self-actualize professionally by building the right knowledge and skills, such that you can survive in the world on your own. Then, you figure out what's the most important to you. Is it money? Or relationships? Or health? Let's say it's relationships above money.

Then, you need to figure out a masculine/feminine growth-dynamic with the women you date, based on who you are as a man and what you want from them in terms of help with your growth. For this, you need to date women who have a certain level of smartness, you can't date dumb women. And, you need to date women who hold a compatible relationship-vision with you. This will weed out all of the 'feminists' who want to be 'independent'. They have brains, they're just incompatible because there won't be any team-dynamic with them, they will be too 'independent'. You won't get a role in their lives. 

Date with the intention of making this masculine/feminine dynamic click. Once you figure all of that out, you lock in your relationship-vision and you 'get ready' for this relationship. And you orient all of your life in that direction. This will make it so your own life doesn't go in a direction where you're just an 'independent individual' floating around in the modern world, you will have time and space in your life for other people. And, when you do that, they won't hold you back for personal reasons. And, as far as competence-reasons go, you vet out those women. 

HTH! 

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

How would you max out that relationship for maximum self actualization.

I would not try to "max it out", I would just enjoy the relationship as normal folk do.

If you are looking for the deepest relationship possible, see my video: How To Practice Love. You would do what's in that video.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Leo Gura