Question for MEN: Is being with a woman worth the sacrifice in freedom.

[Bobby_2021]

Quote

As a man there is nothing a woman can offer you that pure freedom cannot, given that you put in the efforts to build your life well. The freedom is so enticing. Realize this truth.

I took it from one of my personal notes as I was contemplating the future of my life with regard to relationship. 

Being in a relationship is a huge sacrifice. For men it is the sacrifice of their freedom. My question is if being with any women at all is enough to justify the sacrifice in freedom. With freedom men who put in work to build themselves are absolute forces of nature. I feel so powerful in this state.  I also feel like a lot of men feel like they miss this unbounded freedom they used to have after getting in marriage, especially after a decade or so after the initial excitement have dulled out.

What is the cost-opportunity analysis of freedom and relationship with women? Is either one worth more. I want the opinion of older men who have experienced both worlds here.

 

[Ulax]

@Bobby_2021 Hey dude,

I have an idea of something that you might find value on contemplating on.

The idea, as described in the above video, is to practice making finer and varied distinctions.

Here I see you as asking the question of whether being in a relationship with a woman is worth the sacrifice for men. However, I would argue that if you made more distinctions in the categories of 'men', 'women' , and 'relationship' you would get a more nuanced, and informative view.

What are the relevant subcategories of men?

What are relevant subcategories of women?

What are the relevant subcategories of relationship?

For example, I would argue that if a very traumatized man, and very traumatized woman get together in a long distance relationship that is going to lead to a very different relationship than if a psychological healthy and mature couple get married and live together. Therefore, if I were to say that it isn't or is worth the sacrifice for a man to be in a relationship with a women, I'd argue that it would depend on the following factors. The type of man, the type of woman, and the type of relationship.

----------------------

In regards to an important distinction I'd highlight, I'd highlight the distinction of 'emotional maturity v emotional immaturity' as important. I think, loosely, that the degree to which a man is emotionally mature is the degree to which a relationship is worth the sacrifices. Firstly, because there will likely be less costs, i.e. can manage their emotions healthily and thus create less unhealthy conflict. Secondly, the man will be less needy, i.e. less likely to be unconsciously engaging in fulfilling unmet needs like a sense of approval. Accordingly, I would argue the man would consequently be much more natural, and much more relaxed and satisfied in the relationship. Therefore, the relationship could be based upon two fulfilled people sharing in the beauty of each other's company. In contrast to a neurotic one, where the couple are each on edge, and stressed. And are therefore chronically and unconsciously using the relationship to chronically meet unfulfilled needs. Hence, the relationship entailing much burden for both parties.

[Ajax]

If you have to ask, it is probably not for you.

With any job you sacrifice some freedom.

I see it as an "all in or not at all" kind of deal.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Ajax

[Spiral]

I would get lonely when I get old if don’t have a girlfriend. I don’t particularly enjoy hookups either. 

[Salvijus]

Your mind is in communion with every other mind all the time. And we are in a relationship with trees, atmosphere, air, nature, people with the entire cosmos cosmos baducly and ceaselessly so. There's not a moment in your life when you're not in relationship with entire cosmos. Relating is fundamental to existence.

Freedom means no relationship determines how you are. If you can be the presence of love in any kind of relationship under all circumstances, that's freedom. Then you can have milions of girlfriends and boyfriends and alienfriends and it will not take away your freedom. Instead it will touch and bless others and will uplift them into the Light of god evermore brilliantly. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Salvijus

[mr_engineer]

If being single is helping you be freer, more power to you. I don't see why you should commit to a woman, in that case. A lot of great people in history have been celibate and they never got married. So, if you say that it's possible to live a functional and productive life without a woman, I won't disagree. Having said that, were these great people 'free'? Or did they have huge commitments to the collective? Did their power come from their 'freedom'? 

Do you know what you want to do with your freedom? Are you going to just sleep around and chase material pleasure? Or, are you going to put in the work to figure out who you are? Chances are that mental-health stuff may come up when you do that. And it may totally shatter your existing paradigms. 

The end-goal of this process is to find your Life-Purpose. That's not a free life either, by the way. It's a very committed life. It is a deep commitment to a certain vision you have for the world. But, chances are that you will feel more powerful living that life than being free and minimizing your commitments. This is why you figure out who you are when you're free. Because freedom is a privilege that most people don't have. It's mostly temporary. Do you know what you will do with your life when you stop being free? Will your power go away when that happens? 

Here's the reality - most unconscious people don't know what they can contribute to society. They don't know their potential. So, the default state is to have a family, have children and contribute to the survival of humanity like that. This is what religion teaches most people. If you find a better, more authentic way to do this, more power to you. If you're experiencing the power inherent in the freedom of choice, you probably will find this way. 

[universe]

Can you be more precise. What kind of sacrifice in freedom are you talking about?

[Bobby_2021]

@Ulax I have already said the kind of men I am referring to. It's those men who put in efforts to build their lives to the maximum potential, individually. 

With women, it could literally be any women. Take the best case you want to. I want to see if a woman can really add to his life, especially for best case woman or even an average case for example.

Because you cannot really judge women before you live with them and commit to them. So that's kind of ambiguous on purpose.

What kind of woman will give you the maximum freedom as a man? 

What kind of woman will add more than freedom to your life?

What kind of tangible things do woman add to your life? 

These are the things that are up for analysis. 

 

[Bobby_2021]

@universe Lets say about pursuing consciousness, you can't go all in when a lot of your energy is expended in managing the relationship.

You could do things as you wish with no one to answer to, but once a woman comes in the picture, now she is going to need explanations of what you are doing or she may disagree with you. It brings all this uncertainty which I see as hindering your freedom while before you didn't have anyone to answer to.

Life was completely an open game before women. Heck you can even choose to have endless sex when you are not in a committed relationship. I want to know what do you lose by not being in a relationship.

What is the worth of the sacrifice.

6 hours ago, Ajax said:

If you have to ask, it is probably not for you.

With any job you sacrifice some freedom.

I see it as an "all in or not at all" kind of deal.

I agree with this. If I have to ask, then it's probably not for me. 

But what if you were going to invent calculus or some world changing discovery and the relationship is getting in the way.

This sacrifice is worth for most normies since they are immature and getting in a relationship might be a net gain for them. They can develop maturity and wisdom from the relationship. But what if I already have all that?

Will I get anything truly amazing and astounding from a relationship from a woman?

What kind of woman would I need?

What kind of work do I need to make it worth the sacrifice?

Lets say you are facing a huge creative endeavours where you cannot afford to dilute your energy by expending it on a relationship? 

[Bobby_2021]

3 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

If being single is helping you be freer, more power to you. I don't see why you should commit to a woman, in that case. A lot of great people in history have been celibate and they never got married. So, if you say that it's possible to live a functional and productive life without a woman, I won't disagree. Having said that, were these great people 'free'? Or did they have huge commitments to the collective? Did their power come from their 'freedom'? 

Very interesting. 

I don't like to think that they had a commitment to the collective though. They just had a commitment to themselves that they would bring the best out of their potential and work they ass off on one thing.

And their work just happened to serve the collective well. Newton probably had no idea on how humanity would have made use of calculus. He was simply exploring math and written down whatever he saw. His commitment was to himself.

He was a virgin and probably for a good reason. 

3 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

The end-goal of this process is to find your Life-Purpose. That's not a free life either, by the way. It's a very committed life. It is a deep commitment to a certain vision you have for the world.

Understanding reality and then, admiring reality is the only real purpose that I have. 

3 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

But, chances are that you will feel more powerful living that life than being free and minimizing your commitments

For me freedom doesn't mean having zero limitations. That's is death.

What I mean by freedom to choose whatever limitations you can get.

Society is living under external limitations. 

3 hours ago, mr_engineer said:

Here's the reality - most unconscious people don't know what they can contribute to society. They don't know their potential. So, the default state is to have a family, have children and contribute to the survival of humanity like that. This is what religion teaches most people. If you find a better, more authentic way to do this, more power to you. If you're experiencing the power inherent in the freedom of choice, you probably will find this way. 

That's a terrible way to live.

 

 

Here is the crux:

 

You are a single man who is seriously into self actualization work and making serious progress.

You are sitting on a Chair and you are thinking into the future, and you come up with two parallel realities. One where you were committed (path A) and one where you did not(path B).

Which path is the one worth taking? 

which path has the potential to actualize you more? 

 

[Ajax]

@Bobby_2021 

At this moment.. no.  You still have unfinished business.

If you conquered enough of your piece of the world and start feeling lonely, or desire to share your life, then it might be time to start planning on having a relationship.

Of course... Don't be stupid and choose the wrong mate, or fuck it up. Which I sense is the part you are dealing with. These difficulties can be handled skillfully, but this is a rather extensive subject.

[Bobby_2021]

Just now, Bobby_2021 said:

You are a single man who is seriously into self actualization work and making serious progress.

You are sitting on a Chair and you are thinking into the future, and you come up with two parallel realities. One where you were committed (path A) and one where you did not(path B).

Which path is the one worth taking? 

which path has the potential to actualize you more? 

Addressing a few objections.

1. "What if the woman is bad? What kind of woman are you talking about?"

That's the point. Relationships are uncertainty. It depends upon the woman. Take into account the uncertainty of having the right Partner, whatever your definition of being right could be.

2. What is freedom?

Freedom to pursue whatever you want without being answerable to anyone. Literally being able to purse whatever self actualization goal. I am not talking about chasing mindless material goals. That is not of too much interest to me. I mean freedom in the most objective and reasonable meaning of the word. Not some retarded libertarian fantasy. 

 

[Recursoinominado]

Freedom as supreme value is a teenage thing.

A REAL partnership can led to extreme growth.

 

[Bobby_2021]

6 minutes ago, Ajax said:

@Bobby_2021 

At this moment.. no.  You still have unfinished business.

If you conquered enough of your piece of the world and start feeling lonely, or desire to share your life, then it might be time to start planning on having a relationship.

Of course... Don't be stupid and choose the wrong mate, or fuck it up. Which I sense is the part you are dealing with. These difficulties can be handled skillfully, but this is a rather extensive subject.

Definitely not. I want to know if it's worth in the future so that I can allocate energy to find a good one. I have a couple of options. I think I will put it on hold at the moment. My creative aspirations are the most important. 

I do have anxiety of finding a long term mate. It's such a pain in the ass. 

But I will never ever feel lonely. I am too comfortable with myself now. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Bobby_2021

[Bobby_2021]

2 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Freedom as supreme value is a teenage thing.

A REAL partnership can led to extreme growth.

I am not talking about the teenage version you hear from libertarians.

There is no guarantee that a partner will grow in the same pace as you. People are not simple machines. They have to grow and evolve in their own time. A relationship can grow you, but it will rather be slow and bumpy. Go alone and you will go blazing fast. 

[Ajax]

15 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Definitely not. I want to know if it's worth in the future so that I can allocate energy to find a good one.

I was married for 15 years and it was amazing, I wouldn't trade it for anything in the world. There really are some secrets for having a great relationship.

However, I felt the need to pursue Truth and knew my wife could not handle the transition, so I ended it.

There is a piece of Truth. " To change your life, change your mind." Not many people have this basic ability, but I do. I don't regret it even a little bit. We remain very close friends to this day and work well together in raising our daughter.

That is my story. Increase your ability to find pieces of truth, be able to find the secrets of a relationship and be confident in them and things will turn out just right.

I for one am happy how things turned out in my life.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Ajax

[Recursoinominado]

21 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I am not talking about the teenage version you hear from libertarians.

No need to be, the search for freedom above else is a childish view of life.

22 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

There is no guarantee that a partner will grow in the same pace as you.

There are no guarantees in life, bro.

Be smart and choose well.

25 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

A relationship can grow you, but it will rather be slow and bumpy. Go alone and you will go blazing fast. 

Not everything is about speed.

You can go further and deeper with a good supporting partner.

[Bobby_2021]

@Recursoinominado I am not placing freedom above all else. I am placing freedom as a basic requirement for life. It is only fair that everyone has true freedom to do whatever they want we see real progress in culture.

I can be in complete control of myself. I can put in constant amounts of work and get steady results. Doing it with a partner is only going to needlessly complicate things. To each their own.

[Recursoinominado]

45 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I am placing freedom as a basic requirement for life.

Dude, you still have some freedom in a relationship, wtf are you saying.

46 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

It is only fair that everyone has true freedom to do whatever they want we see real progress in culture.

People in relationships has been progressing culture for thousands of years.

47 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

I can be in complete control of myself. I can put in constant amounts of work and get steady results.

Seriously doubt that.

48 minutes ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Doing it with a partner is only going to needlessly complicate things.

Again, very much depends on the partner you choose.

Your view on relationships is very limited.

 

[mr_engineer]

5 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Very interesting. 

I don't like to think that they had a commitment to the collective though. They just had a commitment to themselves that they would bring the best out of their potential and work they ass off on one thing.

And their work just happened to serve the collective well. Newton probably had no idea on how humanity would have made use of calculus. He was simply exploring math and written down whatever he saw. His commitment was to himself.

He was a virgin and probably for a good reason. 

All of these game-changing leaders must have, at some point, met with resistance from everyone in their immediate circle. They must have had everyone tell them that they're wrong, that what they're thinking about is impossible, that it can't work. Why? Because, based on the societal paradigm at the time, their ideas were on the edge of what was considered to be possible. And, to this day, attempting to do something that the consensus deems as impossible, is considered 'foolishness'. 

What does it take to overcome that? How do they justify fighting this battle to themselves? They do that, by looking at what the impact of their work on the collective could be. They see the potential of the world changing for the better, if they keep up the battle and win it. It takes the moral support of the wider collective for them to keep going and keep challenging their immediate circle's paradigm of what's possible. That's when the world gets changed. 

It takes a lot of seriousness as a person to make the contributions that they did. You don't just do that on a whim, by 'following your passion and oh look! I discovered gravity by asking a few questions about the apple falling on my head!!' If the church disagrees with you, if religious mythology disagrees with you, because 'angels can fly', you have a serious battle on your hands. Are you upto the task? If so, why? Why does this battle matter? You have to answer that question. Because actually fighting it has serious costs to you, personally. Why will you pay those costs? Because, potentially, the collective will benefit from your contributions. This is your service to the collective. 

And, by the way, when faced with this question, most people just sell out. They don't attempt the impossible thing, they stay in their comfort-zone, because 'attempting the impossible is plain foolish. Even if there's a real chance to make it possible, it's very risky, because that's what society says'. 

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Understanding reality and then, admiring reality is the only real purpose that I have. 

And women happen to be a part of this 'reality', right?! You don't have to let go of women to actualize this purpose. In fact, living this purpose will dramatically improve your relationships with women. 

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

For me freedom doesn't mean having zero limitations. That's is death.

Technically, that is true. Having said that, practically, in human life, wanting 'freedom' would mean, wanting to minimize your commitments. They can never be zero, but they can be minimized by conscious effort, if that is what you really value. 

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

What I mean by freedom to choose whatever limitations you can get.

Society is living under external limitations. 

Oh... I thought you meant that you wanted to minimize your limitations when you talked about commitment to a woman being antithetical to 'being free'...that you didn't want the limitations associated with commitment. 

By your definition of 'freedom', committing to a woman wouldn't necessarily take away your freedom, right?! If you're being authentic and your boundaries are clear to you?! And, by the way, you can't figure this out just being on your own, being 'free', you have to practically figure this out in the context of relationships with women. 

I'd suggest you figure out your definition of 'freedom' before choosing the path you want to go down. Because the right path for you to take will wholly depend on your definition of 'freedom'. 

6 hours ago, Bobby_2021 said:

Here is the crux:

 

You are a single man who is seriously into self actualization work and making serious progress.

You are sitting on a Chair and you are thinking into the future, and you come up with two parallel realities. One where you were committed (path A) and one where you did not(path B).

Which path is the one worth taking? 

which path has the potential to actualize you more? 

Here's what I'll say about this - the biggest key to success is the ability to say 'no' to commitments that you're not up for. Then, when you find something that you truly want to do, you are fully committed to it. The point of saying 'no' is not for the heck of it, because 'freedom', there are rational reasons why you say 'no' to bad ideas. You objectively evaluate ideas and you execute only on the good ones. So, in order to be able to do that, you have to say 'no' to the bad ones.