TMI VS MCTB2?

[3Observant6Observer9]

Can’t decide between Ingram’s or Culadasa‘s book. If anyone has any experience with both of them, how do these two approaches differ from each other? Which one do you prefer and why?

Edited June 27, 2023 by 3Observant6Observer9

[The0Self]

TMI is more down to earth and straightforward and detailed and comprehensive as far as actual techniques i.e. the actual stuff you’re supposed to do. MCTB2 is broader but far more open-ended, albeit it more extensively describes what to expect (imo something that should be avoided in excess). So I’d go with TMI 100%.

[3Observant6Observer9]

@The0Self I see.. I’d probably go with TMI as well. I have come across different perspectives regarding their differences and according to Ingram, Culadasa's approach in TMI is to protect students from discomfort by taking a longer route, working solely to build your concentration before Vipassana is implemented, while Ingram believes that a little discomfort can be beneficial and is less concerned about avoiding all Dark Night experiences. Even Ingram admitted his approach tends to lead to chaos and pain and TMI tends to lead to happiness and ease.

 

 

 

[The0Self]

9 hours ago, 3Observant6Observer9 said:

@The0Self I see.. I’d probably go with TMI as well. I have come across different perspectives regarding their differences and according to Ingram, Culadasa's approach in TMI is to protect students from discomfort by taking a longer route, working solely to build your concentration before Vipassana is implemented, while Ingram believes that a little discomfort can be beneficial and is less concerned about avoiding all Dark Night experiences. Even Ingram admitted his approach tends to lead to chaos and pain and TMI tends to lead to happiness and ease.

 

 

 

Yes, that's what Ingram says. It should be noted that Culadasa adamantly disagreed, steadfastly, on this point, and politely left it at that. Your last sentence above is perhaps true, but TMI past early stage 8 is pretty much the wilderness for anyone because it can get rather crazy -- it can involve pretty much everything that Ingram talks about... But Culadasa aptly does not script the experience, he just says the places you go will be unimaginable and thus it's pointless to try to describe how it'll be because it's impossible.

TMI doesn't take longer. Not whatsoever. At least not as a rule. Where this disagreement comes from is perhaps Ingram's recommendation to sit for 10+ hours a day, whereas Culadasa says 2 hours can be sufficient. But the idea that this means TMI must take longer is a total misunderstanding, because it doesn't take into account that you can just do TMI for 10+ hours a day as well... in fact Culadasa even heavily implies that this would be faster.

Also it perhaps comes from thinking that TMI is pure samatha. It's samatha-vipassana. Ingram recommends doing samatha and vipassana separately for the most part, whereas Culadasa doesn't as much. In the end they have to combine anyway, even in Ingram's model.

The 1. intensity, 2. frequency, and 3. volume, of the training are going to be what dictates how long it takes for the requisite neurological changes to take place. So train diligently and consistently if you want to succeed, no matter the method.

Past early stage 8 TMI you'll want to broaden your horizons past TMI anyway though (which is even implied in TMI).

Edited June 28, 2023 by The0Self

[Michal__]

All you need is the kasina section from mctb2...

You will get all the benefits of Vipassana and Samatha. And if you take it to a high enough level all you'll have to worry about is integration of ultra strong stages and slowing down once in a while so you remain relatively stable.

[3Observant6Observer9]

@The0Self I read a blog post about balancing the two approaches. essentially it states that TMI focuses on adjusting attention and awareness to minimize distractions, while MCTB emphasizes recognizing the flavors of distractions objectively. TMI explores the nature of attention/awareness, while MCTB delves into the nature of distraction. Both approaches highlight the importance of objectifying distractions and adjusting attention/awareness.

To find a balance between the two, one suggestion is to maintain attention on the sensations of breathing and establish a sense of calm. When distractions arise, apply a labeling technique by noting an aspect of the distraction, such as body sensations, urges, emotions, or thought patterns. The goal is to develop clearer insight into the nature of distractions. 

So by doing this It adds in vipassana or insight practice to your breath meditation which is mostly a samatha or calming practice. By noting and labeling distractions that arise, such as frustration, confusion, depression, worry, and other emotions, they can be transformed into opportunities to strengthen mindfulness practice.

 

heres the link to the blog if you wanna check it out: https://shargrolpostscompilation.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html#balancing-tmi-and-mctb-approaches

[The0Self]

2 hours ago, 3Observant6Observer9 said:

samatha or calming

Samatha is often translated as Calm. But really it's Samadhi plus joy, tranquility (fulfilment), and equanimity. And Samadhi is essentially in-distractibility.

[Oppositionless]

Side note, I find it quite interesting how daniel ingram mentions occult powers in his book and even claims to podsess some, but he still doesn’t know what God is.

it’s like he’s clinging to a form of materialism despite all the evidence to the contrary

[Ayham]

Work with TMI until Stage 8 (or even 10 if you want) then continue with MCTB2. 

You will be enlightened by Buddhist standards, then after mastering those, you can get into Kriya Yoga with santatagamana's book (Kriya Yoga exposed) while doing self inquiry in the "post kriya state". 

With the calm mind you have developed and combining self inquiry with Kriya yoga, you will have many awakenings, continue like this until you get a permanent full kundalini awakening. 

Then at this point you will only need the "do nothing" meditation technique along with psychedelics. 

 

This is my action plan I am doing. 

[Superb]

I like both books. While Culadasa may possess extensive theoretical knowledge and has written a good book, he engaged in years of infidelity, which raises questions about his ability to embody the teachings he espouses.

What Ayham said is my view as well.

[3Observant6Observer9]

@Ayham

Kriya Yoga is not really for me plus its not that effective without a guru and plenty of things could go wrong if practiced from a book. So I’m doing the Neigong and Alchemy course with Rudi whilst doing the Buddhist practices, they both complement each other really well along with Flying Phoenix Chi Kung and Zhan Zhuang. 

[Ulax]

@3Observant6Observer9 I'd say they actually can compliment each other, as they have seemingly quite distinct aims imo.

Ingram's book sort of details his understanding of the practical and theoretical aspects of the buddha's teachings. It focuses on the three trainings of the buddha: 1) Training in morality, 2) Training in concentration, and 3) Training in insight.

To my recollection, his writings, in that book, were very brief in regards to the second training. He really just said 'concentrate on something'. It doesn't  matter what it is really. Its just important to cultivate concentration, and there are a couple side effects involved in the process of doing. The book is focused much more on the first and third trainings.

In contrast, Culadasa's book is, to my recollection, only about concentration meditation. And, goes very detailed and in depth about the process of mastering concentration meditation. Hence, you could see Culadasa's book as being a very in-depth book about the second training of the buddha.

So, if you were to read both you would have a very comprehensive understanding of the three trainings of the buddha. I'd read Ingram's book first if you want to focus on: (1) Getting an understanding of what a very balanced and integrated meditative practice looks like, and/ or 2) Want to focus on improving your training in Buddhist morality, or insight. Alternatively, if first you want to focus on really improving your concentration meditation then I'd read Culadasa.

-------

Regarding my own personal preferences, I didn't find either book of great use, to me, practically.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Ulax

[3Observant6Observer9]

I was thinking what if I used loving kindness as an object of mediation and found out about (TWIM) Tranquil Wisdom Insight Meditation. There’s a book written about this. It highlights that the Buddha mentioned Mindfulness of Mettā practice more frequently in the suttas than Mindfulness of Breathing practice. The Buddha also stated that Mettā and Brahmavihāras practice alone can lead to the supreme attainment of Nibbāna. TWIM, using loving-kindness as the object of meditation, is found to be easier and yield faster results than using the breath. Additionally, TWIM includes a crucial step found in the suttas, which is key to achieving Nibbāna! You can get the free pdf here: http://library.dhammasukha.org/uploads/1/2/8/6/12865490/a_guide_to_twim.pdf