Belief Buster Regarding The External World

[Flow With Life]

Ah, it is peculiar how scientific materialism defeats itself, no? 

This is what the scientific materialist assumes:

- The eye takes in light from the external, and the brain converts it into "seeing" for the internal.

- The ears take in vibrations from the external, and the brain converts it into "hearing" in the internal.

- The nose, tongue, body take in scents, chemicals, and physical elements from the external, and the brain converts it into "smelling", "tasting", and "feeling" in the internal.

- These organs act as intermediaries between our internal world and the external world.

But then it follows that everything that has ever been seen, ever been heard,... smelled,... tasted,... felt, was created by the brain.

But then further notice that the idea of having eyes, ears, nose, tongue, and body are created by the brain. You have never seen a physical eye, because "seeing" is a thing that occurs in the internal. But the eye MUST be an intermediary, as assumed above, and yet we have NEVER seen a physical eye. The organs we know and study are not physical organs--intermediaries between external and internal--they are entirely internal phenomena.

Go one step further: we have also never seen physical brains. The brains we have seen are only internal phenomena.

Then there is no proof that the organs we have seen--which are entirely internal phenomena--actually operate as physical organs (i.e. intermediaries between the external and the internal). Without such intermediaries, from whence does the idea of anything external come?

Edited March 23, 2017 by Flow With Life

[Gopackgo]

If everything is awareness (the subject), then laws and theories are objects in the same way thoughts are. So maybe the question is: why are we so identified with the formless object occurring within awareness that we feel the need to poke holes in them?  Maybe this whole need to poke holes in formerly held beliefs to rationalize them is indicative of a deeper cause of the problem. Can this really be considered progress? I am thinking that we are continuing to need external justification to validate or rebut a belief we held prior to awakening. This could only be born out of attachment to a prior thought, or a need for attachment to new thoughts. I mean... rationalizing is one of the main functions of ego... Just a thought I had today. We are resisting our experience instead of accepting what is in this conversation.

[Nahm]

@Salaam The uncertainty is in the eye of the beholder. The illusion of counter balance with the other person exists only in each individuals head. If both held the belief, and acted from it, then there would be counter balance. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Nahm

[Mohammad]

5 hours ago, Flow With Life said:

Ah, it is peculiar how scientific materialism defeats itself, no? 

 

5 hours ago, Flow With Life said:

Then there is no proof that the organs we have seen--which are entirely internal phenomena--actually operate as physical organs (i.e. intermediaries between the external and the internal). Without such intermediaries, from whence does the idea of anything external come?

You are absolutely right.And all this seems so obvious,but somehow even some of the great scientists,even neuroscientists that studying the brain is their main concern in life cant see this!

And some just assume that: well,we know that brain creates our experience,and by this experience we know that "the brain"(matter) exist,but how this material thing creates our experience?well we dont know yet,so we use some lab equipment to figure this out!

but this is so obvious.if brain creates reality,which science says it does,then all of the material world is construction of it,even the fact that there is such a thing as brain! seems to me like a paradoxical joke.

[Nahm]

@Mohammad can you reference the science that states the brain creates everything? 

Also, what do you make of cases like patient HM who lose a part of there brain or an internal organ, and therefore lose a predictable function unbeknownst to them? Like memory and the Hippothalumus, or the pancreas and sugar regulation, or lungs and oxygen intake, etc. 

 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Nahm

[Emerald]

On 3/20/2017 at 3:08 PM, Gopackgo said:

This is a realization that had been kicked around in my mind for a long time. I have a scientific mind. What this means is that I allowed my beliefs to dictate my experience despite assumptions I took as given. I felt superior because ... it's science. One thing I had a lot of trouble with was the idea of no separate world from my awareness i.e. there is a tree over there that is separate from me, and I am over here. I was recently reviewing my sensation and perception notes from undergrad, and I had a realization that is big for me:

Lets look at vision. A scientific perspective says that light hits the retinal rod and cone cells, a chemical excitation takes place which is transferred into a chemical and electric signal that travels up the optic nerve to the occipital lobe in the brain where it is rendered into a visual experience. So I realized that even though I never saw this for what it was (a model) I accepted it for truth. But even this model requires the brain to generate my experience. The brain projects reality into a hologram that I was taking for granted. There absolutely cannot be any separation from any image in awareness, because the image perceived is a result of the awareness perceiving it. Everything I see is completely dependent on this projection under a scientific model, but this isn't the experience as it is. This is a belief that keeps me in separation from objects in my awareness and was based on the assumption inherent to the model I accepted.  Every sensation including thought works this way. The mind projects all things, and the mind is an object in awareness. Awareness contains it all. If I am awareness, I am the container in which all experience takes place. None of the experiences occurring can be the subject that is containing it (see neti-neti). I have been reminding myself of the inherent limitation of models in every moment. I am not separate from that which I see, I am creating it. This is the only thing that makes sense. It seems obvious. The experience that triggered this for me was noticing the depth of the darkness when I close my eyes and meditate. It is almost like a holodeck with nothing being projected. It is pure unadulterated potential to form experience.

Now consider whether or not light is vital in this projection. When we dream, is there any light, or further, any sensation that provides the stimulus for the experiences in the dream? No. Of course not. Therefore, we are fully aware that our brain projects these things even in absence of stimulus. Generally dreams aren't mere memories, they are new experiences. Further, time is distorted in a dream. So time cant be a constant external dimension. It is a sensation like any other. Many psychologists believe that everyone in a dream is a projection of yourself (it would have to be because the awareness of other can only be supplied by your own individual awareness.) So, the question becomes, Is waking reality any different? Can it possible be any different than that? Could we all be a piece of the same awareness, creating a container that is a consensus reality that provides a void for experience to flow through? Is matter required in a dream to make a physical reality? I know my current answer to all of these based on my experience, but I write to show how deceptive models can be. Science = Models, not reality. It is only a working representation that seems to make the most sense, until it is supplanted by a new model. The assumptions we rely on are powerful and arrogant. I am trying to search and destroy via direct experience. A lot of this is vision based, but it extends to everything. If anyone has any thing to add, or any corrections, I am excited to learn them. I would say that this was a pretty big non-dual experience for me, and I am just in wonder that I ever thought differently. The walls continue to fall away as I see what really is and it is awesome.

This is a great start to questioning something that we normally take for granted. I would caution you, though, to be sure not to fall on the other side of the horse. It doesn't seem like you're doing this, but it's a good thing to keep in mind. It's the point of 'completely unsure' that you want to be at and not a point of certainty that the external world doesn't exist.

[Gopackgo]

@Emerald  see my last post. Thank you. Its all a rationalization. Its me trying to force an idea to be experience. They only thing that would do that is the "I". I may be done reading about all of this for a while. I've gotten too far from direct experience. It is creating conflict in me. The best way to learn about awareness is to be awareness. Every other way of discovering it is a projection or rationalization. It isn't reality as it is. BTW, I watched a few of your videos recently. Thanks for what you are doing. I know it can be a thin line to walk between being productive vs. counterproductive for your viewers. 

Comparing my new experiences to old beliefs isn't progress. Finding the source of my attachment to them is though. When you get on forums and feel like arguing with someone, it means that you are working from a belief system. Argument is defense of attachment. Basically, I was applying the scientific form of thought to my new experiences to rationalize them. Life is hilarious in that way. Realizations don't work like this for me. They come to me through experience, they aren't a result of logic.

[Emerald]

6 minutes ago, Gopackgo said:

@Emerald  see my last post. Thank you. Its all a rationalization. Its me trying to force an idea to be experience. They only thing that would do that is the "I". I may be done reading about all of this for a while. I've gotten too far from direct experience. It is creating conflict in me. The best way to learn about awareness is to be awareness. Every other way of discovering it is a projection or rationalization. It isn't reality as it is. BTW, I watched a few of your videos recently. Thanks for what you are doing. I know it can be a thin line to walk between being productive vs. counterproductive for your viewers. 

Comparing my new experiences to old beliefs isn't progress. Finding the source of my attachment to them is though. When you get on forums and feel like arguing with someone, it means that you are working from a belief system. Argument is defense of attachment. Basically, I was applying the scientific form of thought to my new experiences to rationalize them. Life is hilarious in that way. Realizations don't work like this for me. They come to me through experience, they aren't a result of logic.

I do this all the time. I even find myself trying to get a deeper experience of reality by thinking about it. Thanks for checking out some of my videos.  

[FirstglimpseOMG]

If when in the midst of dreaming I become aware that I'm dreaming, and make conscious changes to the dream, including testing physical sensations to see what they feel like and how they are perceived, and then my consciousness immediately determines that there is no experiential difference between that particular sensation or group of sensations and the same sensations in 'real' waking life..  ...???

..in my dream, me (the subject experiencing any forms or phenomena) has no brain, no body, nothing physical, no organs, no sense perceivers, ...nothing! In my dreams, it seems to be nothing but pure consciousness, having experiences. 

Now, I'm as confused and struggling, reaching, speculating and grinding my gears as much as the next layman in all this non-duality newness, immersed in a new world of possibilities and insights, and I really only know that I don't exactly know very much when it comes to reality and my true nature... but this isn't really even speculation or confusion, it's my empirical experience that during the few times my consciousness has become lucid while asleep, my experience of physicality and reality matches, and is indiscernable from, waking 'reality'.  

If I reverse-engineer that experience, backing it up one level in a thought experiment; Does THIS waking consciousness, usually considered by the masses to be the mind-body even need a body, or brain for consciousness? Wait a minute, what if the world (universe, everything) was ENTIRELY contained within consciousness and the consciousness was NOT contained within the brain.

That opens up a lot of questions. Awesome.

Edited March 23, 2017 by FirstglimpseOMG
Damn grammar

[Gopackgo]

Stay mindful of your thought processes. Are you doing what I did? Are you trying to rationalize or force some kind of progress? The self is a sneaky fucker. The good thing is that every time you catch it read handed, it is a benefit to you as awareness. Thought creates conflict, belief systems create conflict. Even the assertions I just made are creating a conflict. Just be awareness. When you feel conflict, there is a resistance. Resistance comes from self. Awareness just is.

[Mohammad]

9 hours ago, Nahm said:

@Mohammad can you reference the science that states the brain creates everything? 

Also, what do you make of cases like patient HM who lose a part of there brain or an internal organ, and therefore lose a predictable function unbeknownst to them? Like memory and the Hippothalumus, or the pancreas and sugar regulation, or lungs and oxygen intake, etc. 

 

It is one of the basic assumptions in animal physiology and neuroscience.And how humans recognize that brain creates our experiences?exactly by the help of cases like HM.Lots of information about function of different parts of brain come from studying pathological cases like HM and others.scientists see that this particular human has some abnormalities in his behavior and consciousness , and when they look at their brain they can see some anatomical abnormalities in them,and then they connect the function of that part to that task(like if someone has an abnormal amygdala and he doesnt feel fear,they assume that amygdala has something to do with creating emotion of fear).and nowadays fMRI machines and EEG have also help them in identifying this.

So because we see that changes in structure of brain or function of brain cells(e.g. by using drugs and chemicals) causes changes in our experiences,it is commonly held belief among scientists that brain is the creator of experiences.

But,we also can think of brain not as the creator,but as the receiver.

[Arkandeus]

physical laws exist because we allow them to, so that we as spiritual beings can explore infinity in a certain context.
We are not bound to anything, we are infinity.


There are dimension where civilizations live with different laws.
That's the point of a dimension. In the dimension itself there can be rules and laws. But that doesn't mean these laws are universal.
If the collective consciousness agrees to change a certain law, that law will change.

When we dream we have access to dimensions that are more fluid, where you can fly, appear ,dissapear.dreaming is being in another dimension

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Arkandeus

[PureExp]

@Mohammad You are thinking in a right direction (in my opinion).

A common argument that an idealist would put is - "if a component in a radio is broken, the radio malfunctions, but the news reader in the radio station remains unaffected."   So that's the famous radio analogy.

I consider brain not as receiver but as an interface. So (according to me, and you don't need to believe me), the brain is not a physical structure, senses are extension of brain (CNS) and are also not physical. Moreover, our bodies and world is also not physical. Obviously, mind is not physical too. Everything is modulations/structures in consciousness. You can think of everything as made of a "metaphysical substance", for convenience.

Next, whatever is relayed to mind (perceived) via sense structures gets tagged as "physical", whatever is relayed directly, is "non-physical". So structures like objects, bodies, rocks and planets are seen as physical while thoughts, emotions, memories etc. are seen as non-physical. The division is made in the mind, because of different modes of perceptions.

And that elegantly explains how non-physical things like thoughts and intentions act on a body. And how the body in turn can act on matter or matter can register itself on mind via senses. Its not magic anymore ! They are all same - so its a straightforward chain of events.

So brains acts like an interface for non-physical<->physical. But all it does is reformatting of modulations in metaphysical substance and integrates the sense perceptions into an overall single mental experience. So in essence, it all happens in consciousness.

[Mohammad]

2 hours ago, PureExp said:

So in essence, it all happens in consciousness

@PureExp Absolutely.And what a beauty is this consciousness.

[Nahm]

@Mohammad gotcha. Facinating difference between reality and experiences, in terms of creation. Where is that line I wonder. Who made these laws of physics I wonder.

[Mohammad]

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Where is that line I wonder. Who made these laws of physics I wonder.

I wonder that too

[Nahm]

Best I can make of it, is that it's all me, all us, all one. And that it's extremely relative. Example: Sex is one of the best feelings in the world. UNless of course you've had to pee for hours. Then peeing is the best feeling in the world. So I suppose my experience here is relative to everything so far, and the me, and the oneness me. Without the laws there would be no limits, and no relativity, and therefore no experience at all. 

So thank you everyone, for the laws.

[Gopackgo]

What I am saying is that maybe thinking about what awareness is and what it's limits are is a useless exercise. The best way to know awareness may be to be awareness. If thinking about it creates a sense of what we want to be true, then we are projecting our self onto reality. We rationalize to make the possibilities we like fit. This is how illusion is propagated. If you have had insights/realizations in the past, have you been able to think your way there? Or were they given to you followed by a knowing that some form of old belief is forever changed? I feel like it has been too easy for me to read all of these external experiences about reality, and then try to string together some kind of theory. The only thing driving that could be the self. My mind went quiet immediately after that popped into my head. It's not about the outcome of what reality will, can, or should be, from the perspective of my self, It is about experiencing it directly and not allowing beliefs to control me.

[Gopackgo]

No bullshit.... I just started watching Leo's rationality video... Not the first time that I experienced an insight that I then hear on his channel. Some of these things are incredibly universal. It gives me goose bumps.

[FirstglimpseOMG]

I have come to understand that 'perception IS reality'. Not a physical object experiencing other physical objects 'out there'. Not us perceiving all that's around us, but awareness itself, creating, manifesting and popping 'reality' into existence, nano-second by nano-second. If you can perceive it, you are creating it BY perceiving it. There is nothing past your perception. It doesn't go 'out one level' from the perceiver in order to be experienced. The perception IS the 'reality' that 'you' are perceiving.