Leo, why do you think you are the most awakened being on this planet?

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Moksha said:

Shhh, you're ruining the entertainment. How are we supposed to know which gladiator to cheer for when all of them lay down their swords and sink into the sand?

Well, I don't have the worry that humanity will run out of gladiators any time soon.

But some of the smarter gladiators could start thinking of themselves as Manjushri...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manjushri

"Mañjuśrī is depicted as a male bodhisattva wielding a flaming sword in his right hand, representing the realization of transcendent wisdom which cuts down ignorance and duality."

... and the show will go on.

And Maya will smile at us all. And a few could even smile back and not look serious at all.  

And maybe the ones smiling and having fun are or were candidates of Mañjuśrī-Seppuku? 

Well, if there weren't a show like that already running... One (without a second) ought imagine one....  

 

Water by the River

[Yimpa]

15 hours ago, Moksha said:

Any sense of specialness, either as a teacher or as a follower, is a sure sign that you aren't awake. Realizing the awareness that underlies every appearance dissolves the idea of being a person, let alone the idea of being the most awake person on the planet.

Specialness is the illusion of separation. People are special, but reality is not.

Reminds me of this scene from Invincible. I started watching this show today, and wow… I’m surprised how much depth it has; it actually speaks about the awakening process pretty well. 

 

[SeaMonster]

42 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Can someone on this thread please tell me what it REALLY means to be awake and the difference between being awake and being enlightened. 

There isn't one central authority governing the use of language pertaining to spirituality, so the words are used quite loosely and interchangeably by some, and for others enlightenment is ultimate while awakening may be an initial experience of spirituality.

I tend to modify either term with "partially" or "fully" for clarity's sake.

Then some people call a psychedelic experience as awakening.  It may be an awakening, loosely speaking, but it doesn't mean it is a nondual awakening where you have permanently shifted into a state where you no longer experience "the center" (i.e. "I" is identified as the body or some bodily location, like point between your eyes.)

After that state where you experience "the center" there are a bunch of intermediate states, where you progressively identify with local emptiness, universal emptiness, God/bliss, and ultimately all identification ceases and the subject-object duality is gone.   You can call this full awakening or full enlightenment or whatever else you want.  There are different names for this. Moksha, self-realization, sahaja samadhi, etc.

(Of course, past that there is a period of years of integration, because personality habits have to unwind.  A lot of shadow work takes place here.)

So if you want a definition, enlightenment is the attainment of the "natural state" where conditioned notions of separateness are seen through and realization of The Absolute as the true reality is complete.

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by SeaMonster

[Water by the River]

49 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

Can someone on this thread please tell me what it REALLY means to be awake and the difference between being awake and being enlightened. 

Well, BazookaJesus is the most AWAKE, and Nobody is enlightened.

Ok, enough kidding. 

Awakening: Basically, you can experience 95% of Nonduality/Mystical Experiences with a center/separate-self still not fully seen through/transcended. And that is what prevents fully realizing or Being Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness itself. You definitely can have Unity/Nonduality Experiences with some kind of separate-self (although often quite empty, ego/persona quite transcended) still well & alive.

Full Enlightenment: When these last remnants of the separate self disfiguring True Nonduality (or ones True Nature of Infinite Reality itself) are seen through, transcended, suffering ends and grasping for experiences/insights/understandings end. Impersonal centerless Empty Boundless Eternal Infinite Consciousness/Reality. That which you and every being already is right now, can never not be, but are (maybe) not fully aware of.

Semantic Challenge: Often Enlightenments and Awakenings are equated and/or confused.

But most often, Enlightenment is considered an "end-state", an end of suffering. Understanding of relative stuff and exploration & the adventure of course can continue. But beyond Full Enlightenment there is only more relative stuff (form) to explore. The Absolute Reality has been understood or realized.

• Suffering is dramatically(!) reduced and the potential of Ones True Nature to fully end suffering is understood and takes over
• understanding/being what One really is is the hallmark of Full Enlightenment.

 

More on the topic:

And confusing Awakening and (Full) Enlightenment is confusing the road to more high-level-dreams (with some necessary illusion/ignorance/suffering) with the road to the Deep Identity Level Shift of Full Enlightenment, or the end of suffering.

All has its time and place, and the point of the ride is the ride. But at some point, comming home is also wonderful.

Beautiful Book: Coming Home: The Experience of Enlightenment in Sacred Traditions, Lex Hixon

Bon Voyage

Water by the River

Edited June 26, 2023 by Water by the River

[SeaMonster]

24 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Awakening: Basically, you can experience 95% of Nonduality/Mystical Experiences with a center/separate-self still not fully seen through/transcended. And that is what prevents fully realizing or Being Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness itself. You definitely can have Unity/Nonduality Experiences with some kind of separate-self (although often quite empty, ego/persona quite transcended) still well & alive.

Yes.

The ego just gets trickier until it is fully extinguished.  The point is that there is still an "I" thought.

"I" may think it is the entire universe or one with God or whatever, but...there is still an "I."  

If a fully enlightened person tries to do self-enquiry (ask "who am I?") the feeling that comes back is that the word "I" is a fiction and that there is only The Absolute, The Self, the Nondual Consciousness, etc.

So there is a simple test for the state one currently experiences.

Edited June 26, 2023 by SeaMonster

[Javfly33]

22 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

 

Full Enlightenment: When these last remnants of the separate self disfiguring True Nonduality (or ones True Nature of Infinite Reality itself) are seen through, transcended, suffering ends and grasping for experiences/insights/understandings end. Impersonal centerless Empty Boundless Eternal Infinite Consciousness/Reality. That which you and every being already is right now, can never not be, but are (maybe) not fully aware of.

 

@Water by the River Nice ??

I feel this is forgotten very easily. Some people here seem to be very deep about realisations, enlightment, reality, etc... but they still accept part of suffering as normal. This is what tells you, they haven't really broken through.

When truly self is extinguished, there is no trace whatsoever of suffering. There's no high state of consciousness to be understood, and there is nothing to be conscious of. 

All of that implies limits, dualities, 'things' of being conscious of. This is suffering in disguise, still there is an ego. Even though it might seem like there is not. 

[Davino]

A central point is: how many exploration of consciousness is needed (if it's needed at all) to wake up? 

If it's needed then without tools like psychedelics it's impossible. If it's not needed then it just is a great way to understand yourself ever more deeply and to interconnect with yourself ever more deeply and this goes on for infinity, but is that awakening, is that compulsary? Idk

 

[Javfly33]

if there is a 'feeling' or an 'experience' there is already a certain suffering. We only interested in Total Destruction. ??

[SeaMonster]

8 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

if there is a 'feeling' or an 'experience' there is already a certain suffering. We only interested in Total Destruction.

There is always an experience or feeling.  Suffering is an interpretation, i.e. in the mind.  It's the sense that this is "bad" and I want "the good stuff." So it's failure to be present.  But in being present, all kinds of experiences are possible.

9 minutes ago, Davino said:

A central point is: how many exploration of consciousness is needed (if it's needed at all) to wake up? 

If it's needed then without tools like psychedelics it's impossible. If it's not needed then it just is a great way to understand yourself ever more deeply and to interconnect with yourself ever more deeply and this goes on for infinity, but is that awakening, is that compulsary? Idk

You have to let go of Leo's teachings, because all that stuff is just not true.  No, you don't "need" psychedelics to awaken.  You can get shaktipat, e.g.  You can do self-enquiry.  Leo is universalizing his own particular journey (which is very problematic.)  His attitude is "it didn't work for me, or it didn't work fast enough, therefore it DOESN'T WORK."  Takes quite an ego to make such assumptions.

Edited June 26, 2023 by SeaMonster

[Water by the River]

33 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

I feel this is forgotten very easily. Some people here seem to be very deep about realisations, enlightment, reality, etc... but they still accept part of suffering as normal. This is what tells you, they haven't really broken through.

Yes. Let us assume a few things as true (and see if they resonate):

• (1) that Reality ultimately is "good" (and not evil) and wants every being to finally realize its True Being.
• (2) Which (realizing True Being) luckily is the same as peace/bliss/happiness.
• (3) What is the ONLY way to ensure that? Suffering until realizing Ones True Being. At least suffering from time to time, to make beings keep searching and growing...
  • Only Alternative to that is: happy ever after not knowing or realizing what one really is, or what Reality is. Forever. Sounds rather cruel to me....

It is some kind of mathematical-logical formula if we just work with these three assumptions (that is why I wrote if they resonate). If we assume that these three points (1) (2) (3) are true, there has to be sometimes suffering until Full Realization happens.

And only the final thing (Full Realization, Deep Identity Level Shift of Full Enlightenment) delivers the peace of the transcedence of suffering.

And its not bleak, empty, dead, nothing, or "personal minus". It is the Fullness of Reality, personal/character (plus) minus separation. The celebration of manifestation, but without attachment. The character then can grow to its full potential, fear gone, joy and celebration here and now.

And the even better news is: One only illusory "leaving" ones True Nature and being separate. No"one" ever could really be separate. That is not possible in an Infinite Totality. It can only appear as such. The ILLUSION-arising of the separate-self within Oneself (True Self).

So THAT is the ultimate criteria or compass if there is one: Suffering or not. Separate-Self Contraction (and Illusion/Ignorance) or not.

An imaginary trip back home, after casting Oneself out into manifesting Infinite Realms of form and manifestation.

Bon Voyage & lets don't forget to celebrate the ride back home.

And lets never declare a stage as end-point that contains suffering. It only prolongs the way back home, until that illusion-mindset is also broken by suffering.

 

Selling Water by the River

 

She who is centered in the Tao can go where she wishes, without danger. She perceives the universal harmony, even amid great pain, because she has found peace in her heart.

Only in being lived by the Tao can you be truly yourself.

Approach it and there is no beginning; follow it and there is no end. You can’t know it, but you can be it, at ease in your own life. Just realize where you come from: this is the essence of wisdom

- Tao Te Ching

Edited June 26, 2023 by Water by the River

[Javfly33]

2 hours ago, SeaMonster said:

Suffering is an interpretation, i.e. in the mind.  It's the sense that this is "bad" and I want "the good stuff." So it's failure to be present.  But in being present, all kinds of experiences are possible.

 

Yeah you are right.

Quote

There is always an experience or feeling

Not always, No when you truly dissolve the 'I'. But I agree that I am talking about a certain degree of dissolution that goes beyond most people's imagination of what is possible. 

Quote

You have to let go of Leo's teachings, because all that stuff is just not true.  No, you don't "need" psychedelics to awaken.  You can get shaktipat, e.g.  You can do self-enquiry.  Leo is universalizing his own particular journey (which is very problematic.)  His attitude is "it didn't work for me, or it didn't work fast enough, therefore it DOESN'T WORK."  Takes quite an ego to make such assumptions.

?? This needs to be said in this forum. 

[Princess Arabia]

Thanks for the responses. Since the ego doesn't exist and God is everything including you and me, who is there to be enlightened or awakened? I'm going to try to ask all the questions in one post.

1. What is being awakened God or the Ego.

2. If I'm one with everything and everyone, and there's no distinction between me and a tree because that's just a distinction the mind created, and the false sense of self recognizes this, why do I need to get enlightened or awakened to that fact if I can intellectually understand this and live my life accordingly. 

3. I understand enlightenment is a stripping of all beliefs, ideologies concepts etc. and everything the ego believes itself to be, and is our true nature, why can't I just empty myself of all those concepts and become enlightened. I'm using the word "I" for the sake of clarity here.

4. Is the end of suffering the only "benefit" to acquiring the enlightenment state; and I'm not saying the pursuit to enlightenment should have any benefits because that suggests there's an "I" to gain something, but I notice a lot of "end of suffering" statements when explaining what enlightenment is. 

5. If everything is perfect and there's an intelligent design at play here, and God put itself to sleep so it can awaken to itself, why do we need to pursue enlightenment and to recognize there's no Self if it's part of God's plan to trick itself into being human so it can experience itself through the ego. Is that part of the plan, to see if it can awaken to itself. If so, then what, and if not, why doesn't it just stay unenlightened to have the experience.

These questions might seem a bit silly to some; and it's not that I really need to know the answers because I've surrendered and have trust in the process that's unfolding and know that I'm ok no matter what happens in my experience, but I'm just curious and would like to explore myself from other's perspectives. Thank you.

[Javfly33]

@Benton What is the normal sadhana/attitude to be receptive to dhanalynga? I have tried with the Snake Naga and the Linga Devi but never tried dhanalynga, what's special about it

[Breakingthewall]

23 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

understand enlightenment is a stripping of all beliefs, ideologies concepts etc. and everything the ego believes itself to be, and is our true nature, why can't I just empty myself of all those concepts and become enlightened. I'm using the word "I" for the sake of clarity here

Id say that it's more than that. 

There is a tendency to give all the importance to freeing oneself from thought and concept, and I would say that the fundamental component is energetic. Let's see, when you are 3 years old you have no concepts and you are not awake. there is an energetic body by default, call it karma, instinct, whatever. fear and attachment, but not only that. a combination of factors needs to occur for an actual opening to occur. and I would say that a fundamental factor is wanting it. you have to want to fully open up. reality is this, now. but it is impenetrable, it's veiled. You must desire to see through the veil. We'll see how far we can go.

 

[Water by the River]

53 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

1. What is being awakened God or the Ego.

• Infinite Consciousness/Reality (I don't use God though technically correct because it creates more misunderstandings in this context than it solves. Like blowing up the Ego to God-sized dimensions, which the exactly opposite route than transcending the separate self/Ego) is awake throughout. IT is aware, and is what you really are.
  • "It" (True You) is nothing specific (despite containg/being everything), but empty Awareness. Totally empty/nothing, but aware, and containing all form. But arising in it is what you think yourself to be right now (I-thoughts and I-feelings), that you don't see/view fast enough to transcend. You see "through" them, like coloured lenses.
• These lenses of perceptions (I-thoughts and I-feelings, separate-self arisings, making you feel and think you are a body or mind WITHIN Reality, but somehow separate from the boundless Reality) are what cloud your understanding of the Nature of Infinite Consciousness/Reality.
• When you learn to view (and cut) these arisings fast enough (long training process normally), awakened or nondual states can appear. Then the locatedness of "you" drops, making You the whole field. And other effects (infinite, eternal/always here, empty/impersonal). 
• The three points above are at least in my perspective more useful to describe the process (than asking what wakes up, God or Ego), because:
  • God or Infinite Consciousness doesn't awake. It is always awake/aware, can't be different.
  • The Ego doesn't really exist (EXist=stand out from Raelity). So it can't wake up. It the sum/Gestalt of the appearance of I-thoughts, I-feelings that arise in True You. Once your mindstream/perspective awakenes, these arisings are no longer believed and (if wanted) totally cut off. Your Ego/character becomes literally something like moskito buzzing around in you. And if the character becomes annoying/suffering, you can "chase" it away like an annoying insect. The volume/believeability of its voice goes to "lower than 5%" of what is was before.
    • That is just a pointer. It can only be really understood what it happens. The tools you use to imagine that state (necessarily including I-thoughts)  are those that prevent the awakend state in which you could understand it. So the path is Meditation,  Trekchö/Cut-Off every thought, Neti Neti, get empty, change to awakened states. And let these states refine and empty your Identity towards Truth.

53 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

2. If I'm one with everything and everyone, and there's no distinction between me and a tree because that's just a distinction the mind created, and the false sense of self recognizes this, why do I need to get enlightened or awakened to that fact if I can intellectually understand this and live my life accordingly. 

Because what clouds your mindstream, what you think you are, the I-feelings and I-thoughts, are not what you really are. You are much more. But you can only authentically say that when you are in awakened states. Before having stabilized these nondual states, thinking you are everything is just wishful thinking. It doesn't end suffering.

53 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

3. I understand enlightenment is a stripping of all beliefs, ideologies concepts etc. and everything the ego believes itself to be, and is our true nature, why can't I just empty myself of all those concepts and become enlightened. I'm using the word "I" for the sake of clarity here.

Because it is not a change of thinking/concepts. It is not deciding or believing to no longer belief concepts (That "stripping" would be more concepts). it is learning to cut any arising concept/belief/I-thought/I-feeling FAST enough so that your state changes to awakened and nondual states. Thinking to want to no longer belief or stripping of beliefs/ideologies is itself a thought process, not the cutting of all thought arisings including that one.

These are very specific states that have counterparts in the bodily energies for example. Enlightenment is a state shift towards nondual, boundless, and empty/impersonal (at least if there is intention for cutting the mindstream if wanted, for example for getting the bliss of the primordial Consciousness). At other times, the character can do its thing. But the body-mind has become an object doing its thing within YOU, Reality itself.

53 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

4. Is the end of suffering the only "benefit" to acquiring the enlightenment state; and I'm not saying the pursuit to enlightenment should have any benefits because that suggests there's an "I" to gain something, but I notice a lot of "end of suffering" statements when explaining what enlightenment is. 

(1) If it wouldn't remove suffering, what should make you stay in these enlightened states? You would continue grasping and searching for evermore experiences, like every unenlighened being.

(2) Also, you will know the nature of Absolute Reality beyond any doubt. That includes what You are, what Reality is, what every arising/form/phemenon is in its essence, and that you are immortal. And nothing else can be anything different than THAT. Since anything there could be, in any dimension or realm, would just be more "form" or content arisings within Infinite Consciousness.

But what would (2) be worth if you still suffer? You would search and grasp for some other experiences... Which obviously the enlightened ones stopped doing. All of them, at all times. They didn't grasp for experiences, and didn't suffer when they didn't get certain experiences. They for sure had preferences, could feel pain, but they didn't grasp or "psychologically-suffering-wise" resist what is.

She who is centered in the Tao can go where she wishes, without danger. She perceives the universal harmony, even amid great pain, because she has found peace in her heart. - Tao Te Ching

53 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

5. If everything is perfect and there's an intelligent design at play here, and God put itself to sleep so it can awaken to itself, why do we need to pursue enlightenment and to recognize there's no Self if it's part of God's plan to trick itself into being human so it can experience itself through the ego. Is that part of the plan, to see if it can awaken to itself. If so, then what, and if not, why doesn't it just stay unenlightened to have the experience.

Since every separate being (or better: perspective) is at its essence Infinite Consciousness/Reality itself, every mindstream will end up enlightened.

The game is to cast the formless out into form, explore the infinities of infinities that can be manifested (God will never run out of these), and come back home. It is the nature of Reality. It is apparently what Reality does. 

Love is what throws it all out, and pulls it all back, and its also the essence of every form. That btw. is not fancy mental musings, but actual Reality, potentially directly experienceable by every(!) being in certain awakened states.

Water by the River

 

PS:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrival_(film)

"During the evacuation, Donnelly expresses his love for Banks. They talk about life choices and whether he would change them if he could see the future. Banks knows that she will agree to have a child with him despite knowing their fate: that Hannah will die from an incurable disease and Donnelly will leave them both after she reveals that she knew this."

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

12 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

The game is to cast the formless out into form, explore the infinities of infinities that can be manifested (God will never run out of these), and come back home. It is the nature of Reality. It is apparently what Reality does. Love is what throws it all out, and pulls it all back, and its also the essence of every form.

Perfect explanation of what reality is. 

[Princess Arabia]

@Water by the Riverthank you for addressing my questions. In your last paragraph when you say "love is what throws it all out and pulls it all back", is that what's known to us as "Gravity"?

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Princess Arabia said:

I'm just curious and would like to explore myself from other's perspectives. Thank you.

It takes a great heap of faith to realize that others and you are _____________

I would complete the sentence, but I’ll let the universe decide.

[Ajax]

9 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

1. What is being awakened God or the Ego.

Ego: Imagine always wearing these sunglasses that fuck up everything you see, which fuck up everything you know. Everything you think and do. Everything you feel and believe. Everything that makes your aware. Imagine wearing those sobriety goggles but infinitely trickier. 

Awakened God: The eventually realization that you are wearing these trick goggles, and really Knowing.  Realizing that everything you thought you knew before was utter garbage. Of course, there are stages of insanely powerful realizations in the process. To explain infinity would take infinitely long to explain. To reduce as simply as I can. The Ultimate Realization. 

40 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

2. If I'm one with everything and everyone, and there's no distinction between me and a tree because that's just a distinction the mind created, and the false sense of self recognizes this, why do I need to get enlightened or awakened to that fact if I can intellectually understand this and live my life accordingly. 

Because you are living your life on a concept of the truth not the truth. You can't fit all 5 oceans into a shot glass. Now, concepts can be incredibly powerful... like the concepts related to science and technology. But they are nothing compared to higher level concepts, that lead to higher concepts, and so on... that eventually lead to truth. 

To simplify: You could, most people do, but you will be missing out. 

54 minutes ago, Princess Arabia said:

3. I understand enlightenment is a stripping of all beliefs, ideologies concepts etc. and everything the ego believes itself to be, and is our true nature, why can't I just empty myself of all those concepts and become enlightened. I'm using the word "I" for the sake of clarity here.

Ever heard of blind leading the blind? That is enlightenment in a nutshell. It would be useful not to think of it as a goal or destination, but a Knowing.  A major limitation we have is that we don't know the difference between truth and falseness. AT all.

Imagine Jane has made these amazing realizations about love and shares them with John. John isn't a total idiot and he realizes..."Hey" there is some Truth here I am going to keep that with me. And yes, John now has some Truth. The problem is... he didn't have the same realizations that Jane had. You see, so it is a partial truth. A weaker and deluded version.  So now you have some partial Truth that is filled with Bullshit.  Now John starts talking about these amazing revelations with friends with his own shit-Truth concoction and the friends will then create their own Shitty Truth. 

Remember when I motioned about the Trick-Goggles that are composed of near infinite deception? This is one feature of deception. So, when you say it is stripping of all beliefs. It is true, but at the same time it is very deceptive. You have to be able to really know what that means. You could Say EGO is nearly infinite deception. But unless you can really understand that you are going to be deceived. 

Even If I tell you that Ego is like a set of super tricky googles that completely distort your perception, causing you to limit your consciousness of God and it was one of the highest Truths you could put into words. You should not accept it as True.  Because it is not True from your perspective. You did not make the realizations about it that I did, you did not conceptualize it like I did, you did not make the deductions that I did, you did not contemplate it like I did. IT IS NOT TRUE FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE!  Even if what I tell you gives you a magical feeling, The most magical feeling, like stardust flew into your face and it completely changed your life.  You should not completely accept it as true. IT STILL IS NOT TRUE!  That is the great deception. If you are close to something that is True, the EGO will weaken and you will feel amazing, better than you have ever felt. But before you can enjoy it. The EGO will conceptualize it in its own way that Is not true.  You experienced truth and the EGO rearranged it for you. 

So that in essence even the concept of enlightenment is an idea that someone's ego fucked up. You are getting a Shitty Truth here. Some truth mixed with a giant pile of steamy hot shit.

2 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

4. Is the end of suffering the only "benefit" to acquiring the enlightenment state; and I'm not saying the pursuit to enlightenment should have any benefits because that suggests there's an "I" to gain something, but I notice a lot of "end of suffering" statements when explaining what enlightenment is. 

People have no idea what enlightenment is, they just don't. Your realizations about enlightenment and suffering are worth much more than what anybody has ever taught you about the subject. It is ok to learn about them, just don't place any value of them unless you have had your own cognitions of magnitude even then... beware of booby traps.

 

2 hours ago, Princess Arabia said:

5. If everything is perfect and there's an intelligent design at play here, and God put itself to sleep so it can awaken to itself, why do we need to pursue enlightenment and to recognize there's no Self if it's part of God's plan to trick itself into being human so it can experience itself through the ego. Is that part of the plan, to see if it can awaken to itself. If so, then what, and if not, why doesn't it just stay unenlightened to have the experience.

I dunno, what do you think?

[Princess Arabia]

1 hour ago, Yimpa said:

It takes a great heap of faith to realize that others and you are _____________

I would complete the sentence, but I’ll let the universe decide.

Delusional?