Epistemological solipsism is true

[Water by the River]

16 hours ago, Someone here said:

If a supernova explosion happens in the edge of the universe..and no one observed it ..can we say it happend ?

If a tree falls in the woods and there is no one to hear it..does it make a sound?

Yes, it happened and it does make a sound. Because even molecules and atoms are Holons, or perspectives of  consciousness in Indras Net. And "they" react to and "perceive" all other atoms/molecules Holon perspectives.

If we say all is consciousness and all is imagined, we should be consequent. The Supernova affects all other building blocks of the Universe (which are of course also only Consciousness/Holons/Nodes in Indras Net, in this case mainly molecules), although these "other" building blocks/Holons/perspectives are also only imagined (so they are relative truth).

For more on that, see Ken Wilber "Sex, Ecology, Spirituality", or Arthur Koestler on Holon Theory.

Selling Water by the River

[Yimpa]

8 hours ago, Intraplanetary said:

How does this go with the infinity of gods realisation? Both are true?

 

[Someone here]

On 22/06/2023 at 1:45 AM, Loveeee said:

Do you realize space is illusory ? 

It's not . I can move back and forth in it .

On 22/06/2023 at 1:45 AM, Loveeee said:

There is no space for other minds 

There is no space for some parallel plane or whatever 

 

I'm not talking about some parallel plane .

The more fundamental questions you should be asking include:

Do minds exist at all? Let alone multiple minds.

If they do exist. what are they?

How can one identify a mind?

If they do not exist. .what are we?

 

[Someone here]

On 22/06/2023 at 2:14 AM, Moksha said:

Direct realization dissolves the "I" that thinks it exists. Apparent boundaries fade, and awareness is within and beyond everything. There's still the bare portal of a perspective, but instead of identifying as a person, the absolute sees the portal as a window to its imagination.

I hear you.

Abstract concepts like ‘the self’ clearly don’t exist in the way that material objects like the Eiffel Tower exist..but presumably you’re not in any danger of thinking they do. They are linguistic shortcuts which allow us to talk conveniently about groups of objects or phenomena which would otherwise have to be described at length every time we wanted to refer to them.

So without a sense of " I" you wouldn't know who's shoes to wear in the morning lol.

Epistemological Solipsism claims that you definitely exist even as an idea .but other minds not . So you are the only certain thing in existence. Others are impossible to know since they are impossible to access. 

[Someone here]

On 22/06/2023 at 3:50 AM, r0ckyreed said:

There is no edge of the Universe. The Universe is your experience. A supernova is your experience. You imagining a supernova is also your experience. You cannot get past consciousness

I know that there is no edge to the universe because its Infinite.  But I used that expression just for the sake of simplicity and for argument sake. 

I'm not saying you can get past consciousness..I'm saying whether or not there is stuff happening outside of my consciousness is unsure .

On 22/06/2023 at 3:50 AM, r0ckyreed said:

The question already assumes that a tree and forest exist without being perceived; therefore, a sound exists without being heard by the mere logic of the question. If X exists without being seen, then Y exists without being heard because Y always follows X. That is the logic.

The assumption isn't that what is not direct perceived doesn't exist. It is that there is stuff that exists that cannot be perceived.

Sound by its mere definition is a perception! If you cannot perceive sound, then sound does not exist. Soundwaves may still exist if you can perceive them, but the qualia of sound won't. 

You can only know through Consciousness

Yes i agree .so stuff can happen outside of your consciousness. But stuff cannot happen outside of Consciousness . That is to say a tree can fall but it won't make a sound unless there is a consciousness observing it  .not necessarily your consciousness .but certainly there must be consciousness observing it .because that's the whole definition of what a "sound " is .it's a phenomenon occurring within consciousness or qualia. 

On 22/06/2023 at 3:50 AM, r0ckyreed said:

The teapot will exist as consciousness. Whether the teapot is consciousness in matter form or idea is the question. But a teapot without form is a teapot that does not exist because the definition of a teapot is something that is observable and has definition and emptiness to it. Things exist as they are imagined to exist. A teapot that does not hold tea is not a teapot. A room with no space and walls is no longer a room.

Being perceived has everything to do with existence. If you cannot perceive colors, they cease to exist. If you cannot perceive sounds, music ceases to exist. Everything that you associate with existence is a perception!! You could think of death as the cessation of all perception/experience. That's what you really fear.

Now, what is the evidence that perception = reality? Well, that is a contradiction because all evidence is going to be a perception! Perception is more fundamental than evidence. Evidence is an idea and is completely subjective and occurring within one's own perceptions! Consciousness is your evidence

I think there is a difference between perception and consciousness . Perception doesn't even exist .because it assumes a perceived and and a perceiver. A subject and object .and that's duality .which is not actually found in direct experience. 

Consciousness on the other hand is self-evident .

Again if you don't see colors that means they cease to exist within your consciousness. But they don't cease to exist from existence completely. 

On 22/06/2023 at 3:50 AM, r0ckyreed said:

Exactly. The inference of the consciousness of another is the same as if there was no other consciousness. There is only ONE Experience happening.

Instead of claiming there is an invisible china teapot that cannot be observed, the simplest explanation is saying there is no teapot at all. The same applies to the inference of other minds. Rather than making claims that there are other consciousnesses that cannot be observed, just stick to the basic facts that Perception is Reality. 

Edited yesterday at 03:52 AM by 

I will say it again .just because you have no access to other consciousnesses does not mean they don't exist . You wouldn't be having this conversation with another human being if you truly believed there are no other conscious agents in the universe but you .

[Someone here]

On 22/06/2023 at 4:42 AM, Bazooka Jesus said:

Good god... Solipsism is a P.O.I.N.T.E.R. There, I literally spelled it out for you.

"Don't mistake the finger pointing to the moon for the f***ing moon."

- Old Zen Saying -

A pointer for what? 

On 22/06/2023 at 4:45 AM, Bazooka Jesus said:

Here's a little something that I wrote earlier today on another thread:

Look, it's really simple. (I know, the mind LOVES to complicate all this stuff, but bear with me...) - Reality is what you perceive. In other words, it's all the stuff that you see, hear, feel, smell, taste or register as a thought. And that is all that there is to reality. So it's not a mirage, it's not illusion, it not a dream; it is that which exists, period. And there isn't any "under the surface" stuff hidden somewhere behind the scenes; reality is one layer deep. (There is also no first or second order of reality... you either perceive something or you don't, so either it exists or it doesn't. There is nothing in between!) However, there is the totality of reality; and that totality is what people refer to as God, Consciousness, what have you. 

So, is Solipsism real? Of course it is... as a thought that you perceive. But that is the only kind of reality that Solipsism can claim; it exists as a mental concept, and apart from that, it has no reality whatsoever. Just like your elephants have no reality except as a thought that is popping up right here, right now. 

"But what about all the stuff that could exist but doesn't?" Well, the fact that it doesn't exist means that it couldn't exist, plain and simple. Of course, if you imagine something, that something takes on the form of a thought and that thought immediately becomes a part of reality. If you however suppose that there might be some kind of alternative version of reality which could exist instead of the version that does in fact exist, you are supposing the existence of something that is non-existent. See what I mean?

You equate existence with being perceived.  Do you perceive your blood flow ? Do you perceive your digestive system digesting food ?no right?  Then why do you believe they exist if reality is one layer deep? 

[Someone here]

On 22/06/2023 at 7:02 AM, Leo Gura said:

Absolute Solipsism is true.

It's not. How do I know ?simply Because It doesn't feel right. Its insanity.  And I have no interest in losing my mind.

It doesn't resonate. Moreover its just a thought in your mind . 

[Someone here]

22 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

That classic formulation is incorrect. It implies that a person is needed watching the falling tree. the falling tree and the person watching are an experience that is occurring. there can be an experience that is only the tree falling, since you are the tree, and the fact of falling. You are the experience,  It is very simple. but here there is something much more complicated: there are no limits, therefore, right now there is experience of everything. there are infinite trees and infinite supernova and infinite everything. where is? If you are the consciousness that creates the experience, where is the experience that was yesterday? If the absolute reality is now, where are the trees falling? in the future, in the past? that's a mind creation

 

You misunderstood infinity.  Infinity simply means its not fixed . So your direct experience right now is Infinite in the sense that you cannot find a beginning or ending to your field of consciousness  .

"Sound " and "explosion " are qualia .by definition consciousness stuff . Im not saying it cannot happen outside of Consciousness  .but it can happen outside of YOUR limited consciousness.  There is a difference between your consciousness and universal consciousness. 

[Someone here]

20 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Yes, it happened and it does make a sound. Because even molecules and atoms are Holons, or perspectives of  consciousness in Indras Net. And "they" react to and "perceive" all other atoms/molecules Holon perspectives.

If we say all is consciousness and all is imagined, we should be consequent. The Supernova affects all other building blocks of the Universe (which are of course also only Consciousness/Holons/Nodes in Indras Net, in this case mainly molecules), although these "other" building blocks/Holons/perspectives are also only imagined (so they are relative truth).

For more on that, see Ken Wilber "Sex, Ecology, Spirituality", or Arthur Koestler on Holon Theory.

Selling Water by the River

I agree ?.  Thanks 

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

On 22.6.2023 at 2:47 PM, Breakingthewall said:

It is very simple. but here there is something much more complicated: there are no limits, therefore, right now there is experience of everything. there are infinite trees and infinite supernova and infinite everything. where is? If you are the consciousness that creates the experience, where is the experience that was yesterday? If the absolute reality is now, where are the trees falling? in the future, in the past? that's a mind creation

Like I said before, you are creating complexities where there are none.

Your "infinite trees", "infinite supernovae", "yesterday's experience" etc. all exist here and now as a thought.

What the heck is complicated about that?

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Bazooka Jesus

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

You misunderstood infinity.  Infinity simply means its not fixed

Infinity means that nothing is finite, it only seems so. Any partition of infinity is infinity. very accurate the poem of the doors of perception, Blake. If the doors of perception were opened, reality would reveal itself as it is: infinite. but the man has locked himself in the walls of his cave. opening the doors of perception is the work we are doing. It is not easy, since as the poem says, the human has had the opposite tendency since it exists. fear has driven him to it

[Someone here]

33 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Infinity means that nothing is finite, it only seems so

Actually it doesn't . Since it's infinite..it contains within itself All finitude.  Is your body finite or infinite ?

 

[Yimpa]

On 6/21/2023 at 4:09 PM, Someone here said:

"I'm the only certain mind that exists and other minds cannot be known " is a claim that I agree with .

On 6/21/2023 at 6:14 PM, Moksha said:

Direct realization dissolves the "I" that thinks it exists. Apparent boundaries fade, and awareness is within and beyond everything. There's still the bare portal of a perspective, but instead of identifying as a person, the absolute sees the portal as a window to its imagination.

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

Abstract concepts like ‘the self’ clearly don’t exist in the way that material objects like the Eiffel Tower exist..but presumably you’re not in any danger of thinking they do. They are linguistic shortcuts which allow us to talk conveniently about groups of objects or phenomena which would otherwise have to be described at length every time we wanted to refer to them.

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

So you are the only certain thing in existence. 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2023 by Yimpa

[Someone here]

@Yimpa you still haven't told me what are you high on ?

[Breakingthewall]

58 minutes ago, Someone here said:

Actually it doesn't . Since it's infinite..it contains within itself All finitude.  Is your body finite or infinite ?

 

My body is infinite, because it's just a shape in the infinity, an appearance. it seems finite because you are trapped in the form, so you perceive the change of form as the end of something. the body is existence, like everything else. it is part of this experience. this experience is existence and therefore infinite. what is in it, for example the body, is irrelevant, changing appearances. 

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

Abstract concepts like ‘the self’ clearly don’t exist in the way that material objects like the Eiffel Tower exist..

Believe it or not, but those two things have exactly the same "degree" of reality. They both exist as thoughts in the here and now.

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

A pointer for what?

A pointer for THIS.

You wouldn't need pointers if it were possible to put THIS into words.

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

You equate existence with being perceived.  Do you perceive your blood flow ? Do you perceive your digestive system digesting food ?no right?  Then why do you believe they exist if reality is one layer deep? 

Again, the concept of "blood flow" and "digestion" exists as a thought. This thought is peceived in the here and now, thus it exists.

Edited June 23, 2023 by Bazooka Jesus

[r0ckyreed]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

I think there is a difference between perception and consciousness . Perception doesn't even exist .because it assumes a perceived and and a perceiver. A subject and object .and that's duality .which is not actually found in direct experience. 

Consciousness on the other hand is self-evident .

 

If only you could apply this same logic to self and other. Realizing that there is only the Self and no other. 
 

Just change subject and object to self and other and you’ll have:

“Self and other is a duality that is not actually found in direct experience. Self on the other hand is self-evident.”

Edited June 23, 2023 by r0ckyreed

[r0ckyreed]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

It's not. How do I know ?simply Because It doesn't feel right. Its insanity.  And I have no interest in losing my mind.

It doesn't resonate. Moreover its just a thought in your mind . 

You don’t know. If it feels right and makes you happy, you can bet that it isn’t Truth. 
 

 

[Moksha]

6 hours ago, Someone here said:

So without a sense of " I" you wouldn't know who's shoes to wear in the morning lol.

You can have a sense of "I" through the portal of the form, without identifying with it. You still see the shoes and put them on, but you remain aware that the shoes and the person wearing them aren't absolutely real.

[Yimpa]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

you still haven't told me what are you high on ?

Not Kool-Aid.