Body language analysis is a thing to study. megathread

[Danioover9000]

   This will be a big compilation of people to study from, to read their body language and tonality, and what they're saying and word choices versus what their tonality, face, eyes, mouth, head, shoulders, arms, neck, chest, tension, and even leg and feet position tell us, simplified as subconscious mind leaks of agreement or disagreement with what the conscious mind stated. Of course, ALL HUMAN BEINGS HAVE A BIAS, therefore there'll be some skewed interpretations from my part when I analyze and observe each person's communication to others here, as there's appeals and fallacies to logos as well as ethos and pathos that must be clearly stated. If objectivity and truth of logic and science was absolute, then I wouldn't be able to BS my way when I presented my English presentation back in college, of when I fudged and made up data points and statistics that sounded context appropriate but are made up BS and I got away with it because of how charming I presented myself. So, in this mega thread I'll post some videos and look for body signs of deception and defensiveness to a word choice, tonality, the interview/interrogation dynamics and framing, and optionally past contexts if I felt some partial truth was communicated, but needed more context.

   So, let's start with these two that I do admit liking, for their older content, but mixed feelings for their recent contents in YouTube, and both are in the Patrick Bet Dave podcast which has slight right wing biases, individualism, business man biases, and Libertarianism:

   

[ryandesreu]

@Danioover9000  I like this subject. Just don't teach it to AI. They will end up reading our every thought. 

[Danioover9000]

8 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   This will be a big compilation of people to study from, to read their body language and tonality, and what they're saying and word choices versus what their tonality, face, eyes, mouth, head, shoulders, arms, neck, chest, tension, and even leg and feet position tell us, simplified as subconscious mind leaks of agreement or disagreement with what the conscious mind stated. Of course, ALL HUMAN BEINGS HAVE A BIAS, therefore there'll be some skewed interpretations from my part when I analyze and observe each person's communication to others here, as there's appeals and fallacies to logos as well as ethos and pathos that must be clearly stated. If objectivity and truth of logic and science was absolute, then I wouldn't be able to BS my way when I presented my English presentation back in college, of when I fudged and made up data points and statistics that sounded context appropriate but are made up BS and I got away with it because of how charming I presented myself. So, in this mega thread I'll post some videos and look for body signs of deception and defensiveness to a word choice, tonality, the interview/interrogation dynamics and framing, and optionally past contexts if I felt some partial truth was communicated, but needed more context.

   So, let's start with these two that I do admit liking, for their older content, but mixed feelings for their recent contents in YouTube, and both are in the Patrick Bet Dave podcast which has slight right wing biases, individualism, business man biases, and Libertarianism:

   

   The part where the Hodge Twins introduce themselves is interesting. The majority of the podcast Keith, closest to Patrick, and Kevin on the far right, Keith has a more subdued hands/arm gestures, micro tensed shoulder shrugs depending on certain word choices, and his arms and hands mostly were face down on table, sometimes crossed and sometimes in prayer positions, sometimes reacting what was said or subtly aggressed, his right dominant hand covers left(big brother covering little brother) plus self soothing by slight rubbing of the forearms when gently push back or reacting to a more heated topic. Kevin's hands are more gesturing and more stippling/crossed fingers, with occassionally index fingers wagging at Patrick or Adam for emphasis or subtly warning them, and lots varied hand waving and hand waves when talking about touchy topics, and distancing or dismissing or disagreeing and being defensive in 'waving the people or problem away'. first 20 minutes, that part where they described the moment when they reacted to that big muscly Indian guy bullying the two tall skinny white teens, him taking the MAGA hat and splashing them with their drinks, they did tell them the truth, but they were a bit defensive and deceptive because they omitted the two following statements: By Keith who said 'imagine if we were wearing that hat, and we were there looking like this. Would that guy do anything?' something like this, which already is shaky guided visualization to trigger the viewer to imagine that picture, but the actually final nail in sealing that spike downwards in views is when either Keith or Kevin said 'Make America Great Again!' followed by laughing due to the comedic state, which is largely very triggering because who else said that catch phrase? And what does it insinuate??  Back to present, why did Keith omit the two statements? Intuitive speculation, it's because they are trying to look like objective logical conservatives appealing to that bias and audience within Podcast framing, even though everyone knows and has seen what they're really like in their conservative twins channel, and in the Hodge Twin channel, that he had to omit the two statements to APPEAR like he said an innocently sounding objection to the big guy bullying the teens and taking their hat, when IN FACT he said some very loaded terms and imagery sugar coated with joking and humour that caused that backlash. Also minor moments of defensiveness or disagree between Keith and Kevin when he saying to not clearly say we're democrats or conservatives, the eyes and eyebrow raises(eyebrow raising typically mean the three: social approval/connection, emphasis or surprise).

[charlie cho]

To learn body language, it's important not to read about body language just by books, though it can help. 

First one has to engage kinisthetically with the body. If you wanna understand a musician, be a musician yourself, if you wann understand a boxer, be a boxer yourself. 

Best way to learn body language. 

No certain 'eye position' 'feet position' studies will help us understand a person. Life isn't that simple. The world is too complex to reduce certain body languages to axioms.

Two ways. One has to be so good with body language as if Leonardo Da Vinci sees another painting and he will be able to analyze it better than any fraudulent curator. Read body language as if Kobe Bryant can read the opponent's next move just by looking at someone's eyes. 

The second way, one has to be able to analyze another person's words as if Oscar Wilde may read another person's writing and will be able to analyze it 100 times better than anybody else. And how Sherlock would analyze a scene scientifically step by step, not by axioms, but by his complex understanding of an evidence. His understanding didn't come from his meditation techniques, it came from years of careful study and diligence.

These two ways is the best way to understand body language. Constant practice, but also with book studying, both need incorporation for careful analysis.

Edited June 21, 2023 by charlie cho

[Danioover9000]

   34:30 to 38:30 is the part I was referring to when they omitted the two statements and didn't described how they reacted that made them lose so many followers. A lot of tells, body language and tonality of defensiveness and disengagement in that time frame, less of deception, but the fact they changed the story is also I'd consider deception here which is why they didn't show as much deception in body language because Keith is telling a half truth, a partial truth that did happened but omitted a few details that would have made them look less than objective conservatives to their current viewers.

   1:04:20 to1:10:00, so much to deconstruct. Lots of hand and face movements from Kevin when talking of the Ukraine/Russia war, what if Donald Trump was president which is fantasy. Also eyebrow raise on 'war' from Kevin, seeking social approval, emphasis or surprise, maybe it's emphasis but plus the crossed arms and hand finger movements I'm feeling some defensiveness. Right before Kevin emphasizes 'war', Keith was like 'There's people dying in Ukraine' and other words I couldn't pick up, but I see jerky quick shoulder shrug followed by wide splayed hands, palms facing together and a tensed face, don't know if it's surprise or of disbelief of what happened or disbelief of what he's saying himself. Kevin also indicates a past timeline with his right thumb pointing backwards, implying a future timeline of forwards for him, and also Keith does this sometimes. However, outside body language analysis,. I FEEL some disingenuous intent here, because when he did that gesture plus said 'wars today are not like wars of the past', 'nobody wins' with hands waving from wrist position away that statement, and 'when Russia invaded Ukraine, there's so many things that could be used to prevent them from happening', there's shaking of the head quick and briefly, followed by hand touching each other either to sooth or to self protect, and Kevin's face lights up with a mix of disapproval or disagreement with sudden surprise of that last part of the statement.

   Personally like this part, and found out this is common in every podcast they do together. Some passive aggressiveness and tension between Adam and Patrick here1:06:00 to 1:07:00, back and forth around what Biden would've done or should've done, and signs of defensiveness and building tension, which resolves slightly when Patrick noticeably raises his tonality to Adam of what he'd do, and is still facing forwards and not even acknowledge Adam's existence, Patrick's leaning slightly away, his right shoulder closest to Adam is much lower than his left, he's like, IMO, talking to a ghost or the screen in front of him, and raising his tone to...nothing. Contrast and compare this exchange and how more receptive and socially connective he is to the Hodge Twins, his guests, than to the professional side kick or 'partner' to his right which he rarely acknowledges mostly by tone if at all. Also, in that brief whole exchange he merely did a few quick glances to Adam but mostly faces away from him, looking forward again with active hands, arms, sometimes using index fingers to 'frame' or to 'make a point' which IMO is aggressive subconscious cues of trying to challenge the other but Patrick consciously suppressing that. Adam also having a mix of less defensive and more open and supplicating gestures towards Patrick, from what his face, hands, arms, and his reorientation to look almost square towards Patrick, SEEKING THAT SOCIAL CONNECTION/APPROVAL, whilst being passive aggressive when Patrick pushes back briefly here and there. Very interesting back and forth for both 'equal partners'.

   Oh my god, IMO this 'why Nancy Pelosi is presidential something' section is worth replaying for all the body languages between Adam and Patrick and Keith and Kevin, so much to unpack here it's AMAZING. First off, Adam and Patrick debate briefly here, and now I'm reading the body language and tonality, I think really it's Adam raising good points, and is desperate for Patrick's social approval here, because in this 'debate' Patrick still keeps facing forward, not reorienting to Adam, not a face turn and eyebrow raise to Adam, not a turn and open hand connection, not a turn and nod, not even a slower pace and calmer tone to deescalate, just slightly tonality raised by both in slight combat, and Adam gets slightly more animated and gesticulates, throws a verbal 'I got you, two steps ahead man. I'M WITH YOU ALREADY' kind of statements, with eyebrows raised for social approval which Patrick denies him of, it's like positionally the Hodge Twins and the screen are more socially valuable than Adam himself in this social setting, which in his POV i can understand how frustrating that is when your subconscious is seeking social approval but isn't getting that, despite the word choices and some words being charged. On the topics of immigration and the border, Keith and Kevin give so much body language that it'll be long to unpack, but I'll say what jumps to me. When Keith talks about comparing the left and right and Republicans being better politicians, there's a lot of defensive and deceptive body language, and that last part where he praises the Republicans, he retracts his lips inwards and tensed left smirking, a universal sign of 'contempt' and the retracting of lips is mostly the non verbal subconscious mind disagreeing with what's said.

   1:17:59 to 1:18:42. 'FYI, for you Adam' says Patrick in a slight condescending tone , pointing with his right thumb to him, but in a backhanded way, palm directly facing Patrick almost in the exact position a person giving the middle finger would give in front of him, that bit suggests to me that to Patrick Adam is an afterthought. For Christ sake, what a pompous sign of superiority complex, clearly to me this 'partnership' between Adam and Patrick is not equal. I'm feeling sorry for Adam LOL. At 1:18:42 - 43 to 1:19:03, Adam puts his hands up, signaling surrender and says 'Let me change the question differently, okay?" Gives good eye contact, brief eyebrow raise and left hand open and pointing to Patrick in friendly supplicating way, as he describes and frame changes by saying 'Patrick, you're an immigrant not born in America right?-and so are you guys-' then Adam says he's a 'Russian immigrant and his family were Russian immigrants that fled the Bolshevik revolution in the 1970's or whatever' and gives this revolving waves of his hands as if hands shrugging above his shoulders, head wobbling with slight eye frown and slight shoulder shrugs, all typical of an 'I don't know' as shrugging normally means, I think his I don't know is the date of his family fleeing exactly. Adam stutters with this 'Do you think that immigrant(hands emphasis this part)-like I FEEL that I-I-I-I WHOLE HEARTEADLY BELIEVE' right at the end of the stuttering, while he's saying whole heartedly agree, he gives left handed karate chops to the table, with most of his upper body to emphasis that he really does care for immigrants. Don't know if this is deceptive, but he's emphasizing here. At 1:19:01 -07, continues statement 'BELIEVE that immigrants should be  PROPPED UP AND APPRECIATED MORE(Hands emphasizing palms to Adam) than they should be(looks to either Keith or Kevin, eyebrows raised for emphasis/social approval/surprise)', after that he quickly turns he's palms outwards, eyebrows flash and a mix of shrugging and defensiveness flashes when he says' I don't know-I'M-I'M-I'M saying right and left(hands alternate right and left, remains in that defensive shrugging-'. Camera cuts to Keith interrupting Adam, saying 'YOU CAME THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR' tone raised noticeably aggressive for the first time, with right hand finger pointing with index, right shoulder level with chin as if he's aiming a gun at Adam, subconsciously very aggressive, posture slight lean towards Adam, then quickly Keith consciously corrects his finger pointing by bringing rest of fingers to point with a quick wrist flick and maintains this palms downwards to the table whilst emphasizing the next words 'YOU'RE FAMILY CAME FROM THE FRONT DOOR' adjusts aim to Patrick, with that wrist flick, downwards palm and arm level same, aiming a 'gun to Patrick as well saying 'HE CAME THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR', then when referring to illegal immigrants his right hand adjusts and thumb points to the back and right 'THESE PEOPLE AIN'T COMING THROUGH THE FRONT DOOR'. Each of Keith's raised statements Adam was saying 'Correct' in a level tone with slight supplication/defensiveness given Keith's outbursts. Adam adjusts and says' well, then my question would be that are we villainizing these IMMIGRANTS when-' Kevin this time interrupts by saying 'WE SHOULD BE'. Well, we now know, and if you've watched their recent content and takes in their conservative twins channel of the immigration, that they clearly are very opinionated with regards to this issue and don't realize how lucky they are being born and raised in America, despite being poor, in comparison to being born poor in some 3rd world country fighting to get into the USA.

    

[Danioover9000]

   Now, this is them in their environment, within their conservative twins framing, but covering a more serious issue. Good to compare and contrast with the podcast they did:

   Notice some slip ups and assumptions and ego projections that they sled underneath the joking and humour they do.

[Danioover9000]

   Slightly different podcast, get see more of their body language to dissect them apart:

 

[Danioover9000]

   Good general analysis of the interviews and how they communicated. While this guy isn't a body language analyst, he's giving good review and critique of the interviewing frame works, and comparing the two personalities and communication styles of Megan and Kate. Also body language analyzed their non verbals, their tonality for defensiveness and deception, not only of Megan and Kate but of William and Harry and the interviewer as well when camera widens to show the 5 in that camera shot:

   Other than the focus of this video being the two women, I again taken the body language, mannerisms of William and Harry as well in reaction to what these women have said which is very telling. After interview sets frame of conversation, giving credit to Kate, Kate with karate chopping hands emphasis generosity(1:28-1:30). Especially the multiple times when Kate was band wagon fallacy, and being inclusive with the 'we' and together' word choices, sometimes she quick glances at William, quick subtle eyebrow raises(sign of surprise, emphasis and social approval/connection), and in that camera angle I see William(1:30-1:36), who was leaning forwards, elbows on thighs, hands in prayer, knees open, then shifts up briefly, hands rubbing knees, quick adjust of suit and crosses knees, all in reaction to Kate saying "Actually it's just-actually going right to the beginning-" followed by hands emphasis and eyebrow raise and slight head shake. Whilst William adjusts Harry, leaning more to Megan and away from interviewer, jaw clenches and retracts lips briefly also in response, both feet and hands closed whilst keens apart and trying to appear confident yet defensive.

[charlie cho]

wow, the dedication you put in these posts, it's admiring. 

[Schizophonia]

So why do I like doing this so much? 

?

[Danioover9000]

   This is a really good one, Megan interacting with a very natural interviewer. These types can bring out much more from each other, and thanks to the YouTuber who did this, had a suspicion that Megan was a Narcissist or a sociopath from some of the validation seeking signs:

 

[Danioover9000]

@Schizophonia

16 hours ago, Schizophonia said:

So why do I like doing this so much? 

?

   Stippling usually more the fingers and sometimes the thumb connecting on the tips is typically a power sign, that you're subconscious mind is displaying confidence and power through the hands. When seated typically it's on the table, or slightly raised above, or sometimes on the lap combined with other body language signs and tonality that gives confidence. Sometimes stippling can be in the prayer position, maybe with some fingers interlocked and middle/index fingers or just index fingers pointing like Kevin did in that podcast, both a sign of defensiveness yet wanting to display power or emphasis on what was said or did.

   Of course, stippling alone I can't determine if it's your habit of just displaying power or 'master minding' a situation, or it's something else as you've stated you like doing this a lot so it's a bad habit of yours. This is why in body language  analysis we need several other contexts and other signs together to see where you're incongruent or congruent with your conscious mind's statements and word choices to tonality and non verbal cues, so just looking at your hand position alone there can technically mean much more. 

[Danioover9000]

   Another example, despite it being 10 minutes it's enough to observe body language and tonality and how words are used between the interviewer and James Cameron:

 

[Ajax]

Why does a thinking/pensive face often have the mouth of a sad face? 

[Danioover9000]

@Ajax

1 hour ago, Ajax said:

Why does a thinking/pensive face often have the mouth of a sad face? 

   Typically the muscles around the eyes tense, followed by other areas of the face as the conscious mind puts effort into focusing, and the subconscious mind is agreeing or disagreeing with what thoughts/feelings arise, caused by word choices, the topic discussed, the loaded statements/question said to the person. I assuming you're referring to James Cameron? Not too sure myself exactly why there's that range of tensions on the face when concentrating, it may be because in earlier life the person sees faces scrunched up, and it's very closely followed by the word focusing or concentrating, or when someone says to you and emphasizes that the other guy with that thinking face is 'concentrating'. IDK, to me seems also like that person's mind is accessing other mental representation systems(NLP=Neuro-linguistic-programming) when the eyes look at certain directions, like upwards or upwards left accessing a visual memory, or upwards right is imagining a visual, left for auditory memory and right for imagined or constructed auditory, lower right for constructed kinesthetic or feelings and lower left for remembering feelings and kinesthetic senses. Some people are so hard wired, for example Elon Musk, that their heads typically follows briefly where the eyes look, whilst accessing that part of the brain.

   I will be analyzing James Cameron's behavior in that interview, and also the other one too later, but do feel free to post what you think and observe when looking at that interaction.

Edited June 24, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Schizophonia]

8 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Schizophonia

   Stippling usually more the fingers and sometimes the thumb connecting on the tips is typically a power sign, that you're subconscious mind is displaying confidence and power through the hands. When seated typically it's on the table, or slightly raised above, or sometimes on the lap combined with other body language signs and tonality that gives confidence. Sometimes stippling can be in the prayer position, maybe with some fingers interlocked and middle/index fingers or just index fingers pointing like Kevin did in that podcast, both a sign of defensiveness yet wanting to display power or emphasis on what was said or did.

   Of course, stippling alone I can't determine if it's your habit of just displaying power or 'master minding' a situation, or it's something else as you've stated you like doing this a lot so it's a bad habit of yours. This is why in body language  analysis we need several other contexts and other signs together to see where you're incongruent or congruent with your conscious mind's statements and word choices to tonality and non verbal cues, so just looking at your hand position alone there can technically mean much more. 

I just find it particularly enjoyable. 

[Danioover9000]

   I don't know much of Zuby's podcast, or his biases, whether his left middle or right leaning, but apparently a fan of Hodge Twins for more than ten years:

   I'm also an ex fan, for roughly that time, for their old content and comedy mixed with fitness and junk food reviews, although never cared for their fitness or junk food stuff, only for the comedy and ridiculous shenanigans they come up with. However, when they became more political, after  is when it didn't resonate, too much pandering to white supremacists and alt right a bit, using ads for a pick up truck, and their 'Chinese virus affiliation code' or something, and repeating most right wing talking points. That's where I drew the line. They're sellouts not because they're traitors, mainly because of their fast switch to more political takes with comedy, just because they did this reaction the wrong way. Can't find the video but if you guys find that short video of them reacting to a big Indian guy taking that maga hat from a white teen, splashing his drink on him and walking away, that short.

EDIT: Found that clip, and the original from I think Instagram or Tik Tok, the two white teens were taller and slender and the guy doing the assaulting is much bigger:

https://youtu.be/_2DPW5AmRE8

[Ajax]

I haven't spent any time studying twins. To what extent do their body languages stay in sync and deviate? It seems they are so in sync that you could determine their real feelings by observing the disparity between the two. Especially If Kevin has a discordant reaction regarding a topic in one video and Keith having a similar discordant reaction regarding the same topic in another video. Therefore, the truth would actually be in the discordant details. In other words, typically, when one studies body language, they find a baseline and note and process the deviations from the baseline. However, due to the fact you are observing two people and they are intentionally being facetious... the deviations from the baseline are in fact the baseline! 

[Danioover9000]

   Another interesting take by James Cameron, will be analyzing his body language:

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Danioover9000]

@Ajax

On 2023-06-25 at 8:48 PM, Ajax said:

I haven't spent any time studying twins. To what extent do their body languages stay in sync and deviate? It seems they are so in sync that you could determine their real feelings by observing the disparity between the two. Especially If Kevin has a discordant reaction regarding a topic in one video and Keith having a similar discordant reaction regarding the same topic in another video. Therefore, the truth would actually be in the discordant details. In other words, typically, when one studies body language, they find a baseline and note and process the deviations from the baseline. However, due to the fact you are observing two people and they are intentionally being facetious... the deviations from the baseline are in fact the baseline! 

   True to some extent, from my POV, depending on certain word choices within a topic, tonality, micro expressions on face, the eye brows and muscular tensions around face, head, neck shoulders, non verbal leaks in the arms and hands, and even down to their feet I can already pick up so many subconscious clues and ticks in reaction to what the other twin said or the other interviewer said. I haven't said this in my analysis, but also worth factoring is how they use their humour, and irony, to also soften and disguise intent. Like with the Zuby podcast video, and the PBD video, when Keith or Kevin I don't know told that moment when they lost a lot of followers for that short video, I already seen that video here:

   And if you compare what they said here to what they're saying in podcasts, that's omitting parts of a truth you've said, which if you look closely in the Zubby video, when Kevin(the black shirt, arms typically crossed, I've noticed Kevin doing this posture far more than Keith) and Keith was eyeing him, and you can briefly see tension around lips and mouth, that subconscious part of him worrying if Kevin would tell the WHOLE truth and not PART of the truth, because again that video, and the last two statements of prompting the audience to imagine the twins wearing the maga hat plus the 'MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN' line was actually what caused that downfall, and not the current narrative from Keith/Kevin of them overreacting to them saying that he shouldn't assault the 'kids'(mind you, the 'kid' was a very tall white teenager) for wearing a hat. Sorry, but there's much more going on in that 54 second video than you're letting on.

   If I haven't clarified then, I was a fan of the Hodge twins for some time, so I've already soaked in their mannerisms and what they do really mean when they were old content makers, based on my observing them implicitly for entertainment and comedy, until they became too political and I moved on to other things. So, in this sense I've already got a rich collection of visuals and tells and mannerisms in my mind of the Twins that it's enough to intuitively feel if one was defensive/lying or not.