Solipsism and no self

[StarStruck]

Solipsism says the only thing that exist is the self. 

No self says there is no self. 

So how can both be true?

[Arthogaan]

In the spiritual process you eliminate all thoughts and misconceptions, all misguided filters of the mind.

And you are left with something.

Some people call that No Self because there is no ego, no egoic filters, no agenda, no bias, everything is perfect.

Some people call that Self, because all you ever know is "I AM" so if there is something left it means All of That is SELF. 

I believe both camps point to the same state but they focus on different aspects of that realization.

No self guys see word "self" as indicating some part of the ego is left. But SELF campus means "self" in a brand new way. Pure self.

[Javfly33]

23 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

Solipsism says the only thing that exist is the Self. 

No self says there is no self. 

So how can both be true?

The caps make all the difference ?

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

45 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

So how can both be true?

Neither are (absolutely) true. The only true thing is truth itself... and it's beyond words.

[Someone here]

6 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Neither are (absolutely) true. The only true thing is truth itself... and it's beyond words.

This .

[StarStruck]

2 hours ago, Benton said:

@StarStruck no self refers to whatever you imagining yourself to be not being your true identity. Solipsism in this context refers to You. Which the real You is absolutely everything.  Including nothing. 
This moment is an infinite singularity.

So no self just means not ego. There is still a Self. It rather have been called no ego which is less confusing. 
 

[Breakingthewall]

3 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Solipsism says the only thing that exist is the self. 

No self says there is no self. 

So how can both be true?

Solipsism is something very complex and I would say that it is wrong. it says that your direct experience, the now, is infinite. has no limit. you will always be in your direct experience. the second is true, you will always be in your direct experience. but the first is a lie. your direct experience is limited. reality is infinite and eternal. all that can be, is. where is all that? I only see a phone. where are the elephants, and the aliens? I do not see them. If there were no limits, I would see them.

my current experience is a limiter, is to be blind to everything but this phone. if I remove the limiter, my experience expands and encompasses everything, the absolute infinity. Here is something extremely difficult to understand: if reality is infinite, and this is a fragment of reality, is it finite? no, it is infinite too. it does not have an end. if this now expands to infinity, it will still be this experience. It will always be me now. So, if I talk to you, and I perceive myself as infinite, my conclusion is: you are not real and you are not having direct experience. mistake. Bad interpretation. I don't care if you're AWAKE or if you dance with alien 8. It's a finite interpretation of the infinity

Edited June 21, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[StarStruck]

@Breakingthewall so everything is an infinite experiences but we cap it with our direct exp so we can remain sane. 

[Hojo]

The only reason you know you have a self is because you can self reference. If you can't you don't exist. Only humans can self reference on the planet all the other animals are just being they don't know they exist.

The thing humans use to self reference is an algorithm and isn't really them and dosent actually exist outside akashic records

Edited June 21, 2023 by Hojo

[Breakingthewall]

24 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

@Breakingthewall so everything is an infinite experiences but we cap it with our direct exp so we can remain sane. 

if our direct experience were unlimited, there would be no form. It would be absolute, it would be nothing. No thing. there would be no experience. reality wants to be, experienced, and wants to do it to the fullest, it's it's nature. its possibilities are infinite since the non-form is potential without limit. then it limits itself in one way, and then in another. after? here is the question. after and before overlap. the multiple forms that the formless infinity creates by being them, happen simultaneously, since time is a creation. infinity has no limits and you can be whatever you want as many times as you want. in conclusion, I am infinity, and so are you

Edited June 21, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

@Breakingthewall

Newsflash: "Finite" and "infinite" are... waaaaait for it... mental concepts. (Didn't see that one coming, did you? )

Think about it. Reality is what you perceive; whatever you don't perceive doesn't exist. And by that I don't mean "it exists in a realm called nonexistence" - no. Non-existence does not exist either. So the whole question of "where is all the stuff that I don't perceive" becomes utterly moot and meaningless. There is literally nothing outside of your "limited" perception. Where should it be? And if there's nothing beyond your so-called limits, then do those limits even exist?

All that can exist does exist in the here and now.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Bazooka Jesus

[Soul Flight]

@StarStruck Why are you combining two paradoxes and expecting each to be true? Do you have two gurus and each is making a different claim? You can also combine two fundamentalist religions and then ask us, "How can both be true?"

Your assertions may be sequential to enlightenment. If you are a guru, you might first tell your students it is all solipsism and the only certainty is the self. Once the students accept this premise and once they are ready for the next step, the guru tells them "there is no self."

Hinduism claims Vishnu is dreaming all realities and is every person in the dreams and realities. Each person can pretend it is all "simulation theory" and they are each playing their own video game or in their own personal virtual reality. But they are each Vishnu, and eventually Vishnu realizes there is no self. All dualities are reduced to the unity. And maybe then Shiva destroys everything and it starts all over again. So each person can be solipsistic but they are each Vishnu. 

There might be different kinds of solipsism. One type is you are the only true self and you are in a Truman Show virtual reality. But even here there could be a base reality where it still all reduces to Vishnu dreaming. The other type of solipsism is we are all here having a solipsistic existence because we are all the same self or Vishnu. Our self is an illusion. We are not who we think we are. But it might be wise just to have fun and enjoy the ride.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Soul Flight
shiva

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

@Breakingthewall

Newsflash: "Finite" and "infinite" are... waaaaait for it... mental concepts. (Didn't see that one coming, did you? )

Think about it. Reality is what you perceive; whatever you don't perceive doesn't exist. And by that I don't mean "it exists in a realm called nonexistence" - no. Non-existence does not exist either. So the whole question of "where is all the stuff that I don't perceive" becomes utterly moot and meaningless. There is literally nothing outside of your "limited" perception. Where should it be? And if there's nothing beyond your so-called limits, then do those limits even exist?

All that can exist does exist in the here and now.

Yes, i Know and understand that reasoning. The reality is this, the now. everything else is imaginary. but that does not mean that it does not exist. all it means is that reality is my direct experience, and I can't be sure of anything else, but I can't be sure that it doesn't exist either. first-order reality is this, this experience. the rest is speculation, kingdom of the mental. does this mean false? No. means not provable. but it can be proved logically. easily. If there are no limits, where are the elephants now? there must be infinitely many elephants right now, if there aren't, then there is a limitation. 

the point is that our direct experience is a mirage. absolute reality is what direct experience is under the surface, not what it appears to be. what appears is nothing, an illusion. being is one, unfathomable and unlimited, and it is not experience, because it does not happen, it just is. This is solipsism, and it's real. 

 

Edited June 21, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[OldManCorcoran]

6 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Solipsism says the only thing that exist is the self. 

No self says there is no self. 

So how can both be true?

Well there is something irreducible and when that is coated in tonnes of layers, i.e. the way we function rn thinking we are people blah blah, that would be what we think of as I.

But, one time, only very briefly, the I portion was taken entirely out. It was like the world continued to exist in my absence. In the way YOU understand it (because having not had full ego death like this), I was still there. But in actuality, the world continued to appear but I was not there at all.

Thinking in materialist terms is actually ironically useful for insight about this sort of metaphysics:

I.e. people say there was a big bang and a bunch of matter is what that bang created (something along those lines?). Well envision this instead: Instead of the bang producing matter. It produces the color blue. The qualia of blue. And that is the ONLY (!) thing it produced. NO sentient beings, NO brains, NO matter, it JUST PRODUCED BLUE... Well, see how the existence of that blue means it must appear AS THOUGH it were seen. Even though absolutely nothing exists from that bang but blue qualia. NO witness was produced. And yet blue qualia is blue qualia and exists ONLY as a sight. And all sights cannot appear without appearing as though they are "seen".

... Like that...

[Breakingthewall]

9 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Well envision this instead: Instead of the bang producing matter. It produces the color blue. The qualia of blue. And that is the ONLY (!) thing it produced. NO sentient beings, NO brains, NO matter, it JUST PRODUCED BLUE... Well, see how the existence of that blue means it must appear AS THOUGH it were seen. Even though absolutely nothing exists from that bang but blue qualia. NO witness was produced. And yet blue qualia is blue qualia and exists ONLY as a sight. And all sights cannot appear without appearing as though they are "seen".

Well, really nothing exist if you don't perceive it. If something exists it is because you are perceiving it, this means that you are creating reality. you are the absolute, beyond any perception, and any perception only occurs within you. if there is a total ego death and there is only blue, it is still you being blue. being and perceiving are the same. The question is, where is the red when you are perceiving, or being, the blue? does not exist. okay. but in the eternity of existence, it never happened? Yes, everything has happened, infinite times. so where is it? belongs to the past. but time is not real, it is a creation. reality is infinite, now. all perceptions are now, but you choose to perceive blue and exclude red. but the red remains. out of your perception. infinite gods, but all are the same, the being, you.

 

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

If there are no limits, where are the elephants now?

Your elephants exist here and now... as a thought.

Look, it's really simple. (I know, the mind LOVES to complicate all this stuff, but bear with me...) - Reality is what you perceive. In other words, it's all the stuff that you see, hear, feel, smell, taste or register as a thought. And that is all that there is to reality. So it's not a mirage, it's not illusion, it not a dream; it is that which exists, period. And there isn't any "under the surface" stuff hidden somewhere behind the scenes; reality is one layer deep. (There is also no first or second order of reality... you either perceive something or you don't, so either it exists or it doesn't. There is nothing in between!) However, there is the totality of reality; and that totality is what people refer to as God, Consciousness, what have you.

So, is Solipsism real? Of course it is... as a thought that you perceive. But that is the only kind of reality that Solipsism can claim; it exists as a mental concept, and apart from that, it has no reality whatsoever. Just like your elephants have no reality except as a thought that is popping up right here, right now.

"But what about all the stuff that could exist but doesn't?" Well, the fact that it doesn't exist means that it couldn't exist, plain and simple. Of course, if you imagine something, that something takes on the form of a thought and that thought immediately becomes a part of reality. If you however suppose that there might be some kind of alternative version of reality which could exist instead of the version that does in fact exist, you are supposing the existence of something that is non-existent. See what I mean?

Ta-daaaaaa, as Leo would say.

Edited June 21, 2023 by Bazooka Jesus

[Moksha]

All qualia are imaginary, including the appearance of sensations and perceptions.

If it begins or ends, it isn't real.

If it moves or changes, it isn't real.

If it is separate, combinable, or divisible, it isn't real.

If it is describable or definable, it isn't real.

Reality is the absolute appearing as unreality, and essentially being beyond appearance.

[Yimpa]

The deeper you Awaken, the more obvious it will be that all concepts are imaginary. Not only are they imaginary, but they are imagined by YOU. But not the imaginary you you identify as 

[Breakingthewall]

6 minutes ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

Look, it's really simple. (I know, the mind LOVES to complicate all this stuff, but bear with me...) - Reality is what you perceive

It is not like this! Look, reality cannot have limits. It is impossible, because those limits should be something, therefore, they should be limited as well. What does this mean? infinite, total, and absolute.

reality, now, is infinite. but you are not perceiving it. Why? because YOU are a limiter. you are the act of perceiving just what you are perceiving. that is God, the will and the intelligence to create your experience. then, god is not absolute, it is relative, it is exclusive. god is imaginary! And there are infinite gods . only the absolute infinity is it real. you've seen the infinity? It is the reality that does not exclude anything, and is prior to God, intelligence and will, since it has no attribute, only one: being.

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

It is not like this! Look, reality cannot have limits.

Did I say that it does?

4 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

reality, now, is infinite. but you are not perceiving it. Why? because YOU are a limiter. you are the act of perceiving just what you are perceiving. that is God, the will and the intelligence to create your experience. then, god is not absolute, it is relative, it is exclusive. god is imaginary! And there are infinite gods . only the absolute infinity is it real. you've seen the infinity? It is the reality that does not exclude anything, and is prior to God, intelligence and will, since it has no attribute, only one: being.

 

I swear, the power of the mind to ensnare itself in endless rumination will never cease to amaze me. LOL!

Edited June 21, 2023 by Bazooka Jesus