Sam Harris's arguments against Jordan Peterson - Problems with Sam Harris

[charlie cho]

I agree, Jordan Peterson seems to try to use 'pompous' language just to seem more sophisticated to Sam Harris. No doubt Jordan Peterson has that element in him. It's obvious though he's not trying to use that kind of language to one up Sam Harris. It's just how Jordan Peterson speaks from his lectures and in his daily life, even with Joe Rogan, he speaks in abstract language.

And Sam Harris has quite a reductionist view on things. He tries to boil down the bible as if it's just fiction and nothing else. Come on! It's not that simple and reductionist! Yes, I agree it is fiction. But why has this 'fiction' become so influential? That is indeed the question. The bigger question has to be, and I feel Jordan Peterson wasn't smart enough to say this, why has the greatest novels, classics been influenced by the bible? Shakespeare is one biggest example. Martin Scorsese is one of the best examples! Scorsese references the bible constantly, terribly! He was influenced by the bible so much, basically his whole films are riddled with Jesus questions! 

And Sam Harris just cuts all of that off with. It's fiction. It hurt a lot of people. So it's bad. 

Well, you might say, why are you reductionistic on Sam Harris's view? Well, that's what he fucking did with the bible. So I'm doing the same. Don't be so angry that I'm reductionistic to Sam Harris, when he's doing that to Jordan Peterson's arguments for the bible. 

This could be said the same with Krishna's story in the Bhagavat Gita. It's fiction, of course. But why has it stood the test of time? 

We are not trying to find facts here! We are trying to find Truth! And it's so obvious Jordan Peterson understands the dichotomy differing fact vs Truth. But Sam Harris tries to show his intelligence trying to bash truth with his arrogant understanding of fact, when in truth, fiction has nothing to do with fact. Fiction is a study of Truth. However bad the fiction maybe, it is a study of Truth. And yes, many studies of history and facts has become elements of Truth. But the nature of truth is such that it's difficult to find Truth in history books. Confucius had tried to do this, but he failed utterly. And there is a reason why so many Taoists and Buddhists hated Confucius, because he utterly failed to find Truth in History and Fact. 

Jordan Peterson seems like a fool here, I understand, even like a Pompous fool. I feel that too. But let's not pretend Sam Harris isn't arrogant with his view on understanding the nature of stories and fiction. Jordan Peterson has a whole book on stories, myths, and fiction. But this isn't really what's the point. The point I'm here to make is that Jordan Peterson understands something thats True about fiction that Sam does not. It's obvious. 

I absolutely hated, or have even abhored the comments on youtube simply calling Jordan Peterson 'pompous' or is a 'sophist'! Peterson just talks that way. Watch his other lectures you df.

Edited June 15, 2023 by charlie cho

[Arthogaan]

I actually agree with Peterson here.

You can not reduce inspiration to monkeys being creative.

 

[charlie cho]

@Arthogaan Exactly, 

24 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

I actually agree with Peterson here.

You can not reduce inspiration to monkeys being creative.

 

reducing the bible with monkey's creativity... I was tremendously disappointed with Sam Harris. I always felt he was intelligent, until I just heard this sentence, it made me very sad for him. Must be hellish to live in that kind of brain, too simple and boring. 

Edited June 15, 2023 by charlie cho

[josemar]

The truth in the bible, if it exists, it's covered under so many layers of cultural and personal baggage that it's mostly invisible. This makes it increasingly easy to get lost in the weeds/fictions/stories.

Even if some more truth penetrates through the gospel of Thomas, it is not accepted by the Christians.

Much more direct containers of truth are available, from the Eastern traditions, to A course in Miracles if one prefers the language of the bible.

[Arthogaan]

6 minutes ago, josemar said:

The truth in the bible, if it exists, it's covered under so many layers of cultural and personal baggage that it's mostly invisible. This makes it increasingly easy to get lost in the weeds/fictions/stories.

Even if some more truth penetrates through the gospel of Thomas, it is not accepted by the Christians.

Much more direct containers of truth are available, from the Eastern traditions, to A course in Miracles if one prefers the language of the bible.

That is all true, but the point is that Peterson defends the fundamental idea that there can be sources of "higher" wisdom channelled from God. Which of course is unacceptable by materialistic reductionist SamHarristic wordlview.

[josemar]

14 minutes ago, Arthogaan said:

That is all true, but the point is that Peterson defends the fundamental idea that there can be sources of "higher" wisdom channelled from God. Which of course is unacceptable by materialistic reductionist SamHarristic wordlview.

"Higher" than what, direct experience?

If you haven't watched it, Lex Fridman had Sam Harris on (twice), in the second they mostly talk politics and twitter fallout, but the first is great... Sam seems to have realized no self and lives from that direct experience

 

Or this more recent video is also great.

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by josemar

[charlie cho]

@josemar What you fail to realize is you think 'fact' is Truth. 

In fact, 'fiction' can hold equally the same degree of Truth ever the same with 'fact, if not more. Often so, it holds more Truth extraordinarily easily than mere 'facts'. 

Why do you think Jesus kept talking in parables? You think he talked in parables because he has nothing else to do and just speak random fiction stories out of his hole? 

@josemar, I hope you before even beginning to think of commenting here have understood this first. Come to think of it, I don't think you at all had understood this from the start.

Edited June 15, 2023 by charlie cho

[charlie cho]

@Arthogaan sam harris does accept there is hierarchy of wisdom. 

but I dont think jordan peterson tries to argue the bible was written by God. 

peterson doesnt care if its written by flawed people even. He tries to understand why has the bible have been referenced and cited by the greatest thinkers in history. Mozart was influenced. Bach was influenced. Whether the bible was written by a criminal or a god doesnt really matter. I admire peterson much more now because he understands that doesnt matter at all. Hes simply curious why has it helped so much people to become creative loving and be unique. 

But sam harris cant even begin to process this peterson's curiosity. 

So disappointing.

I feel even readers of my post cant even understand this, except for you.