Is All Actualization About Optimizing Pleasure?

[Alex K]

I've contemplated about why do I not want to be obese and came to a conclusion that it lowers integral of my pleasure due to pain and premature death. I've read the Leo vid about happiness spectrum and wikipedia page on pleasure, some topics on heroin here.

I have an idea that maybe self actualization boils down to optimizing pleasure in terms of magnitude and sustainability.

Is that so? Pleasure is just some reaction in our brains why is it so hard to transcend? I believe enlightenment transcends pleasure chase, but is a damn hard and rare pursuit.

Why should I transcende pleasure? 

I guess pleasure centers in our brains are not really a part of ego, maybe even enlightenment won't do it?

How could I beat the pleasure chase right now? Is it a multi-year spanning delayed gratification thing? Is it even possible then?

Fullfilment = pleasure × time, isnt it?

I guess my purpose in life is to maximize pleasure. Is anything wrong with it? What can be a better alternative without arbitrary morality concerns?

Edited March 19, 2017 by Alex K

[Pav]

Not at all. Pleasure is very superficial and does not lead to any real fulfilment or happiness. 

Take a read of Maslow's Toward a Psychology of Being if you wish to learn about self-actualisation.

Once you are further down the path of psychological/spiritual development you will begin to see just how utterly laughable hedonism is.

[Loreena]

The feeling of pleasure is transient. Self-actualization is development of self, fully physically, mentally, emotionally, psychologically,socially, intellectually. You try to reach the maximum potential of self growth which is limitless and the time is too short. So you have to put a lot of effort to lift yourself out of the gunk of neuroticism you are in before it gets too late. Self-development is the only right path. It's not a destination but a process that will go on forever. Once you're halfway through the path, you'll look back and realize how many mistakes you made, how much you took for granted, how much time you wasted doing unnecessary things, how you screwed yourself up so many times and so on. You'll be careful next time around not to get into the same traps again. Your mental clarity will improve. Everything will start to fall into place and your life's trajectory will be set in the right direction. 

Seeking pleasures endlessly will get you sore and exhausted. A small pleasure here and there helps to uplift the mood but the hedonistic approach to pleasures will make you disoriented. 

Self development is key. Start right away

[Alex K]

@Loreena @Mat Pav Thanks for coming in. I am couple years into self actualizing. I feel that I have less and less neuroticism nowadays as I actively investigate my emotions, thoughts and disfunctional world views. 

I know that you would do something only if you really want it. My question is why would you want anything but pleasure?

When you say something like "Pleasure is a thin arbitrary coating on a whole rich world beneath" it sounds a bit shalow. Why is it so? What is a deep rational argument here? I agree with this pitch emotionaly and it kinda sounds true, but this is not enough to build your life around it.

So I want some explanation why not pursuing pleasure. Self actualization actualy gives you pleasure. Its just a high level learning or being or contribution pleasure according to Leo.

So my question is what is there beyond pleasure which is realistically to want or to pursue?

Why are people pursuing anything?

Self actualization looks as a highly egoic pursuit to me - someone fed you stories about how grand your life would be, your ego mindlessly bought it and went on for years without experience or understanding why is this needed.

Now I think its finally time for me to watch basic latest Leo vids on self actualization purpose)=

To start exploring the topic is to rewatch some vids I deem relevant.

https://www.actualized.org/articles/a-vision-for-the-self-actualized-life

https://www.actualized.org/articles/the-3-levels-of-personal-development-work

https://www.actualized.org/articles/low-quality-vs-high-quality-consciousness

https://www.actualized.org/articles/the-grand-model-of-psychological-evolution

https://www.actualized.org/articles/how-to-unleash-your-ambition

https://www.actualized.org/articles/paradoxes-of-personal-development

https://www.actualized.org/articles/halloween-special-2014

https://www.actualized.org/articles/understanding-the-authentic-self

https://www.actualized.org/articles/state-of-the-union-01

https://www.actualized.org/articles/staying-hungry

https://www.actualized.org/articles/personal-development-plan

https://www.actualized.org/articles/how-to-motivate-yourself

https://www.actualized.org/articles/how-to-find-your-passion

https://www.actualized.org/articles/true-vision

https://www.actualized.org/articles/dream-life

https://www.actualized.org/articles/cause-and-purpose

https://www.actualized.org/articles/what-should-i-do-with-my-life

https://www.actualized.org/articles/self-actualization

Edited March 19, 2017 by Alex K

[Loreena]

@Alex K pleasure is a psychological need. Your mind is always tricking you into believing things that are not true. 

Example

1. You eat chocolate. When you're eating it, it brings pleasure. It triggers the brain centers to make you feel good and then you want more. This is the monkey mind at work. Now you want some more chocolate. Initially it's okay. But when your need gets too strong, you over indulge leading to health problems but the damage is done before you realize the truth that too much of it(chocolate) was bad for you. This was your monkey mind fooling you all the time, just swinging your body on its whims, emotions and petty cravings without deep contemplation and rational thinking. 

Example 2

Chasing money 

You need some money to exist, survive and sustain. Beyond that the money that you earn is only a number. But because of deep social conditioning and delusions, you keep chasing money so much that you lose yourself, you lose your values, purpose, vision not realizing that the mindless chase is making you to give up everything essential in life. Again conditioned monkey mind at work making you do things that may not be really in your deeper self-interest but you do it anyway because it makes you feel so good. But where did this good feeling come from.it may not even be natural in the first place .It's not the good feeling of sex that comes naturally because of hormones. But  it maybe because society has conditioned you to feel this way, to feel good for having more. Thus as long you stay stuck in the psychologicalw gunk of your monkey mind, you get played and played and then completely fed up and frustrated and lost now that inner peace is gone as a result of being hung in a state of disorder for too long. 

When you start on the journey of self-actualization, it starts to unravel little by little and you become aware of some deeper truths, not necessarily absolute truths, but truths that tend to align you to things that are really beneficial and good for you. Once you stay on this path and experience inner peace and calm, the monkey mind finally shuts down and does not interfere with your life anymore, there is greater mental clarity on things in life and this way all your choices and decisions get optimized and streamlined to very basic, essential and genuinely good things in life. Now it's not scatter brain, it's clear brain, now its not mental fog but a clear pond. 

Your mind has been playing so many mmind games with you that you never realized that you were being fooled and played all along into a massive web of deception built on false conditioned beliefs. Once you see each game or mind trick getting unraveled, you begin to understand why you did what you did. Then it's no longer your mind controlling you with a remote button but you controlling your mind using principles of wisdom, knowledge and rationality. Now it's no longer a reaction to things but a well formed response. 

Now whether you wish to be the slave of your own foggy mind is up to you to decide. 

But if you consciously choose to bring greater awareness of truth and reality, you will get rid of that mental floss. 

Sorry for typos.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Loreena

[Alex K]

@Loreena Reading your post, I come to think that in the end it is really a game of patience. Once your current mind issue is resolved, time will surface next one for you to feel, become aware of, contemplate, act and resolve. And it does not matter what is a "kind" of issue as kinds are artificial human concepts as well. To work my friends!

[Nahm]

So many extremes here. Is it not enough to feel good for the sake of feeling good. Just enough money to survive or a slave to money? What about traveling, experiencing new things, giving and helping others? You can certainly completely be rid of monkey mind. Then what will you do for continued expansion and development? Retreats? Vacations? New hobbies? 

[Loreena]

@Nahm obviously retreats vacations and hobbies and experiencing new things are a part of the self development process as well. The point was only not to get carried away by conditioned desires and cravings of the mind that lead to a fruitless chase and a hamster on wheels existence. But there is absolutely no problem with people who are content with money and other pursuits in life that bring joy to them. If that's the case and if they aren't losing their health, they're really lucky people. 

[Alex K]

@Nahm I understand monkey mind would be always there, enlightenment is a detachement from it.

Continued expansion just for a heck of it seems to be highly self obsessed and unconcsious activity, as an addiction.

I understand that if one wants something, this is a desire. And desires bring suffering. Attaining pleasure is removing suffering, so these wants are to be got rid of.

I guess life needs to start feeling empty and rotten or I'll feel severe lack. I will contemplate it and arrive at some truth and will act on it hopefully)

[Nahm]

@Loreena I understand.  

What do you mean by luck? COuld you break that down for me like I'm 5? Always been fascinated by the minds application of luck and randomness.   You rock Loreena! 

[Alex K]

@Loreena the thing is, there is nothing obvious except our being and senses afaik - everything else needs dedicated contemplation. Otherwise, we will be lost in cul de sacs of the path.

[Loreena]

@Alex K that was so true

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Alex K said:

@Nahm I understand monkey mind would be always there, enlightenment is a detachement from it.

Continued expansion just for a heck of it seems to be highly self obsessed and unconcsious activity, as an addiction.

I understand that if one wants something, this is a desire. And desires bring suffering. Attaining pleasure is removing suffering, so these wants are to be got rid of.

I guess life needs to start feeling empty and rotten or I'll feel severe lack. I will contemplate it and arrive at some truth and will act on it hopefully)

I am curious, who you have listened to, to get the idea that your mind can not be completely turned of at will. Zero monkey mind. It does take time. 

I think you and I must have very different connotations of 'expansion'. Is yours benefitting you?

Desire does not bring suffering. Monkey mind creates attachment by repetitive worry, and thus suffering. 

When monkey mind is resolved, desire most assuredly does not equate to suffering. 

Escape the paradigm that obtaining something resolves desire and monkey mind. This will never work. Your rituals and commitment to practices resolve monkey mind. Let it be simple and apply acceptance. Do the practices, know they work for everyone without exception. It is the ego which that 'I'm the exception" traces back to. The very thing that is producing the 'me' monkey mind.

 

With all the love - life is feeling EXACTLY like what you've been eating, doing, thinking. Change those and you change how you feel.

thought, then emotion. 

 

Edited March 19, 2017 by Nahm

[Nahm]

3 hours ago, Loreena said:

@Alex K pleasure is a psychological need. Your mind is always tricking you into believing things that are not true. 

Example

1. You eat chocolate. When you're eating it, it brings pleasure. It triggers the brain centers to make you feel good and then you want more. This is the monkey mind at work. Now you want some more chocolate. Initially it's okay. But when your need gets too strong, you over indulge leading to health problems but the damage is done before you realize the truth that too much of it(chocolate) was bad for you. This was your monkey mind fooling you all the time, just swinging your body on its whims, emotions and petty cravings without deep contemplation and rational thinking. 

Example 2

Chasing money 

You need some money to exist, survive and sustain. Beyond that the money that you earn is only a number. But because of deep social conditioning and delusions, you keep chasing money so much that you lose yourself, you lose your values, purpose, vision not realizing that the mindless chase is making you to give up everything essential in life. Again conditioned monkey mind at work making you do things that may not be really in your deeper self-interest but you do it anyway because it makes you feel so good. But where did this good feeling come from.it may not even be natural in the first place .It's not the good feeling of sex that comes naturally because of hormones. But  it maybe because society has conditioned you to feel this way, to feel good for having more. Thus as long you stay stuck in the psychologicalw gunk of your monkey mind, you get played and played and then completely fed up and frustrated and lost now that inner peace is gone as a result of being hung in a state of disorder for too long. 

When you start on the journey of self-actualization, it starts to unravel little by little and you become aware of some deeper truths, not necessarily absolute truths, but truths that tend to align you to things that are really beneficial and good for you. Once you stay on this path and experience inner peace and calm, the monkey mind finally shuts down and does not interfere with your life anymore, there is greater mental clarity on things in life and this way all your choices and decisions get optimized and streamlined to very basic, essential and genuinely good things in life. Now it's not scatter brain, it's clear brain, now its not mental fog but a clear pond. 

Your mind has been playing so many mmind games with you that you never realized that you were being fooled and played all along into a massive web of deception built on false conditioned beliefs. Once you see each game or mind trick getting unraveled, you begin to understand why you did what you did. Then it's no longer your mind controlling you with a remote button but you controlling your mind using principles of wisdom, knowledge and rationality. Now it's no longer a reaction to things but a well formed response. 

Now whether you wish to be the slave of your own foggy mind is up to you to decide. 

But if you consciously choose to bring greater awareness of truth and reality, you will get rid of that mental floss. 

Sorry for typos.

Eating chocolate does not bring me pleasure. I understand it tastes good. I also understand how sugar effects my mind and mood, and so effects my life. I understand addiction and withdrawal. No thank you.

"You need some money to exist, survive and sustain. Beyond that the money that you earn is only a number" I beg to differ. Personal development, growth and expansion can be done with no money, but can be done more enjoyably and efficiently with money. Money is not bad, attitude can be bad. An attitude that money is bad, or even useless, is the justification of the monkey ind itself. It does not benefit me to assume that someone with millions of dollars is "chasing" anything at all. I find it more accurate that they learned not to chase anything, which freed them from their fears, and directly led to them doing what they loved and thus they made a lot of money. 

How can the second half of what you said be true if the first half is true?

Edited March 19, 2017 by Nahm

[Loreena]

@Nahm  you're right that desires don't bring any suffering. when we seek self-development we are seeking deeper expansion of self. This expansion is very fulfilling. However every experience in this world may not be truly self fulfilling. What about drugs. It's only an experience. What can be fulfilling about it. It's important to direct the expansion of the mind in ways that bring deeper fulfillment and no harm. 

By lucky I meant everyone doesn't feel the same way about life. Some people engage in materialistic pursuits and they're fine with it. They already have everything in life including mental peace. But for some the pursuit of pleasure and money brings fatigue and frustration. They are not mentally on it because they're doing it just for the reason that society expects them to do it. They crave more for the needs of the higher self. Their path is going to be harder because mental peace doesn't come easy and satisfying the higher is much harder than satisfying the lower self. In that sense, people who find their life enriching enough really don't feel the need to search for deeper meaning and they're lucky. They're happy as they are. 

[Nahm]

16 minutes ago, Alex K said:

@Loreena the thing is, there is nothing obvious except our being and senses afaik - everything else needs dedicated contemplation. Otherwise, we will be lost in cul de sacs of the path.

When you learn that fire burns your hand, does it not become 'obvious'. 

Is it obvious that we feel based on our attitude?

[Loreena]

11 minutes ago, Nahm said:

Eating chocolate does not bring me pleasure. I understand it tastes good. I also understand how sugar effects my mind and mood, and so effects my life. I understand addiction and withdrawal. No thank you.

"You need some money to exist, survive and sustain. Beyond that the money that you earn is only a number" I beg to differ. Personal development, grow and expansion can be done with no money, but can be done more enjoyably and efficiently with money. Money is not bad, attitude can be bad. An attitude that money is bad, or even useless, is the justification of the monkey ind itself. It does not benefit me to assume that someone with millions of dollars is "chasing" anything at all. I find it more accurate that they learned not to chase anything, which freed them from their fears, and directly led to them doing what they loved and thus they made a lot of money. 

How can the second half of what you said be true if the first half is true?

Oh no I didn't mean that way at all. 

 

3 hours ago, Loreena said:

@Alex K ons, you keep chasing money so much that you lose yourself, you lose your values, purpose, vision not realizing that the mindless chase is making you to give up everything essential in life. Again conditioned monkey mind at work making you do things that may not be really in your deeper self-interest but you do it anyway because it makes you feel so good. But where did this good feeling

You didn't focus on the above lines. It's not when pursuing something that you're genuinely passionate about and making lot of money. Who can be luckier than you in that case. It's when you give up everything for the chase because the chase the rat race gets important in your life. When you make money and it lies within your deeper self-interests its well and good, in fact much better, ridiculously good. But for others who struggle losing themselves in that struggle only to arrive at a point to know that it was just a mindless chase and they could have invested more into themselves instead of investing so much into creating something that doesn't bring them lasting peace, it's for them who will need to understand how their mental conditioning is affecting them. 

[Nahm]

Is money earned?

[Shin]

Self-Actualization is about building an ego which will be ok to be at the backseat of your life, when you'll transcend it.

You can utilize it to be hotter and more attractive, to have more healthy relationship and nice friendships, to be more wealthy and successful, but at some point you'll realize that none of that is gonna cut it.

Better realizing it sooner than later, like that you can build all the fundations of what you really need to live your purpose in life, and to maximize your capacity to impact others, through the activity you love the most.

This is in a nutshell, why self-actualizing is, it isn't about maximizing pleasure at all, pleasure will be there for sure, but a lot of struggle and hard work too, much more than what you think is necessary now.

 

[Loreena]

@Nahm nah, money rains from the skies !