Why do LGBT people go after kids?

[Scholar]

Just now, Recursoinominado said:

It was a very reasonable response. 

It was not a substantive response at all.

[Recursoinominado]

9 minutes ago, Scholar said:

It was not a substantive response at all.

It was enough.

[Jacob Morres]

18 hours ago, Roy said:

accepting them, when we clearly don't live in the 1920's anymore

Ah i see

I think a lot progress was made i do think a lot of progress can be made. I don't think cultural acceptance is here yet 

Gallup poll 2022 says that 30% of people don't support gay marriage in America. Now that's crazyy

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1651/gay-lesbian-rights.aspx

And acceptance just started very recently, maybe in the last 10 years. Things like internalized homophobia, that takes a long while for everyone to be on board. It doesn't heal so quick

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Jacob Morres

[Scholar]

30 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Historically speaking, ostracization and shaming are the least violent way of cultural enforciment. 

Picture what horrors conservatives did to non-heterossexual people until it was socially reprehensible, very recently.

You should notice how, when I criticized your supposed ingroup, the first thing you did was point out the evil of your opposed outgroup, as if I was playing a game of comparing these two groups. I was giving an objective description of the dynamics underlying what I believe are current social motions. You interpreted as me trying to make out progressives as worse than conservatives, which really is a projection of your own paradigm.

 

The crybullies of today were the executioners of yesterday. The dynamics underlying current progressive culture are not the same as the dynamics which spawn this progressive motion.

An example of actual progressives today are radical vegans who compare and equivocate the holocaust of the jews and the slavery of black people to the holocaust and slavery of the animals. They are tremendously unpopular and offensive to current culture. That's how you know they are genuinely progressive. That's the motion, the genuine spirit of progressivism. Which, to be precise, is not to be confused with stages of spiral dynamics. You will most likely notice in yourself the great resistance to this idea, and if you were wise, you would realize that you are the conservative. And that really, who and who is not conservative is completely relative.

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Scholar

[Scholar]

49 minutes ago, Recursoinominado said:

Picture what horrors conservatives did to non-heterossexual people until it was socially reprehensible, very recently.

I would ask you to picture what horrors over 98% of progressives do today to individuals of other species, but I don't need to:

 

 

Morally evolved individuals might recoil in horror at your silence on the greatest holocaust in the history of mankind. The fact that you would not be protesting this with the greatest moral urgency until an end was put to it. That you would just watch in silence as trillions of individuals have to suffer intolerable torture for the ignorance of mankind, for your own ignorance.

Hopefully they will be wise enough to realize that they cannot judge you for your ignorance, because that would mean they would become blind to their own evil and selfishness, just as you have become blind to it.

Edited June 10, 2023 by Scholar

[Boethius]

I am hopeful there is a sensible middle ground to be found on this issue. Perhaps it will help to bring this from the abstract into the concrete.... So to what degree do people support the following actions that a school might take:

• in elementary school, allowing a gay/lesbian teacher to talk openly about their spouse
• in elementary school, reading a book about a child that has two mommies or two daddies
• in elementary school, inviting a drag queen to read a book to children
• in elementary school, providing a lesson on gender identity and inviting students to share their pronouns
• in middle school, teaching about anti-bullying policies (including ones protecting sexual and gender minorities)
• in middle school, making books available to students on queer people, possibly containing profanity and mild descriptions of sex
• in middle school, inviting students to participate in school-led pride events
• in high school, teaching about gay sex and HIV prevention in sex ed
• in high school, teaching about the civil rights movement for the LGBTQ community

Edited June 11, 2023 by Boethius

[BuddhistLover]

I think it comes down to the individual understanding themselves and who they are. Once you know who you are as a person, then you really don't need an outside entity to validate your reality. Once you know they way you are, and how your whole human body apparatus functions, then it won't really make a big difference what the societal sort of movements are saying about you. I really feel like to me once I understand myself, I'm confident in that knowledge and the outside views of me don't change who I am as a person. It really comes down to understanding whether or not you are a certain way. Once LGBTQ people know they're LGBTQ, that's what they are as people. I'm going to be accepting of that either way, that's not saying I am because I know I'm not. I'm just saying that I'm okay with them in who they are as I'm not really going to bring it up to anyone. 

[Jacob Morres]

@Boethius ? sheesh good post 

 

On top of that, gave me a great idea on how to turn theory into practice ?

[Danioover9000]

@Roy

On 2023-06-09 at 6:33 AM, Roy said:

Look man the Left already won the culture war, and that's a good thing! People are just tired of hearing about LGBTQIA+ACBDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ123456789 stuff non-stop every day all year round. They want their kids to have a good time at school and learn useful things that will help them in the real world getting a career when they grow up, not have their minds filled with a bunch of complicated identity topics and sexual orientations.

Veterans and soldiers get a day of celebration, and pride stuff lasts an entire month. Go ponder that when you can calm down and stop casting aspersions at people on the internet because you get hard from being righteous. (I'm bi-sexual by the way).

Most people don't really care what other people like to do in the bedroom or how they dress up. They are however annoyed at how much cultural/media bandwidth it takes up though with people somehow having so much free time they NEED to parade and broadcast to the world, "I prefer dick in my ass" or "I like to cross-dress and need EVERYBODY to see my outfit!".

Activists won, the left won, the culture war was won 5+ years ago. Even with clown-lord himself Donald Trump as president for 4 years the Left STILL won. If that isn't obvious I don't know what to tell you. I don't even know what progressives like you are still so fucking mad about. If it was possible we could harness your endless rage as an infinite source of renewable energy.

Can you imagine the absurdity if straight men decided to parade and demand attentive concessions so they could have time to say how much they loved women? Or even just a nuclear family pride month? People would lose their fucking minds.

Here is what the majority of people actually think about this stuff because they just want to get on with their lives;

 

 

   This is quite accurate bro. At this point it's too culture warfare and polarizing to engage in, both sides are guilty of their accusations of the other. On average the right wing takes the cake, but on intensity and exceptional evil the left wing takes the cake but much less average committed. Social media has made people more crazy over  time too, so we have to add another distinction of internet variant politics vs real world politics.

[hoodrow trillson]

On 6/10/2023 at 4:14 PM, Scholar said:

It was not a substantive response at all.

You got owned dude.

Succinctly at that.

[Danioover9000]

@Roy

On 2023-06-10 at 1:34 AM, Roy said:

People can still silently or vocally aspouse their opinion. We live in the free(ish) world. You will NEVER eradicate racism/phobia completely, and the tools and policies you'd need to implement to do so would lead to a nightmarish reality, that thankfully we will never live in.

   Although I wish and have faith one day we'll get past racism/nationalism/ethnocentrism and other phobias, hopefully not in the ways you imagine.

On 2023-06-10 at 1:55 AM, Roy said:

I'm not familiar with this case, but just reading this sentence and knowing the social climate we are currently in I highly doubt is was just an innocent coincidence from clueless decision makers in the company, but a political brand decision from Hasbro to insulate themselves from the Progressive mob that could attack their name and therefore hurt their profits from negative PR.

Nothing is innocuous, don't pretend to be deliberately naïve. You aren't stupid.

While I'm sure they aren't being explicit about it or it being in a curriculum, the topic is needlessly exposed to kids in education (among other things). Obviously (being kids) they will ask questions. If they don't get those answers from the teachers (which I'm sure indulge them sometimes), they will figure out the answers from somewhere. All complicated and mostly needless information for those of such a young age. It's just a different flavor of the same kind of food of ideology, like religious conservativism.

   True again, it's mostly ideologically driven that little is considered of the costs and tradeoffs.

On 2023-06-10 at 3:00 AM, Roy said:

You are making assumptions about me and misinterpreted just about everything I posted. Not a big deal, just letting you know.

I never said I dislike LGBTQ, or pride month, or that there "shouldn't" be gay sex wtf?

I just think it's annoying and imposing how much it's advertised, and the insane amount of bandwidth it takes up in our culture. It's like trying to watch YouTube without an adblocker. Just endless pop-ups and ad's before, during and after every god damn video. People just can't shut the fuck up about their identity and how everybody still isn't accepting them, when we clearly don't live in the 1920's anymore.

The planet is literally on fire at increasing amounts every year now and instead of mobilizing everyone for an environmental war we should be fighting, we need to hear about genitals constantly. It feels like a collective insanity.

I guess something has to fill the void though in the never ending ideology battle to win the minds of the people.

   So true. Also so true on the veteran's day and remembrance day, we only have to celebrate one day, and give a 1 minute silence for those 100s of millions of lives lost in WW1 and 2, yet a WHOLE MONTH get's into LGBTQ/pride month stuff, just weird imbalance in the ratio of celebrations and remembrance days.

[Danioover9000]

@hoodrow trillson

I don't think so, that this post:

@Scholar

On 2023-06-10 at 8:38 PM, Scholar said:

I think it's a kind of systemic issue resulting from the current manifestation of progressive ideology. I think a lot of people misdiagnose the core of the issue here. It is not that most progressives necessarily support the more extreme ideas on the left, rather if you are part of the progressive majority, you are not capable of ever criticizing any progressive ideas, in fear of being identified as a bigot.

In my eyes this dynamic stems from the way current progressive culture is enforced, which is by means of social ostracization and shaming, rather than through the expansion of empathy and reason. As a side note: That particular change in enforcement mechanisms I believe stems from the emergent dynamics of attention-maximizing social media algorithms.

 

Authentic progress in the long term cannot be sustained through social ostracization and shaming. There is a simple reason for this: With social ostracization and shaming, ideological adherence is enforced by means of fear, rather than authentic change, expansion of consciousness and understanding. Social ostracization and shaming leads to lack of reasoning capacities, due to a self-preservation dynamic. If I am a progressive, and I question the progressive agenda, I run risk of being ostracized, of suddenly being defined as an outside. This fear will prevent me from truly engaging with any of these topics rationally, because rationality is dangerous. Why is rationality dangerous? Being the process of reasoning requires you to make mistakes, to come to false conclusions. The current form of progressivism does not allow for that type of false conclusion to occur without the reasoner running risk of being framed as an outsider (transphobe, nazi, bigot etc.).

When the ignorant become evil, then ignorance becomes evil. And because reasoning will always reveal ignorance, reasoning is shut off, replaced by mindless adherence to the ideology. This is a stage a blue dynamic, a fear/shame based system, and naturally has the same limitations. It is susceptible to infighting and fragmentation, because different conclusion lead to mutual social ostracization and othering.

But more importantly, new adherers of the ideology tend to not have achieved the growth necessary to come to those conclusions themselves (through an expansion of empathy, understanding and consciousness), but rather have been indoctrinated into.

Because progressive ideology is enforced through group identities, meaning forced adherence to group norms through the threat of ostracization, an interesting runaway effect occurs. In contrast to say islamic ideology, which is designed to remain constant over time, progressive ideology fundamentally seeks expansion and change. In it's current form, it seeks to identify all bigotry and remove it from the world. The idea is: Bigotry is everywhere, we are susceptible to be unaware of our own bigotry, and anyone who is a bigot, even due to lack of awareness, is evil.

This simple ideological structure means any new progressive idea cannot be challenged by individuals identifying with the group, in fear of being bigotted in an unexpected way and therefore not being any different from the people who the group condemns as evil and regressive

This leads to individuals not actually being able to criticize the more extreme ideas on fear of ostracization and shaming, in addition to people no longer being aware of why they hold certain ideological positions, because they are not given enough time to authentically explore them, which inevitably leads to mistakes, which by current progressive ideology would result in your being designated an outsider/evil.

 

Progressives have an existential fear rooted in their identity, which is shaped by their ingroup: "Oh my god, what if I say something bigotted?"

If you negate a progressive idea, you very well might be revealed as a bigot. And this does not even need to be enforced through the group. Because each individual, as a cultural norm of the group, is engaging in the constant shaming and evil-making of the even the most mundane ignorance of others, the stakes are inherently existential. If you ever turn out to be bigotted, the hatred and disgust you have for so long pointed outwardly towards others, will suddenly be turned inward. This is a hallmark of stage blue dynamics, which are dominant in current progressive culture.

Of course, in the long term this type of system is unsustainable, because individuals fundamentally do not know why they believe in the things they do, making the system fall apart when cultural enforcement ceases, causing a certain level of regression. To the individual, this will be experienced as freeing, not because progressive ideals are all wrong, but because the means by which they were upheld in that individual mind were through shackles, through fear and shame, rather than through understanding, empathy and consciousness.

 

To the conservative, what is worrisome is not the actual stance of the majority of progressives, but rather the fact that the majority of progressives is incapable of silencing or disagreeing with the more extreme permutations of their ideology.

 

 

Fundamentally, when you point your fingers at the evil of others, you will make yourself blind to your own evil, because you will not be able to tolerate your own judgement.

   Got dismantled by such a little post like this:

@Recursoinominado

On 2023-06-10 at 8:59 PM, Recursoinominado said:

Historically speaking, ostracization and shaming are the least violent way of cultural enforciment. 

Picture what horrors conservatives did to non-heterossexual people until it was socially reprehensible, very recently.

That is so naive, it is cute.

   Is an oversimplification. He has not offered any rebuttal or retorts back, because if he did he knew he'd be so wrong it's not funny. @Scholar's basic argumentation was towards excesses and limits of left wing ideology and limits of stage green's deep fear of bigotry. @Recursoinominado's post was just a reframe and straw manning towards a moot and bailey fallacy: by retreating into a claim of when conservatives were demonizing non-heterosexuals when in fact @Scholar's main argument had little to do with conservatives demonizing non-heterosexuals, but on progressive/socialist ideology and indoctrination going wrong, so he's right in calling @Recursoinominado immature not to directly address his case instead of relying on fallacies and red herrings to distract from the main argument point: When progressive ideology becomes too much, instead of trying to make the argument about bad conservative behaviors and several other red herrings.

[Recursoinominado]

25 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   Got dismantled by such a little post like this:

Is not the size that matters

[Jacob Morres]

On 6/10/2023 at 2:38 PM, Scholar said:

To the conservative, what is worrisome is not the actual stance of the majority of progressives, but rather the fact that the majority of progressives is incapable of silencing or disagreeing with the more extreme permutations of their ideology

I agree with that post but not this part, that it's the pov of the conservative. Ur like critiquing progressives from above but 

Many conservatives are against the movement as a whole, they'll point to one part of the movement as evidence of the movement being negative as a whole. Basically throwing the baby out with the bath water, lacking nuance, like OPs posts. It's like a blue vs yellow critique I guess 

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Jacob Morres

[Danioover9000]

@Scholar

On 2023-06-10 at 9:14 PM, Scholar said:

It was not a substantive response at all.

   This guy has a point about this progressive and socialistic ideology. The fact none of you are willing to engage with his points show you're not only able to defend your views, but you're afraid of being called a bigot even in a forum that doesn't support left wing ideologies. You're not even in Twitter or Tik Tok or whatever crazy left leaning forum, you're in a mostly ideology neutral zone, yet you can't critique you're own ideology? WAF!

   GG @Scholar, top ten best users here! 

[Danioover9000]

@Jacob Morres

8 hours ago, Jacob Morres said:

I agree with that post but not this part, that it's the pov of the conservative. Ur like critiquing progressives from above but 

Many conservatives are against the movement as a whole, they'll point to one part of the movement as evidence of the movement being negative as a whole. Basically throwing the baby out with the bath water, lacking nuance, like OPs posts. It's like a blue vs yellow critique I guess 

 

   Some conservatives are against the whole movement, but some are also not as against them within reason, and some would like to see progressives and socialists 'tidy their own house' handle their own extremists in their own movement. Can't speak totally for @StarStruck's ranting posts for his many straw mans and bad faith tactics, but he has a point about this ideology being not as challenged within their own. If you are respectable to yourself, and respectable and honest to yourself and your ideology, you know you have to clean house.

[Jacob Morres]

@Danioover9000

I'd love to see a healthy, nuanced example of a conservative saying that tbh. I've not seen that type of critique yet. 

Ben Shapiro, classic popular conservative, for example has a lot of bigoted takes mixed in. I'm not sure how far you can get with that ideology

https://glaad.org/gap/ben-shapiro/

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by Jacob Morres

[Danioover9000]

@Jacob Morres

1 hour ago, Jacob Morres said:

@Danioover9000

I'd love to see a healthy, nuanced example of a conservative saying that tbh. I've not seen that type of critique yet. 

Ben Shapiro, classic popular conservative, for example has a lot of bigoted takes mixed in. I'm not sure how far you can get with that ideology

https://glaad.org/gap/ben-shapiro/

 

   I know a few conservatives with more nuanced takes and more honor than Ben Shapiro and these bunch of MAGA, QUANON ALT RIGHT ideologues, but they're not out there busy being public figures and arguing all day with internet dip shits left leaning progressive and socialist bigots or right leaning, they're working in their real world jobs and taking care of their own civic duties in society and taking care of themselves and their family more responsibly than social media influencers ever will and these shill internet based political talking heads. These people I've known will put majority of online to SHAME.

   Unfortunately, they're in the vocal minority so all you'll mostly get is BS traffic noise with little honor and honest signal online. 

[Jacob Morres]

@Danioover9000 yeah could see that. Unfortunately what gets viral are toxic versions of a pov, even for the left. Which is what op is reacting to actually 

Edited June 13, 2023 by Jacob Morres

[Roy]

Seems Monty Python were ahead of their time once again.