Is it worth it to use koans as an object of meditation?

[effortlesslumen]

For example:

Two hands clap and there is a sound. What is the sound of one hand? (隻手声あり、その声を聞け)

— Hakuin Ekaku

[Vibroverse]

I think it can help in that it might guide you to the ineffable through, in a sense, tricking your mind. And now imagine a circular triangle. 

[effortlesslumen]

So similar to the process of neti neti where every aspect of your ego gets short circuited until you become "nothingness".  Hmm interesting. I hoped someone here maybe has some direct experience with this kind of technique. 

[WeCome1]

Depends on what you mean by "meditation", as well as on what your goal is.

For example, if you are talking about the "classic" dhyana meditation common in various yogas, tantras, branches of Buddhism and Zen - then there for sure are much less conceptual and therefore more practical objects of meditation. The complex conceptual nature of a koan will engage your mind instead of the parasympathetic system which is what you want. You are better off with tried and true objects like breath, mantra, ideation or the self.

If, on the other hand, by "meditation" you mean contemplation, then "classic" zen koans are too archaic for our modern minds and don't engage us nearly enough, in my opinion. However, look at what the non-duality speakers are doing sometimes. They use communication not to communicate concepts which their audience craves - but rather as a strategic tool that bypasses and undermines audience's conceptual thinking, to the point that their conceptualizing might stop, and a bigger truth is revealed holistically. Which is not unlike what a classic koan is intended to achieve, right?

Exhibit A: Notice, how Jim subverts and undermines all attempts at conceptual understanding and pulls the rug from under the interviewer's mind time and time again. He continues the conversation - but refuses to give the interviewer one bit of meaningful information to stand on. It's really excruciating.

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by WeCome1

[effortlesslumen]

Then i would call  classic zen koans not archaic but effective, because it leaves less room for debating and more for realization. 

I would rather use it as a little exercise during small time windows, than a main practice.  Contemplating it again and again.

Edited June 7, 2023 by effortlesslumen

[WeCome1]

Once again, a thing is only "effective" insofar as it helps you achieve what you want to achieve. So what is it?

[effortlesslumen]

Unknown. It was a mistake to put someone elses direct experience before my own.

[tlowedajuicemayne]

Yes! 

I am working with my first koan now and have been working on it for the last 2 years. I highly highly HIGHLY recommend working with a zen teacher or priest who can make sure you don't stray too far but working with Mu has changed my life entirely. I recommend it if you've spent some years practicing with the breath or some sort of meditation technique. Koans require a ton of concentration ability so you need to build that up first. 

Good luck! 

[Moksha]

As I see it, by deepening order of realization:

• Physical yoga (hatha)
• Mantras
• Koans
• Contemplation
• Silent meditation
• Direct inquiry

[Michal__]

Yes. If you do it properly you will probably get into more interesting states than if you just watched your breath for example.

[Rafael Thundercat]

Where where the zen koans before your birth? Where did you learn Zen Koans? Even the capacity to understand a Zen Koan is taken for granted.