How precisely can you quantify God's will?

[michaelcycle00]

"Everything is God's will".

Ok, what is "God's will" in practical terms? How can you measure it? What's the closest you can get to understanding it?

See, if none of the above questions can be answered then that sentence is void of any useful meaning. God is infinite, so anything you can or cannot conceive you could call "God's will", leaving us nowhere.

[Holykael]

In practical terms. Whatever happens to the detail is god's will. It's a sovereign construction, nothing can happen spontaneously without being willed by god. God has to construct absolutely everything and it takes no effort

[WeCome1]

"God's will" is an anthropomorphic projection, as are most of the things people claim about God.

Listen. Really. Just take a moment and consider carefully the MEANING of the word "Absolute", and its IMPLICATIONS. I have no intention of filling your mind with more concepts, so just think about it yourself a bit. "Absolute" means "nothing above/other than it", "one without the other" (to the point that even one is one too many), "THE thing in itself".

So, what "will" can there possibly be within the thing that is one and total? You hear all those stories about "Leo being aware of how exactly he is constructing every pube on his balls in real time through the sheer might of his cosmic godly intellect", or Holykael bitching about his life having been "meticulously handcrafted" by God (as if it was some Apple Watch, as described by Jony Ive)... - but you are getting the wrong impression. The Absolute is so beyond all "wills" and all "constructing" that it isn't even funny. It just IS, as it is, because it couldn't possibly be any other way, because there are no other ways the one and only total thing could be. It's INVARIANT and inevitable.

But, relatively speaking, we can of course say all we want and argue either way. Yes, everything does happen in some particular way, so it's "God's will" - I mean, who else's will would it be. But also no, everything happens in the only possible way, so there isn't room for the concept of "God's will". The answer to this dilemma is that you don't really need the answer, it does nothing for you besides falsely satisfying your conceptual curiosity. And this is true for all those questions about "How reality is? and How does it work?.." It works in mysterious ways, and people are really better off just leaving it at that. The only relevant questions are about what and how should one do to prepare one's consciousness to BE (one with?..) this Absolute. This will provide satisfaction.

Edited June 7, 2023 by WeCome1

[Yimpa]

3 hours ago, michaelcycle00 said:

God is infinite, so anything you can or cannot conceive you could call "God's will", leaving us nowhere.

And everywhere 

[Moksha]

God's will is absolute and free. Agency is only an appearance within the dream. God cranks the cosmic jack-in-the-box, enjoying its music in anticipation of the puppet awakening. With each crank, the spring winds tighter and the pressure on the puppet hidden within increases, until finally the latch is released and puppet springs free.

How nihilistic to believe that the puppet is at the mercy of the absolute, until it is realized that with every turn, the absolute within the puppet is preparing for freedom. Every spiritual teaching, every meditation practice, and every realization is another turn of the crank. If you want release from the suffocating entrapment of the box, pray to god for the cranking to continue.

 

[Yimpa]

@Moksha Beautiful!

Also, that clown is juggling like Mr. Leo! 

[Leo Gura]

You don't need to quantify it and obviously God is beyond quantity.

What you see right now IS God's Will. You're always looking at it. Everything you see is it. That tree, that dog, that coffee table, that car.

Which is why it's so hard to notice.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Which is why it's so hard to notice.

Can’t be walking around hard all the time, Leo 

[Kshantivadin]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

What you see right now IS God's Will. You're always looking at it. Everything you see is it. That tree, that dog, that coffee table, that car.

Why? why? why?

[UnlovingGod]

22 minutes ago, Kshantivadin said:

Why? why? why?

God moves in mysterious ways.

All he does is to help you to awaken to himself, love, counciousness, infinity and truth.

Why his Will is exactly as it is, with the human brain it isn´t in any way rational and comprehensible. Think of your cat or dog looking at you asking themselves, why the fuck you are using your phone to share memes, it doesn´t make sense, but for humans it may make sense. God is in another ballpark of intelligence, it´s not even the same goddamn sports.

The wisest move is to get to the point to understand God in everso more depth and stop questioning him and moreso question yourself, why you need a "why?".

Of course in high level states of counciousness it all makes sense why the things are as they are, but I still go to university and socialize for example, it´s not practical there to know, why I have to get up at 6 in the morning, I just know, that god is perfect and then in the trips, meditation etc. I can still try to fathom God´s Will.

There is absolute and relative knowledge. I can be aware of the absolute and don´t know the relative.

Edited June 7, 2023 by UnlovingGod

[puporing]

"This God over here" wills you to be in "heaven" , dunno about the "other Gods".

[michaelcycle00]

22 hours ago, Holykael said:

In practical terms. Whatever happens to the detail is god's will. It's a sovereign construction, nothing can happen spontaneously without being willed by god. God has to construct absolutely everything and it takes no effort

No, I get that part. I'm asking why and what, not how.

@WeCome1 So you believe everything is predetermined even from the Absolute perspective? As such, every possibility is actualized and God is, let's say "currently" just joyriding through my perspective but in reality, there's an infinite happening of everything outside of time. Good and bad, correct?

@Moksha Which puppet are we referring to? Because there are about 8 billion of them on this Earth alone, and a handful of them are surely at the mercy of the Absolute. A lot of you talk as if people on their deathbeds suddenly become extremely wise and knowledgeable when in reality most die utter idiots. Now what happens to their experience afterwards one can only guess...

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You don't need to quantify it and obviously God is beyond quantity.

What you see right now IS God's Will. You're always looking at it. Everything you see is it. That tree, that dog, that coffee table, that car.

Which is why it's so hard to notice.

So it just "is", end? No further understanding?

11 hours ago, UnlovingGod said:

Why his Will is exactly as it is, with the human brain it isn´t in any way rational and comprehensible. Think of your cat or dog looking at you asking themselves, why the fuck you are using your phone to share memes, it doesn´t make sense, but for humans it may make sense. God is in another ballpark of intelligence, it´s not even the same goddamn sports.

Yeah, it's sad af in my opinion. Because a much higher intelligence won't be considerate to the well-being of a much lower one. Think for once about us and ants, we just step over them without hesitation. We think it's nothing, and as such, we meet the same fate but even worse because the difference between us and God is infinitely bigger, which allows the most heinous and horrific acts to be committed against one another as if it's nothing...

As above, so below.

[michaelcycle00]

7 hours ago, puporing said:

"This God over here" wills you to be in "heaven" , dunno about the "other Gods".

I'm not following. 

[puporing]

1 hour ago, michaelcycle00 said:

I'm not following. 

Consider first that an infinite mind can have distinctly different wills, perhaps even direct opposite ones.

Consider also that perfect Love gives you absolute freewill to do/be what you wish.

The God that I "carry in me" that I have awakened to wills heaven here and/or in "spirit world". But what is meant by "heaven"? Something like a state of oneness and perfect Love, maximal consciousness.

That doesn't mean I immediately accepted my awakenings, because like you I have been living in a different kind of state, it took me some time to more fully accept.

But like I said, consider the first two possibilities then you might be open to considering the third assertion as "will of God".

Edited June 8, 2023 by puporing

[WeCome1]

5 hours ago, michaelcycle00 said:

@WeCome1 So you believe everything is predetermined even from the Absolute perspective?

That is not what I said. It's "worse than that", in a way: I believe, it is completely unknowable, in the absolute sense, whether things are predetermined, or spontaneous, or neither, or both.

The Absolute is a tricky thing, none of our dualistic thinking applies to it. It might sound like I'm trying to play some word games with you to obfuscate my own ignorance or something - but I assure you it's nothing like that, I'm trying to be sincere. BUT. Any particular way you try to describe a thing which is ONE without the opposite - is not it.

You try to frame God as having absolute agency a.k.a. "free will" - but what would God possibly DO with it? Would it move somewhere? - there is no somewhere else. Would it change shape? - it has no shape, or has all of them, or both, or neither... Would it produce something out of nothing? - he already includes all of that, while simultaneously being nothing whatsoever...

You try the opposite, claiming that God does not have any agency - tough tits: since it's, again, ONE without the other - its state and behavior cannot possibly be determined or pre-determined by something else - there isn't anything else.

You could then start grasping at conceptual straws like "God is SPONTANEOUS", or "God is static and eternal", or "God is BOTH free and predetermined", or "NEITHER free nor predetermined" - but it doesn't really help you much, does it?.. Asking if Absolute has agency is similar to asking "can space move?" (I mean the whole infinite 3D space, let's assume for the sake of argument that it exists in the naïve materialistic sense) - where would it move? The concept of "movement" itself is a function that is only possible within space. So your best answer is realizing the whole question about "moving space" was absurd in the first place.

As are all other questions aimed at understanding the Absolute or any of its aspects. Your understanding will break down at the singularity. But, luckily, there are other ways of "knowing" IT.

Edited June 8, 2023 by WeCome1

[Moksha]

4 hours ago, michaelcycle00 said:

Which puppet are we referring to? Because there are about 8 billion of them on this Earth alone, and a handful of them are surely at the mercy of the Absolute. A lot of you talk as if people on their deathbeds suddenly become extremely wise and knowledgeable when in reality most die utter idiots. Now what happens to their experience afterwards one can only guess...

The essence of all 8 billion puppets is the absolute, and it is inevitably at the mercy of itself. How many puppets jump out of the box on the first crank? It takes tremendous pressure before the coil has collected enough suffering to spring.

As you say, the majority will remain trapped within their conceptual box their entire lives. Some suffer less, some more, but a few leverage their suffering to break free from their false identity and become lucid within the dream.

Reincarnation is an idea that the psyche continues its journey through the cosmos until it's ready to surrender. Certainly possible within relative reality, but it's only a belief.

People tend to think of enlightenment as binary, but there are gradual degrees of freedom within the dream. It's more like a slow-motion movie, where light seeps through the barest crack in the box, as the crank continues turning, and the puppet slowly emerges until it is entirely free. The deeper the realization and integration, the less you suffocate and the more free you become.

Eventually in the perpetual state, the puppet wakes up, leaves the box, and is reunited with its creator, which is itself.

Blue Fairy: Prove yourself brave,
truthful, and unselfish,
and someday you will be a real boy.

*whispered* Awake, Pinocchio.
Awake.

*Pinocchio wakes up as a real boy*

[Breakingthewall]

39 minutes ago, Moksha said:

As you say, the majority will remain trapped within their conceptual box their entire lives. Some suffer less, some more, but a few leverage their suffering to break free from their false identity and become lucid within the dream

What do you think about educating children in the awakening? mistake or evolution? It would be educating in not fear. total acceptance, and later, transcendence. but I don't know what result it would have

[Moksha]

35 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

What do you think about educating children in the awakening? mistake or evolution? It would be educating in not fear. total acceptance, and later, transcendence. but I don't know what result it would have

Some cultures have incorporated spiritual growth as endemic to education, but the cultures themselves have been at the mercy of their collective conditioning. For example, India has been fecund with mystical insights for millennia, but is also fettered by archaic and egoic social structures like the caste system.

Cultures evolve just as individuals do. I'm optimistic that eventually humanity will prioritize direct realization above other imperatives, but also realistic enough to know the ego is insatiable.

It seems to be an amplifying spiral between love and selfishness, and where it lands on this planet and beyond is anyone's guess. Some mystics believe that it is the destiny of the cosmos to gradually awaken to itself, and from the highest perspective I agree, but I don't underestimate the chaos that will ensue in the course of cosmic realization.

[Kshantivadin]

19 hours ago, UnlovingGod said:

The wisest move is to get to the point to understand God in everso more depth and stop questioning him and moreso question yourself, why you need a "why?".

 

I want to know, I want to understand. There's probably nothing else in the universe worth understanding more than this, no?

[Breakingthewall]

@Moksha i don't mean the culture, i mean if you teach a kid now. I don't mean to teach him/her to fill his head with bullshits, but to educate him in the total absence of fear, in total acceptance, in total courage and in total openness to reality. Obviously, for that you have to meet those requirements first.