Are Weddings nowadays a old thinking mentality?

[Juan]

The reason I ask this is because since I was a kid I always had a question back in my head which is:  “what if the relationship doesn’t work out in the long run?” “Isn’t a lot of work, drama, time and money for both of you guys to have to deal now with signing divorce papers, throw away thousands of dollars you guys spent for your rings (unless you resell it I guess), see who stay if someone actually stay with the house if you both lived together, the pets even maybe?” “And if you have kids, there are some laws that require the other parent to support financially if not you’re going to jail”, which is a lot of pressure looking back of how maybe my father was feeling when I was growing up.

Even when I’m gonna connect on a normal relationship, sometimes I still think: “what if this doesn’t work out in the long run?” (Some of you guys might point out “well she/he wasn’t the right one if you’re thinking of that”, sure I can see that). Am I not being very optimistic here? Do some of you guys feel the same way? I would like to see some perspective about it. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Juan

[EdgeGod900]

@Juan The weddings that most people partake is definitely an old thinking mentality and very unconscious. My theory is that TRUE MARRIAGE will only happen between two enlightened individuals(even then, not all enlightened people will choose to get married). This means that real marriages are 1 in a billion. Again, just my theory.

[universe]

Well you also get some benefits: Possible tax savings, Visa, being able to decide stuff for each other legally and you can throw a big party.

But yeah overall very traditional and a bit outdated ritual. I would say decide on a case by case basis.

[Husseinisdoingfine]

Marriage and family itself is neurotic and out of date.

[Roy]

Getting married in this day and age is like flipping a coin.

If you land tails nothing really changes and your life is as it pretty much was.

If you land heads you get tremendous heartache, maybe lose half your shit, probably lose access to your kids, and get even more financial strain being forced to give your EX passive income (while she is probably fucking another dude in YOUR old house).

If you're a man getting married is a raw deal and like signing a piece of paper Satan drafted, if you're a woman it's a win-win contract where you're incentivized to break it if things don't go the way you wanted or you get bored.

About 80% of the married men I've ever met have warned it's a terrible and naïve idea they wish they never were brain washed into. I had a lawyer friend say to me once, "Spend a day with me in family court if you want to save yourself a lifetime of suffering."

Are you willing to take those kind of chances with your life? I won't, no thanks. MGTOW all the way.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Roy

[meta_male]

Yes totally outdated, even people with kids don't get married anymore here. It's wishful thinking to assume you're together for the rest of your life because of marriage.

Edited June 2, 2023 by meta_male

[Spiral]

Do a prenup and it’s just an expensive party that probably just reduces the frequency at you get laid. It does have the benefit of removing nagging related to your girl wanting to marry you.

Edited June 2, 2023 by Spiral

[eos_nyxia]

HOT TAKE:  A bad marriage with kids is overall a worse deal for a woman than a man, even if you throw money in a woman's face after divorce. IMO it's a much worse societal con. Personally, I think the loss of money and resources over time is "better" than dealing with any of the issues below, but then, I would never take something from someone who didn't want to give it freely to me in the first place. It makes me feel icky and I would find it hard to live with myself.

I guess something like this is considered the worst possible outcome for men, and I assume it happens often enough to be a serious issue?:

On 2023-06-01 at 5:50 PM, Roy said:

If you're a man getting married is a raw deal and like signing a piece of paper Satan drafted, if you're a woman it's a win-win contract where you're incentivized to break it if things don't go the way you wanted or you get bored.

1) Imagine being a woman having to work a full-time job, and then doing a disproportionate amount of the childcare and domestic labour. At its worst, it's like being a single mother but now you have to take care of an extra man-child on top of everything else. This is assuming that he also is not also abusive too.

I have read of quite a few cases where the distribution of domestic labour and even financial contribution was relatively on par before having children, and then children come, and now they have to deal with men checking out and their weaponized incompetence when it comes to childcare and domestic labour. Oops, it's not what these women signed up for, and now you're stuck with this person in a shitty marriage or else you have to leave, which is a whole ordeal in and of itself. If you're being abused and if you have no other options, then you have to go to a shelter... with your kids. It's hard for me to imagine that there are many women laughing their way to the bank here.....

2) Childbirth and pregnancy are often immensely taxing and destructive to the body. Lots of people of both sexes like to gloss over it or are simply blissfully unaware, and they get very defensive about it. Men get to be clueless because they can be, lots of women have absolutely no idea of the full extent of what they're potentially getting into. (If you're a woman, there will be at least some people who will try to shame and emotionally coerce you into just doing it anyway. Potential and actual partners, acquaintances and friends, coworkers, family, etc. This probably happens to men too, but to a lesser degree, I assume.)

For me, $$$$$ will never make up for the permanent destruction to my body, particularly in a marriage where it's questionable how much a man is actually trying or really truly cares.

3) Society's expectations of performing motherhood/ wifely duties tend to be much higher than it does for men. People just expect you to be good at being a mother, and to a lesser extent, a wife. The standard for being a "good dad" are so pathetically low by comparison, lol.

 

On top of that, something else which is not equal:

People don't take women's reproductive's rights seriously enough; it's absolutely mind-boggling and patronizing that this is still happening. For example, it's generally much easier for a man to get a vasectomy than it is for a woman to get sterilized. Granted, a vasectomy is a much quicker, less invasive, and more reversible procedure than the female equivalents, but having doctors say things like.... "What if you want to have kids later??" and "What if your future husband/ partner wants kids??" really should not be a thing with grown-ass adults anymore. This happens with women often enough who are over the age of 30 or even 40, and to women who already have kids.

You'd think our species was at risk of extinction with the way people behave, lol.

Edited June 5, 2023 by eos_nyxia

[eos_nyxia]

As for weddings, I've always been that girl, even when I was a child: weddings sound terrible and diamonds aren't even that pretty. (If you're going to spend money on me, or we're going to spend money on each other, please let it be on something else. At least take that money, elope, and then go on an extended honeymoon, which is what my brother did.) Not trying to be edgy; I legitimately don't get the appeal.

Lately, I've been wondering what goes on in the brains of serial marriers....

Edited June 5, 2023 by eos_nyxia

[integral]

I think a small get together or even just the 2 of you going somewhere nice for 2 weeks and have a unofficial celebration is the new next best thing. 

Edited June 5, 2023 by integral

[Roy]

8 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

1) Imagine being a woman having to work a full-time job, and then doing a disproportionate amount of the childcare and domestic labour.

Men also have to work full-time jobs? Usually more than full-time as they are more willing to work overtime, and through holidays and sickness. Which is way men generally earn more per annum. Also more dangerous and difficult jobs (men make up 90%+ of workplace fatalities).

The labor would ideally be split evenly in a functioning relationship, or an agreement based on what is most ideal/efficient. The person who makes more should work more, while the other person takes time off to deal with household duties and childcare.

If resources are managed properly, it's always an option to take maternal/paternal leave, work part-time, or completely stop work to be a stay at home mom. This is how it's been done for thousands of years, because it works.

8 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

At its worst, it's like being a single mother but now you have to take care of an extra man-child on top of everything else. This is assuming that he also is not also abusive too.

Yeah that sucks, but the woman chose that man when she agreed to marry him. If there is abuse you can leave if you want. Only takes 1 party for divorce. Not saying it's easy, but it's an option.

8 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

Oops, it's not what these women signed up for, and now you're stuck with this person in a shitty marriage or else you have to leave, which is a whole ordeal in and of itself.

It IS what they signed up for. They AGREED to be in a relationship, get to know that person, then AGREED to a lifelong commitment to them. Which apparently doesn't mean much anyways because you can once again, freely leave. And they do, women initiate roughly 80% of divorces.

8 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

Childbirth and pregnancy are often immensely taxing and destructive to the body

Yes? But that is the cost of what is potentially the most beautiful gift you can get in life. Besides, nobody MADE anyone get pregnant. Let's look at what it takes to reach that "taxing and destructive" occasion;

A woman chose to accept a mans advances, she chose to go home with him, she chose to open her legs, she chose to have unprotected sex, she chose to let him ejaculate inside her, she chose not to be on birth control or have an IUD, she chose not to take Plan B the day after, she chose not to have an abortion in the following weeks.

That's a hell of a lot of choices to lead to something you might not have wanted or regret.

Something that the woman chooses for BOTH people by the way. Men don't get a say in the matter. They cast their "proverbial vote" when they chose to think with their penis.

8 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

For me, $$$$$ will never make up for the permanent destruction to my body, particularly in a marriage where it's questionable how much a man is actually trying or really truly cares.

Apparently it does for a lot of women who encourage each other to get divorces as a way to monkey branch to something better, or an opportunity to pad their retirement plan.

Nobody said it had to be pleasant either. Usually trying to undo a multi-year long series of poor choices isn't fun, even if you get some $$$$$ in the process.

8 hours ago, eos_nyxia said:

now they have to deal with men checking out and their weaponized incompetence when it comes to childcare and domestic labour.

Children are less likely to grow up to be criminals when raised by single fathers as opposed to single mothers. That certainly casts a shadow of doubt on the idea that men are incompetent with childcare lol.

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Roy

[eos_nyxia]

@Roy I am bringing up some worst-case scenarios that I have read about and comparing it with your worst case scenarios. I am not talking about how more equitable circumstances would play out. (In this case, where are the actual problems?) In some cases, depending on where you are geographically, there is far more limited (or non-existent) infrastructure when it comes to parental leave. The other things you described (working part time, SAHM) is not so feasible for people who are too close to the poverty line even when both people are working full time and are locked into this sort of loop in order to support their kids, and obviously includes people who don't have the skills to handle their money.

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Yeah that sucks, but the woman chose that man when she agreed to marry him. If there is abuse you can leave if you want. Only takes 1 party for divorce. Not saying it's easy, but it's an option.

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It IS what they signed up for. They AGREED to be in a relationship, get to know that person, then AGREED to a lifelong commitment to them. Which apparently doesn't mean much anyways because you can once again, freely leave. And they do, women initiate roughly 80% of divorces.

The purpose of bringing up what I did wasn't to measure tit-for-tat and to make it into a gender war, exactly.

It was again, to bring up some worst-case scenarios on the other side, and to say that on some hypothetical universal scale... the risk of permanent bodily damage via pregnancy, and also the risk of physical and sexual abuse is a much worse cost than getting screwed out of years of your resources. Like if I had to hypothetically pick one or the other, I know which one I would pick. Also, unpaid emotional and physical labour does matter. One partner getting completely burnt out while the other one avoids responsibility does matter.

If I was focusing tit-for-tat, I could easily say the same thing about men who entered relationships and marriages with women who screwed them over in the end. Like, you really should have seen it coming because it was your responsibility to know them better from the outset, huh? Otherwise, you wouldn't have gotten into the situation with "divorce rape", or gotten someone pregnant that you couldn't trust.

Don't you know, when things really go to shit, no one is on your side, the law might not even be on your side, so act accordingly?

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A woman chose to accept a mans advances, she chose to go home with him, she chose to open her legs, she chose to have unprotected sex, she chose to let him ejaculate inside her, she chose not to be on birth control or have an IUD, she chose not to take Plan B the day after, she chose not to have an abortion in the following weeks.

Tit-for-tat = You know after you get a woman pregnant that you are responsible for the consequences, and pregnancy is always a possibility. It's not like this is some sort of hidden detail or conspiracy if you actually look around? Legally, you have no real power and you just have to accept that because that's the way things are. It's the society we live in. If she's untrustworthy and you get screwed by the law? (Like she pokes holes in the condom or something?) Yea, you should have been more aware and not stuck your dick in crazy. This is what happens when you think with your dick and you don't vet people for character. You shouldn't have trusted her to be on the pill, or to not make errors with it. You should have been more prepared. You should have seen it coming. Be prepared for all possible consequences or don't get involved. Etc. etc.  

Really, this could go on and on.

This was actually the perspective that I would have held when I was much younger, and I could not for the life of me understand how men were so reckless with their dicks and feelings, because I learned very early in life that if you throw yourself blindly into trusting people, or if you only see what you want to see with people, then yea you're probably gonna get screwed because you lack experience and you don't know what to look out for. Having a shitty childhood will do that for you. Not coincidentally, I married someone who just gets it because he also had a shitty childhood. I'm trying to put myself in other people's shoes though.

On a practical, self-survival level, either you learn how to identify problems before they actually happened or you get screwed. Such is life. Should the foundation of your legislation and social infrastructure be based on assuming that the worst possible outcome is probably going to happen? Probably not. It'd be a terrible society to live in. Should all the various worst possible outcomes be addressed and prepared for still? Yes. It's one reason why the law exists and should exist.

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Yes? But that is the cost of what is potentially the most beautiful gift you can get in life.

I admit that I am not that sentimental about birth and child-rearing. I think that it COULD be beautiful and transformative, but all other sorts of adverse life experiences could potentially end up being profoundly transformative. Like cancer. Or being abused as a child. You COULD potentially have an easier birth, but it's still giving birth regardless. It's a roulette.

TBH I don't think this sort of perspective means very much from someone who doesn't actually have to do the birthing; you get to just shoot your sperm and get on with your life, physiologically speaking. It means the most from someone who actually has done it, or if woman who goes into it with eyes wide open, and has decided that despite the costs and the fact that getting the sort of family you desire is a roulette, it is still personally worthwhile.

Straight up on paper, pregnancy and childbirth is not a good deal for a woman, if we're just talking about cold, hard logic. It's a process driven by impulses and emotion, but also enculturation. It makes us profoundly emotionally and physically vulnerable, and mostly we're just expected to suck it up because it's always been done and because it's been necessary to continue our species. This really is not a revolutionary argument, but it might be outlandish in this space because of how this forum leans perspective-wise...

Edited June 6, 2023 by eos_nyxia

[eos_nyxia]

16 hours ago, Roy said:

Children are less likely to grow up to be criminals when raised by single fathers as opposed to single mothers. That certainly casts a shadow of doubt on the idea that men are incompetent with childcare lol.

This isn't what I was referring to when I was referring to weaponized incompetence. I was specifically referring to it within the context of a heterosexual relationship, where men avoid tasks related to domestic labour and childcare, and then the woman has to pick up all or most of the slack to get anything done. And then considering the total energy expenditure in maintaining a home and relationship on top of both people working, it becomes extremely lopsided when you look at both sides. So you end up with things like exhausted, hardworking women who spend pretty much all of their time either working or taking care of their kids and husband, while the husband has more free time and energy and gets to have things like hobbies, cracking open beers with friends, more sleep, checking out after work to play video games, or whatever else it is that they want to do with said free time and energy.

On a purely logical level, this is a pretty shit deal for a woman. And I would say that women generally do consider whether it's worth breaking up their marriage because they're unhappy. Maybe many do not (since you brought up the most sociopathic examples), but I would say that this tends to go directly against the aspect of our socialization which encourages us to always consider others' feelings, needs, preferences, and desires above our own. Eventually, one way or another, something's gotta give.

Women from older generations are more likely to just suck it the fuck up. And I guess this is what many people consider to be "good marriages"? What, because they haven't divorced?

On a personal level, I don't really have this particular sort of workhorse-like fortitude anyway, and cannot do what people like my mother have done. Certainly not as well as she did.

I tend not to assume that weaponized incompetence is this super deliberate, conscious thing, and is moreso related to men's societal conditioning. (And I would prefer not to assume maliciousness anyway.)

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by eos_nyxia