Do Depersonalization and Derealization exist?

[Moksha]

@Water by the River I generally like Ken Wilbur, but this quote is rife with potential misinterpretation. I know you already realize this, but some of the folks here on the forum may not.

To understand ego death and absolute realization requires a clear definition of what ego is.

Ego is NOT the human mind, with its perceptions, drives, and desires. Enlightenment precludes none of these phenomena, nor does it imply that people become mindless automatons.

Ego is IDENTIFICATION with the human mind. It is blind enslavement to perceptions, drives, and desires in the false conviction that these attachments will lead to happiness. It is inevitably suffering.

Lucid dreaming is the unconditional intersection of the absolute with the relative. It is god experiencing its creation without losing itself within it.

Wilbur is right that mystics change the world. Their motivation is not misidentification, but is the pure channeling of the absolute into its cosmos. The mind is not abandoned, but is deconditioned and transfigured from an oppressive demon into a companion dragon that will take you into depths and heights that would have been impossible in the unawakened state.

[Water by the River]

2 hours ago, Moksha said:

@Water by the River I generally like Ken Wilbur, but this quote is rife with potential misinterpretation. I know you already realize this, but some of the folks here on the forum may not.

To understand ego death and absolute realization requires a clear definition of what ego is.

Ego is NOT the human mind, with its perceptions, drives, and desires. Enlightenment precludes none of these phenomena, nor does it imply that people become mindless automatons.

Ego is IDENTIFICATION with the human mind. It is blind enslavement to perceptions, drives, and desires in the false conviction that these attachments will lead to happiness. It is inevitably suffering.

Lucid dreaming is the unconditional intersection of the absolute with the relative. It is god experiencing its creation without losing itself within it.

Wilbur is right that mystics change the world. Their motivation is not misidentification, but is the pure channeling of the absolute into its cosmos. The mind is not abandoned, but is deconditioned and transfigured from an oppressive demon into a companion dragon that will take you into depths and heights that would have been impossible in the unawakened state.

Moksha, thanks for this post. I clearly made a mistake quoting this Wilber article that is indeed ripe with potential misinterpretation without further context in this forum.

"Ego is NOT the human mind, with its perceptions, drives, and desires. Enlightenment precludes none of these phenomena, nor does it imply that people become mindless automatons.

Ego is IDENTIFICATION with the human mind. It is blind enslavement to perceptions, drives, and desires in the false conviction that these attachments will lead to happiness. It is inevitably suffering."

Nice summary, fully agree with it.

Ego Identification is what I call separate self, separate self arisings or separate self gestalt. The identification with only a part of Reality (an illusion part to be precise) that splits the Infinite Oneness of Reality into two, into duality.

"Wilbur is right that mystics change the world. Their motivation is not misidentification, but is the pure channeling of the absolute into its cosmos. The mind is not abandoned, but is deconditioned and transfigured from an oppressive demon into a companion dragon that will take you into depths and heights that would have been impossible in the unawakened state."

Yes, beautiful.

Water by the River

 

[Moksha]

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Ego Identification is what I call separate self, separate self arisings or separate self gestalt. The identification with only a part of Reality (an illusion part to be precise) that splits the Infinite Oneness of Reality into two, into duality.

Well said. Sometimes the ego is so insidious that it insists it is all reality, whether veiled or not, and as such is eminently worthy of worshipping itself.

The devil is in the relative details, despite its declamations of absolute love.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Moksha said:

Well said. Sometimes the ego is so insidious that it insists it is all reality, whether veiled or not, and as such is eminently worthy of worshipping itself.

The devil is in the relative details, despite its declamations of absolute love.

I would distinguish between three levels of the ego.

the one that we use to think as the ego, which is identification, self-image. what one thinks of himself and of reality, which translates into a constant mental flow that creates a bubble where he keeps himself locked up. that is to say, by staying locked up, it creates itself, since as soon as that flow ceases, it disappears. it is the social, human ego, created by language and interaction.

then there is another level, the actual separation that the body creates. there is an out objetive. if they hits you it hurts, if you don't eat, you are hungry. it is the animal ego.

and then there is a third level: the configuration of this apparent reality. the sequence of events, the senses, the forms, the cosmos, the energetic patterns that create this dimension. you can transcend the first, even the second, but it is extremely difficult to transcend the third. You can, by transcending the previous ones, intuit the absolute behind this apparent reality, but it is practically impossible to dissolve it completely. this is the ego of god. the mental creation that cosmos is. it is only fully transcended in very extraordinary cases or with psychedelics, which are master keys left in this dimension for that purpose.

Edited June 1, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Juan]

@Water by the River You’re very informative, I like that, thanks for your input. 

[Moksha]

3 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

I would distinguish between three levels of the ego.

I like that. All three levels of the ego are transcended by direct realization. Appearances still come and go, but you no longer identify with them. You can still navigate from a distance through the dream, but there is absolute awareness that you are doing nothing, thinking nothing, and identifying as nothing. That is the true flow state.

The awakened sages call a person wise when all his undertakings are free from anxiety about results; all his selfish desires have been consumed in the fire of knowledge. The wise, ever satisfied, have abandoned all external supports. Their security is unaffected by the results of their action; even while acting, they really do nothing at all.

[Aaron p]

@Moksha awesome words

I like your description of healthy ego dissolution. So it is connected to functionality. The individual remains functional, if anything he will be leaps and bounds ahead of where he was originally in terms of functionality.

In one way I suppose to look at it, awakening doesent eradicate the requirements to feed and nurture the body and mind. The self remains but it is seen through as illusory and fictitious.

And I suppose becoming aware that the dream or "movie" of life is just an illusory story could only motivate one to develop and create a great movie! For its own beauty 

Edited June 5, 2023 by Aaron p

[Moksha]

@Aaron p ⚡Misidentification is myopic. Your awareness is so entangled with experience that you constantly trip over yourself, like wearing geek goggles in a VR game. You don't realize how much energy you are pouring into the illusion until you remove the glasses and regain peripheral vision. 

Ironically, the dream gets better the less you identify with it.

[CherryColouredFunk]

The truth will get you nothing. Do not seek it unless you are insane in your compulsion for it. Focus on improving your life, improve this dream, not burning it. Seek to lessen or treat your depersonalization by doing things that take you out of your mind, like working out and socializing.

Edited June 5, 2023 by CherryColouredFunk

[Moksha]

30 minutes ago, CherryColouredFunk said:

The truth will get you nothing.

The truth will set you free.

[Aaron p]

I have never experienced depersonalization or derealization myself personally. 

I suppose the truth will set me free and it will bring to nothing simultaneously. Just not the nothing I currently imagine. But I will definitely be seeking it. We don't need to worry about falling into a trap of seeking that which cannot be found...we have 5meo analogues. There is something extremely real to be sought and found and its magnitude is greater than we can all imagine.

I suppose we're finding the ballance. Recognising that the ego can be dissolved whilst the body and mind and human dream can continue with full health, socialisation, growth and penetrating success. Almost like we can have our cake and eat it

[Sugarcoat]

On 2023-05-28 at 8:08 PM, Aaron p said:

This is quite a key point for me, because it's hard to identify the difference between regular mental health issues and insights of power and authentic spirituality.

 

For example what is the difference between Depersonalization (the category of mental illness relating to the sense that you are not real) and an awakening into the truth of no self (the realisation that you are not real). 

And the same for the sense of a real external reality...

I'm hoping to get an objective answer.

----------------------------------------------------

Leo, is the defining factor you use to distinguish these two [similar sounding] phenomena, purely a matter of remaining functional as a human?

I’ve experienced what would be considered derealization /depersonalization for a big portion of my life. In a sense you could say it has been my default state. In my case I would say it’s more neurological rather than relating to poor mental health. 

i would say this

 

with derealization/depersonalization you still have a sense of self and external reality it’s just that this deviates from the “normal” sense. It’s not the same as “no self” and “no world”. You still have a quality to yourself and the world but it’s just  different 

also in my experience - when I had my awakening to awareness / “shift “ - the depersonalization and derealization continued but the fundamental way in which I related to it changed you could say. The shift was more fundamental than those things 

Also those things don’t have to be a problem either. Conventionally they are associated with suffering - I’ve never understood this. I’ve had these “mental illnesses” for a big portion of my life but it has never caused me significant suffering…what is so scary about things not feeling super real ? Haha I don’t get it ?

also …in order for you to recognize these states. You have to have some real sense of what “normal “ reality is that stands in contrast, perhaps you have memory from the past or something, so there is something that seems real to you, but you don’t seem connected to it.  You cannot walk around and experience “nothing seems real” becuase if nothing seems real then you wouldn’t be able to recognize it. You have to have some sense of something that seems very real that stands in contrast. So in these mental states you still are connected to “realness” in some way, perhaps it’s buried deep in your psyche, but it just seems further away from your access or something . “Awakening” contains all of this and is more fundamental I would say 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Sugarcoat

[Sugarcoat]

On 2023-06-01 at 3:39 AM, Juan said:

You have zero clue of what depersonalization is. I could even write a book of how horrendous it is to be in that state of mind to the point of suicide, you don’t want to be there, everything feels so doll and fake. Separation with everything escalated to who knows what percentage, you could become even antisocial for how much disconnected you are with yourself and the world, you have a big ass victim mentality, physically you are here but mentally you are elsewhere, is not a pretty place, it’s hell, not identical at all to awakening or God Realization.

One thing is to experience this in order to awake, another thing is being on that state 24/7 for months and years. 

I don’t understand what is the suffering in this disconnection? I’ve had these “mental illnesses” for a big portion of my life. You are still connected to something, some world and some sense of self although it deviates from norm and is perhaps more diffuse, because if you weren’t connected to any self /world then you wouldn’t be able to recognize this “state” as a thing. It needs contrast to exist 

Edited June 11, 2023 by Sugarcoat

[Yimpa]

@Sugarcoat Different experiences are totally acceptable. This is why you’ve gotta think outside of the box. The more you are attached and needing to maintain a specific version of reality, the more you’re limiting yourself. 

Allow yourself to take a shit while sucking your thumb once in a while.

Ultimately, the suffering manifests when you don’t allow yourself to explore yourself!

[Yimpa]

On 6/5/2023 at 4:32 PM, CherryColouredFunk said:

The truth will get you nothing.

On 6/5/2023 at 5:03 PM, Moksha said:

The truth will set you free.

The truth will make you realize that you’re making all of this UP!

[Moksha]

6 hours ago, Yimpa said:

The truth will make you realize that you’re making all of this UP!

The only bondage is misidentification, and freedom is the absence of misidentification. Imagination isn't free, it only misconstrues itself to be.