Rationality is an essential tool for spirituality, actually.

[WeCome1]

Here is a piece of practical advice that might save you decades of confusion and misery:
An irrational mind cannot be transcended.
Our intellect has two modes of thinking. One is the Rational mode: the mind considers a problem, takes available inputs, evaluates them rationally, reaches a conclusion, and terminates. We could say that its goal, its intention is to terminate - by solving the problem which set it off. The product of rational mind is clarity.
The other one is the Irrational mode: the mind considers the problem partially, takes some of the inputs and pulls some other out of its ass, evaluates them in arbitrary manner, reaches a problematic conclusion, and considers it as the next problem/input. Its objective and intention is the opposite: to perpetuate a story, a narrative in the mind. And it just so happens that this story the irrational mind is spinning is the story of you. A story about how a man got fucked.
The problem with clarity is that nobody can make sense of stuff for you. Even if some ultimate truth dawns on you automagically in meditation or overwhelms you with its inescapable totality during a trip - your irrational mind will hijack, subvert and nullify it soon enough.
So, what can be done? Here are a couple quotes to set the mood:

Quote

What can be said at all can be said clearly, and whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent. - Ludwig Wittgenstein

Quote

A problem well stated is half solved. - Charles Kettering

Maybe you cannot awaken by reading the forum - but you sure as hell can get a lot of deliberate practice in rationality here, or anywhere else communication takes place:

• Be clear and explicit with yourself about what exactly you are doing/saying and why you are doing/saying it.
• Read/listen carefully. Like, really, get to the core of author's communication - or lack thereof. Be aware of the whole context.
• Use proper argumentation. Thesis, explanation, evidence - instead of ungrounded truth-claims.
• Check your facts by tracing them to the source of origin. State an opinion as an opinion explicitly.
• Learn all you can about logical fallacies. Spot them wherever you can; avoid using them yourself.
• Be honest about what you don't know. Better to ask or remain silent - than to regurgitate a bunch of platitudes of unchecked origin and buzzwords the meaning and context of which you are not 100% certain about.
• Do your research before asking questions.

It is not the point of this thread to discuss the metaphysics of whether there is or isn't anything else to do in spirituality besides exhausting the confused narrative the irrational mind is perpetuating - go create a separate thread for that, if needed. The point is rather to make a public service announcement that if you are under the impression that you can bypass rationality with enough substances and consciousness work and get some lasting results (clarity, peace, love, whatever you are looking for) - you are utterly and hopelessly screwed.
Declaring something like "You cannot think your way out of the prison cell of Self-Deception(TM)" usually means that you probably haven't even touched the bars yet. Could this be your case? How sure are you?

[Yimpa]

6 minutes ago, WeCome1 said:

Maybe you cannot awaken by reading the forum

You can. In the same way you can awaken by taking a crap on the toilet. 

 

[WeCome1]

2 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

You can. In the same way you can awaken by taking a crap on the toilet. 

There is difference between "by" and "while".

[Yimpa]

@WeCome1 See, I was considering editing my message even before you mentioned it. 

Then I realized that the distinction is absolutely identical. 

All distinctions, in fact.

[Thought Art]

Gnosis don’t pay the groceries 

[Yimpa]

1 minute ago, Thought Art said:

Gnosis don’t pay the groceries 

Well-paid.

[Carl-Richard]

Very based.

[Razard86]

8 hours ago, Yimpa said:

You can. In the same way you can awaken by taking a crap on the toilet. 

 

I really wish people awoke permanently that way lol. Unloading bullshit. You could say enlightenment is taking a crap on the toilet and never being fooled again.

[Water by the River]

16 hours ago, WeCome1 said:

An irrational mind cannot be transcended.

Ouch. That could be a real show-stopper for some gladiators actors. But only if they would think rationally. So no problem here, Houston! 

Selling Water by the River

[Breakingthewall]

The irrational mind works like this: I need things to be exactly like that, therefore, I'm going to adapt the reality in my mind to my need so that everything fits (mom, tell me that everything will be fine). 

Once this is achieved, I will receive the certificate of professional idiot, and I will make stupid statements with absolute certainty, and if someone refutes them, I will use evasive countermeasures, ultimately reaching violence.  

A message to the idiots of the world: idiot, get out of your idiocy! stop lying to yourself! you are no longer 6 years old, you piece of idiot! Look in the mirror, and repeat after me: I am a lying idiot and the foundations of my psyche are lies, I am going to let them fall apart, with two big balls, and from now on my motto will be the truth. I will never deviate a millimeter from the truth. First the truth, second myself. and when the time comes to look God in the face, I will have absolutely nothing to hide.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[WeCome1]

6 hours ago, Water by the River said:

But only if they would think rationally.

I know, right? Raising awareness by the river...

6 hours ago, Water by the River said:

So no problem here, Houston! 

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, WeCome1 said:

Yes! Actually way better than anyone could have guessed.... ItSAULGOODMAN, always already 

Selling Water by the River

[Yimpa]

Rationality = Irrationality 

From a certain point of few

[WeCome1]

28 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Rationality = Irrationality 

From a certain point of few

Care to elaborate? If only for the sake of practice?

On 5/26/2023 at 7:24 PM, WeCome1 said:

• Use proper argumentation. Thesis, explanation, evidence - instead of ungrounded truth-claims.
• Check your facts by tracing them to the source of origin. State an opinion as an opinion explicitly.

 

[Vibroverse]

This makes sense, to some extent. But, i think, we need to think about what rationality even means, first. 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Vibroverse

[Water by the River]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_reasoning

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rationality

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Method 1: And the last one means mainly:

1) come up with a Hypothesis

2) try to kill it in any way

3) if you can't, postulate it as theory

4) which can NEVER be proven, but only disproven. And theory can fall in the future.

Method 2: What normally happens instead:

1) define your pet-Hypothesis

2) come up only with cases or reasons that support it. Ignore anything contradicting it. Don't seach for stuff contradicting it, avoid that, subtly or not.

3) aggresively fight and deny any reasons or evidence against 

 

And here we are.... Everybody normally just trying to proove his stuff, disproove all the others. So the opposite of the scientific method. And Method 2 is that which mainly happens in Academia, well known to anybody having experience with the Academic System. Kill your own PhD hypothesis? ARE YOU MAD?!? Who pays the bills without tenure track in sight?

And why does one do that? Much more important for survival is a coherent belief-system. Doesn't need to be comprehensive/complete, but should be contradiction-free, else one goes mad. That works well in everyday life.

It works crappy in scientific or other knowledge-generation-based endevours.

 

And if you want to really cause fun for all others, as a certain actor is currently performing a great gig in: Combine Method 2 with Circular Logic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_reasoning#:~:text=Circular reasoning (Latin%3A circulus in,are trying to end with.

 

Selling Water by the River

Edited May 28, 2023 by Water by the River

[WeCome1]

Just a little something I would like to add to the opening post.

It might be tempting to label rationality "a mind game" and "just more concepts" within a dream. Don't. At least, not until you are very certain you have pushed it to the limit.

Exhibit A: Confused mind thinks there is a knot; Clarity reveals there never was one; Rationality untangles confusion.

 

Edited May 27, 2023 by WeCome1

[Yimpa]

46 minutes ago, WeCome1 said:

Care to elaborate? If only for the sake of practice?

I ain’t doing shit!

[Leo Gura]

There is a big difference between proper and improper use of rationality. Rationality is a good thing when properly used. But it is badly abused in our culture and the academic and scientific communities.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Inliytened1]

On 5/26/2023 at 11:24 AM, WeCome1 said:

Here is a piece of practical advice that might save you decades of confusion and misery:
An irrational mind cannot be transcended.
Our intellect has two modes of thinking. One is the Rational mode: the mind considers a problem, takes available inputs, evaluates them rationally, reaches a conclusion, and terminates. We could say that its goal, its intention is to terminate - by solving the problem which set it off. The product of rational mind is clarity.
The other one is the Irrational mode: the mind considers the problem partially, takes some of the inputs and pulls some other out of its ass, evaluates them in arbitrary manner, reaches a problematic conclusion, and considers it as the next problem/input. Its objective and intention is the opposite: to perpetuate a story, a narrative in the mind. And it just so happens that this story the irrational mind is spinning is the story of you. A story about how a man got fucked.
The problem with clarity is that nobody can make sense of stuff for you. Even if some ultimate truth dawns on you automagically in meditation or overwhelms you with its inescapable totality during a trip - your irrational mind will hijack, subvert and nullify it soon enough.
So, what can be done? Here are a couple quotes to set the mood:

Maybe you cannot awaken by reading the forum - but you sure as hell can get a lot of deliberate practice in rationality here, or anywhere else communication takes place:

• Be clear and explicit with yourself about what exactly you are doing/saying and why you are doing/saying it.
• Read/listen carefully. Like, really, get to the core of author's communication - or lack thereof. Be aware of the whole context.
• Use proper argumentation. Thesis, explanation, evidence - instead of ungrounded truth-claims.
• Check your facts by tracing them to the source of origin. State an opinion as an opinion explicitly.
• Learn all you can about logical fallacies. Spot them wherever you can; avoid using them yourself.
• Be honest about what you don't know. Better to ask or remain silent - than to regurgitate a bunch of platitudes of unchecked origin and buzzwords the meaning and context of which you are not 100% certain about.
• Do your research before asking questions.

It is not the point of this thread to discuss the metaphysics of whether there is or isn't anything else to do in spirituality besides exhausting the confused narrative the irrational mind is perpetuating - go create a separate thread for that, if needed. The point is rather to make a public service announcement that if you are under the impression that you can bypass rationality with enough substances and consciousness work and get some lasting results (clarity, peace, love, whatever you are looking for) - you are utterly and hopelessly screwed.
Declaring something like "You cannot think your way out of the prison cell of Self-Deception(TM)" usually means that you probably haven't even touched the bars yet. Could this be your case? How sure are you?

Spirituality is not the dispelling of rationality- it is embodying rationality and then going beyond it.  It is transrational.   That includes rationality and mysticism which is not irrational but rather both includes and transcends.   

Edited May 28, 2023 by Inliytened1