Can toxic green lead us back to blue (Islamic Europe)?

[koops]

I was thinking at what is happening in Europe.

Birth rates are declining, and immigration is rising.

Local people are not having kids or 1-2 max, and immigrants are having +2 kids.

For example. Spain is losing 140 local people per day, and gaining 1661 foreigns DAILY.

France and Germany are probably in similar numbers.
 

Maybe Im biased, but a lot of people are starting to take this seriously.

More political figures in power are muslims now.
Governments are greeting ramadan, but not christmas.
When some non-white person commits a crime and get cover in the news, they almost never mention the ethnicity and is almost never condemn by the politicians on a big scale.

I feel is a case when 'the left goes to far', like Leo mentions in the video.

People in the right agree with this, but is interesting what you feel about this, since I feel most people here tend to the left

 

50 years from now... where is this leading?

Is it posible that in 50-100 years the main religion in Europe is Islam?

Is it posible that feminism swung the pendulum too much and in the near future is going to backfire?

Or maybe Islam is going to evolve and develop?

 

As Im writing this guess it may seem hateful or biased. It can be. But even people from the left when they go to cities like Barcelona, Marseille, Lyon, Paris realize that some things are clearly changing.

 

Curious to know your perspective on this, although I get if you live in the US is not easy to judge the situation.

 

 

 

[Sucuk Ekmek]

Nations came and now nations go Stereotypes are the new trend now.

I don't think oldschool Islam can thrive in Europe, but a new cooperate centralized Islam why not? 

My 2 cents, I think it is imposible to sustain nation based government structures with FIAT monetary system.

In 50 years we gonna be autonomous or centralized.

 

[abundance]

European birth rates aren't declining because of toxic green values. Lol. If you want to look at it through the lens of spiral dynamics, they're declining due to the excesses of stage orange. All industrialized nations are seeing declines in birthrates due to capitalism and the trajectory of economic growth, which causes people to have less time and incentive to have children. And if you want to go even deeper pollution play factor as well. Its causing infertility in many western countries. Which is ultimately a function of unregulated capitalism (orange in excess). 

I guarantee if you take away all the immigrants in Europe and birthrates will still be on the decline. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by abundance

[Danioover9000]

@abundance

20 minutes ago, abundance said:

European birth rates aren't declining because of toxic green values. Lol. If you want to look at it through the lens of spiral dynamics, they're declining due to the excesses of stage orange. All industrialized nations are seeing declines in birthrates due to capitalism and the trajectory of economic growth, which causes people to have less time and incentive to have children. And if you want to go even deeper pollution play factor as well. Its causing infertility in many western countries. Which is ultimately a function of unregulated capitalism (orange in excess). 

I guarantee if you take away all the immigrants in Europe and birthrates will still be on the decline. 

   Why is it only capitalism and economic growth and pollution that leads to decline in birthrates?

   Is it only excess stage orange that leads to declines of birthrates?

[koops]

Feminism is stage green. And a lot of women in developed countries don't want to have kids in their 20s because they want to sleep around and focus on their careers. To later regret in their 30s.

I have friends that don't want to have kids because of the carbon footprint...

Also family is not as valued as before, at least in Europe. Is almost seen as a negative thing. This trend started just 5-10 years ago.

Thats pure green.

Ofc economic growth (orange) is part of the deal. Is not black and white, but half a century ago (stage orange with almost no green) people were having more kids.

 

Maybe I didn't express it clearly. 

I meant that we are trying to evolve to healthy green (with good things like women rights), but some green policies can backfire (lots of immigration from stage blue-red countries that are against this advancements).

Or for example, stage green women are so open minded, that in the name of tolerance, can't speak against muslims beliefs even if the totally disrespect women.

 

22 minutes ago, abundance said:

I guarantee if you take away all the immigrants in Europe and birthrates will still be on the decline. 

I don't have the data, but I not sure about that.

The number of people of lowers stage of development are increasing. Thats an undeniable fact.

And thats my concern.

Are we so openminded that can backfire if a few decades?

 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Sucuk Ekmek

1 hour ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

Nations came and now nations go Stereotypes are the new trend now.

I don't think oldschool Islam can thrive in Europe, but a new cooperate centralized Islam why not? 

My 2 cents, I think it is imposible to sustain nation based government structures with FIAT monetary system.

In 50 years we gonna be autonomous or centralized.

 

   Probably in 50 years lots of automation, centralization and development, based on SD stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality types/traits, states of being/becoming and consciousness, ego development and shadow aspects, life experiences and other lines of development, and biases and preferences and ideological indoctrination. Of course, for a stage blue/purple Islam it won't be an easy development upwards, as lots of features of it must change to fit Europeans.

[Danioover9000]

@koops

1 minute ago, koops said:

Feminism is stage green. And a lot of women in developed countries don't want to have kids in their 20s because they want to sleep around and focus on their careers. To later regret in their 30s.

I have friends that don't want to have kids because of the carbon footprint...

Also family is not as valued as before, at least in Europe. Is almost seen as a negative thing. This trend started just 5-10 years ago.

Thats pure green.

Ofc economic growth (orange) is part of the deal. Is not black and white, but half a century ago (stage orange with almost no green) people were having more kids.

 

Maybe I didn't express it clearly. 

I meant that we are trying to evolve to healthy green (with good things like women rights), but some green policies can backfire (lots of immigration from stage blue-red countries that are against this advancements).

Or for example, stage green women are so open minded, that in the name of tolerance, can't speak against muslims beliefs even if the totally disrespect women.

 

I don't have the data, but I not sure about that.

The number of people of lowers stage of development are increasing. Thats an undeniable fact.

And thats my concern.

Are we so openminded that can backfire if a few decades?

 

 

   Yep, that's the transformational dilemma in Spiral Dynamics, when a person or society develops higher, there'll be some resistance to keep their homeostasis of the collective ego.

[abundance]

1 hour ago, koops said:

Feminism is stage green. And a lot of women in developed countries don't want to have kids in their 20s because they want to sleep around and focus on their careers. To later regret in their 30s.

I have friends that don't want to have kids because of the carbon footprint...

Also family is not as valued as before, at least in Europe. Is almost seen as a negative thing. This trend started just 5-10 years ago.

Thats pure green.

Ofc economic growth (orange) is part of the deal. Is not black and white, but half a century ago (stage orange with almost no green) people were having more kids.

 

Maybe I didn't express it clearly. 

I meant that we are trying to evolve to healthy green (with good things like women rights), but some green policies can backfire (lots of immigration from stage blue-red countries that are against this advancements).

Or for example, stage green women are so open minded, that in the name of tolerance, can't speak against muslims beliefs even if the totally disrespect women.

 

I don't have the data, but I not sure about that.

The number of people of lowers stage of development are increasing. Thats an undeniable fact.

And thats my concern.

Are we so openminded that can backfire if a few decades?

 

 

This has nothing to do with feminism. People are not opting to have kids mostly because its too damn expensive. And yes, its true that many are deciding not to have them for environmental concerns. Based on the trajectory we're on as far as climate change I can't say I blame them. I have a child and I'm terrified of the future she'll live in. Ultimatley these concerns and the reluctance to having children is a result of orange in excess. If we didn't live in such profit driven and competitive society, people would have more time to make babies and have less anxiety about bringing children into this world. 

Your primary concern seems to revolve around immigration. And yes, I wont deny that there is a vast difference in worldviews between say, a Muslim man coming from Pakistan and a European women with stage green values. How you assimilate people who may have pretty rigid stage blue values into a stage orange and increasingly green society is a complex issue. But the refugees are coming and with climate change they'll continue coming. And the solution cannot be the alienation and the demonization of them. That will only cause more tension and further the divide. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by abundance

[koops]

mmm people are not having kids because is too expensive?
I don't think that is 100% false. I think is a half truth.
And culture influences a lot. It seems like having kids and having a family is a thing of the past for a lot of stage green people.

 

If the main reason is economic:

How immigrants (And gipsys for example) in western countries are having 4+ kids when, on average, they are earning significantly less money than the standard western couple?

How the birthrates are higher in less developed continents like Hispanic America and Africa?

There are more reasons than economic problems or being to expensive.

Culture has a lot to do with it.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2023 by koops

[abundance]

48 minutes ago, koops said:

mmm people are not having kids because is too expensive?
I don't think that is 100% false. I think is a half truth.
And culture influences a lot. It seems like having kids and having a family is a thing of the past for a lot of stage green people.

 

If the main reason is economic:

How immigrants (And gipsys for example) in western countries are having 4+ kids when, on average, they are earning significantly less money than the standard western couple?

How the birthrates are higher in less developed continents like Hispanic America and Africa?

There are more reasons than economic problems or being to expensive.

Culture has a lot to do with it.

 

 

Yes, culture has a lot to do with it. And culture is deeply intertwined and influenced by economic mobility.

Poorer people have more children for many different reasons that range from a lack of education, disparities when it comes to resources for family planning, gender inequality, and a range of economic incentives. Which is why we need to expand efforts to educate, empower women, and decrease economic disparities. 

You're correct that what I said is a half truth. Children are expensive no doubt. But people (and women in particular) are more educated and empowered when it comes to deciding whether or not they want to start a family. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Its only a bad thing in your eyes because you ultimately feel threatened and insecure about immigrants taking over and becoming the dominant culture in your society. 

That's a very real and legitimate fear given the profit driven and highly competitive (excessively orange) society we live in. It sounds counter-intuitive but if you want immigrants to properly assimilate into your culture, we have to address all the forementioned things above. Economic disparity. Education. Family planning. Gender inequality. Sure it may ruffle some feathers but its a project that must be done.

There's a lot of talk about the excesses of green these days and I beg to differ. IMO we haven't gone green enough. On the surface, we're becoming more green when it comes to social issues, but it's all done in the backdrop of a deeply orange, highly competitive society. Its performative green. Europe nor the US is anywhere near peak green. We'll reach half green when we make serious efforts to become a more egalitarian society , which requires a radically different approach to economics and society. Not easy task. But one that must be undertaken if we want to progress. 

Edited May 25, 2023 by abundance

[ZenAlex]

Many people cannot afford to meet their own needs, never mind a childs.

 

[koops]

I also prefer a green society rather than a orange one (yellow + really, but I guess it won't happen in our lifetimes).

I won't say I'm threatened, but yes, I have a preference on one culture over another. I consider western culture more evolved than most muslim and latin cultures.

I don't really care which god you like, which holy book you have besides your bed, if you do ramadan, if you pray 0 times a day or 5 or the color of your skin.

I care that you are a good human being and respect the rules and laws of the country you are in.

I care about the decreasing level of development of a country. And a lot of people coming in Europe are against women rights, gay rights, trans rights... not all, but is obvious that this is happening.

Is like some green ideas (full open borders, accept everyone) are against green values (lgtb/women rights, more crime).

It sounds good. And I hope that could be done. But is not realistic in this day and age. And in some countries and some cities, is becoming a problem.
 

I agree that were are not green enough. The problem is that a lot of people feel that because the toxic green is very loud.

 

 

 

 

 

[koops]

@ZenAlex Check out the graph I posted.

The poorest people, countries, and continents are having the higher number of children.

 

[ZenAlex]

2 minutes ago, koops said:

@ZenAlex Check out the graph I posted.

The poorest people, countries, and continents are having the higher number of children.

 

So? A lot of these children will be underfed and malnourished. When I say needs I don't mean simply surviving, I mean adequately cared for.

Needs aren't all short time survival needs.

[Sucuk Ekmek]

4 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Sucuk Ekmek

   Of course, for a stage blue/purple Islam it won't be an easy development upwards, as lots of features of it must change to fit Europeans.

 It's already changing in lightspeed, for example they had their beloved camels now it's changed to wheeled vehicles and air planes. They had their own economic system and now it's debt economy. They had their own epistemic system now they just ask to Saint Google. 

Technological system taking care of everything and everyone. It's the perfect SD  stage Blue lifter.

 So many things already changed, they are more or less democratic Europeans. They did develop in order to survive.

This is what I think.

[Danioover9000]

@Sucuk Ekmek

33 minutes ago, Sucuk Ekmek said:

 It's already changing in lightspeed, for example they had their beloved camels now it's changed to wheeled vehicles and air planes. They had their own economic system and now it's debt economy. They had their own epistemic system now they just ask to Saint Google. 

Technological system taking care of everything and everyone. It's the perfect SD  stage Blue lifter.

 So many things already changed, they are more or less democratic Europeans. They did develop in order to survive.

This is what I think.

   From camels, to wheeled vehicles and planes, from their own economic system(mercantile and gift economy and physical trades) to debt economy, from their own epistemic system? to 'just ask google'...Is this all really progress? Are they developing too fast, technological advancement too faster than human and cultural development?

   How is technological systems taking care of everything and everyone, a great SD stage lifter? Which group and people, and which things are benefiting?

   Which many things changed?  

[Danioover9000]

@ZenAlex

2 hours ago, ZenAlex said:

So? A lot of these children will be underfed and malnourished. When I say needs I don't mean simply surviving, I mean adequately cared for.

Needs aren't all short time survival needs.

   What do you mean 'so?'?

   If a lot of these children will be underfed and malnourished, then we should pause development worldwide?

   What do you mean then when you said 'needs'?

   Needs are both short term and long term?

[Danioover9000]

@koops

2 hours ago, koops said:

@ZenAlex Check out the graph I posted.

The poorest people, countries, and continents are having the higher number of children.

 

   Why do you think the poorest people, countries, and continents are having the higher number of children? Is it because sexy time is powerful there?

Edited May 25, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Danioover9000]

@abundance

2 hours ago, abundance said:

Yes, culture has a lot to do with it. And culture is deeply intertwined and influenced by economic mobility.

Poorer people have more children for many different reasons that range from a lack of education, disparities when it comes to resources for family planning, gender inequality, and a range of economic incentives. Which is why we need to expand efforts to educate, empower women, and decrease economic disparities. 

You're correct that what I said is a half truth. Children are expensive no doubt. But people (and women in particular) are more educated and empowered when it comes to deciding whether or not they want to start a family. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. Its only a bad thing in your eyes because you ultimately feel threatened and insecure about immigrants taking over and becoming the dominant culture in your society. 

That's a very real and legitimate fear given the profit driven and highly competitive (excessively orange) society we live in. It sounds counter-intuitive but if you want immigrants to properly assimilate into your culture, we have to address all the forementioned things above. Economic disparity. Education. Family planning. Gender inequality. Sure it may ruffle some feathers but its a project that must be done.

There's a lot of talk about the excesses of green these days and I beg to differ. IMO we haven't gone green enough. On the surface, we're becoming more green when it comes to social issues, but it's all done in the backdrop of a deeply orange, highly competitive society. Its performative green. Europe nor the US is anywhere near peak green. We'll reach half green when we make serious efforts to become a more egalitarian society , which requires a radically different approach to economics and society. Not easy task. But one that must be undertaken if we want to progress. 

   Do you believe that these people need to be income worthy before starting a family?

[Danioover9000]

@koops

3 hours ago, koops said:

mmm people are not having kids because is too expensive?
I don't think that is 100% false. I think is a half truth.
And culture influences a lot. It seems like having kids and having a family is a thing of the past for a lot of stage green people.

 

If the main reason is economic:

How immigrants (And gipsys for example) in western countries are having 4+ kids when, on average, they are earning significantly less money than the standard western couple?

How the birthrates are higher in less developed continents like Hispanic America and Africa?

There are more reasons than economic problems or being to expensive.

Culture has a lot to do with it.

 

 

   I think in this context, culture may be a more significant factor among other factors.