Nothingness is not = Good (nirodha samapatti)

[Yimpa]

7 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Legit.

Legit when you have an Awakening so deep that all your ideas of reality completely collapse… and you die.

All your intellectual games won’t work on me. I’m probably the dumbest awoken person on this planet!

[RedLine]

59 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

 

• That is Full Enlightenment. Basis Enlightenment in Mahamudra. Fully Waking up to ones True Identity. The Awakenings of Yoga of One Taste, Stage 3, are already called Enlightenments, for example in Zen. That is a much more common Enlightenment than the real one, Basis Enlightenment. 
  • That is why for example Leo emphasizes in God Realization that True You/Reality/"God" (I am reluctant to use that word, not because it is technically incorrect, but because it can lead to a lot of Separate-Self-Boosting) imagines everything. That becomes fully clear with Full Enlightenment/Basis Enlightenment, realizing the full identity of oneself and Reality. Infinite Nothingness manifesting/imagining the whole gig. Like in couldn't be

Not sure if you mean here that Leo God Realization is stage 3 (Wilber Causal) or stage 4 (Wilber Non-Dual). How do you explain 4 path buddhists denny so hard that notions Leo handles, and choose more "materialistc" or "mundane" lingo to describe experience and reality?. Is it because they are in Stage 4 and Leo in Stage 3? Also, why do buddhists reject the God/Absolute concept and Vedanta use it? Are they in differente stages of transpersonal develpment? 

Edited May 24, 2023 by RedLine

[Water by the River]

12 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Not sure if you mean here that Leo God Realization is stage 3 (Wilber Causal) or stage 4 (Wilber Non-Dual). How do you explain 4 path buddhists denny so hard that notions Leo handles, and choose more "materialistc" or "mundane" lingo to describe experience and reality?. Is it because they are in Stage 4 and Leo in Stage 3? 

For Leos Awakenings or Realizations, please ask himself. 

My personal opinion and perspective (and nothing more than that) on concepts like Solipsism and Infinity of Gods is stated here:

And my recommendation would be, similiar to something like Bassui said: Not too much theory. After reading the "letter", throw it in the fire, and practice.

 

13 minutes ago, RedLine said:

Also, why do buddhists reject the God/Absolute concept and Vedanta use it? Are they in differente stages of transpersonal develpment? 

Please see here:

Selling Water by the River

[OldManCorcoran]

56 minutes ago, Yimpa said:

Legit when you have an Awakening so deep that all your ideas of reality completely collapse… and you die.

All your intellectual games won’t work on me. I’m probably the dumbest awoken person on this planet!

You're roleplaying like Razard86 and that one specific mod lol. You haven't encountered these types of events....... They're very serious life altering events, people including quite experienced meditators pay thousands of dollars for the ceremonies to induce it.

Nobody would waste their time or money with that crap (and also take the physical risks involved) if they could go through the same sort of mystical awakening by watching some videos.

[RedLine]

30 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

 

Please see here:

Selling Water by the River

You say Emptiness and Absolute are 2 sides of the same coin. Correct me if I am wrong, in that post you implicitly mean that the bias of the Vedanta towards Absolute notion has to do with the meditation technique they use (Non-dual awareness) vs Buddhist using more analytical meditation (Vipassana); rather than ones being more "spiritual advanced" that the other. Did I understand correctly?

 

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by RedLine

[Water by the River]

2 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

They're very serious life altering events, people including quite experienced meditators pay thousands of dollars for the ceremonies to induce it.

Nobody would waste their time or money with that crap (and also take the physical risks involved) if they could go through the same sort of mystical awakening by watching some videos.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awe

"Awe is an emotion comparable to wonder[1] but less joyous. On Robert Plutchik's wheel of emotions[2] awe is modeled as a combination of surprise and fear.

One dictionary definition is "an overwhelming feeling of reverence, admiration, fear, etc., produced by that which is grand, sublime, extremely powerful, or the like: in awe of God; 

"

And in the german wikipedia, it defines it even better:

"Ehrfurcht ist ein hochsprachliches Wort für eine mit Verehrung einhergehende Furcht. Sie bezieht sich immer auf einen übermächtigen (erhabenen) Adressaten, ob real oder fiktiv. Sie kann individuell oder allgemein üblich sein. Sie empfinden zu können, wird zumeist als Tugend angesehen. „Ehrfurcht“ ist stärker als „Scheu“ oder „Achtung“, schwächer als „Unterwerfung“ oder „Anbetung“. Im Brockhaus von 1896 wird die Ehrfurcht als „der höchste Grad der Ehrerbietung, das Gefühl der Hingabe an dasjenige, was man höher schätzt als sich selbst, sei es eine Person oder eine geistige Macht, wie Vaterland, Wissenschaft, Kirche, Staat, Menschheit, Gottheit“ beschrieben"

"Awe is a fear that goes along veneration. Awe always relates to something that is perceived as overpowering (sublime) addressee, real or fictive. .... . In the Brockhaus dictionary of 1896 awe is described as "the highest degree of veneration, the feeling of submission to that which one values higher as ones own self, be it a person or a  mental/spiritual power, like motherland, science, church, state, humanity or Divinity".

Hope my translation is not completely off... 

Sure, later Reality/God/Divinity/Nothingness is experiences as ones own True Essence. But if one hasn't felt awe on the way there, I would take that as a big indicator that there is more juicy stuff to experience. 

Daniel Brown said that the genuine reaction to a glimpse of the Dharmakaya is awe. An awe that humbles the separate self to its knees. Because THAT is way overpowering, like "something that is perceived as overpowering (sublime) addressee" of the definition of awe above.

Selling Water by the River

[Water by the River]

14 minutes ago, RedLine said:

You say Emptiness and Absolute are 2 sides of the same coin. Correct me if I am wrong, in that post you implicitly mean that the bias of the Vedanta towards Absolute notion has to do with the meditation technique they use (Non-dual awareness) vs Buddhist using more analytical meditation (Vipassana); rather than ones being more "spiritual advanced" that the other. Did I understand correctly?

Dear RedLine,

valid questions, but answering them in detail would cause another waaay to long rambling from my side. The answers to your questions are in my previous posts. Please feel invited to check them out, and if you don't find something useful for your questions, feel free to send me a PM.

Short answer is: Both Vedanta and Buddhist meditation system know and use Nondual states. The trick is how to get there. Latest when getting nondual states (and probably already before when you really start to get the emptiness nature of every thought arising, and can start to dissolve your own suffering-self-contraction-arisings), you will be hellbent to continue the path. Also, the paths starts showing itself to itself then. It goes "downhill" from there, not uphill. Because you have seen the benefits of the path there (bliss starts flowing).

One could say that Vedanta and Theravada tend quite strongly towards concentrative methods, same as the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali for example and Zen. But not exclusively. See Daniel Browns dissertation for example.

The Mahamudra system has got some real unique techniques of combining concentrative and insight elements to learn to be able to ride along the mental talk of the mindstream in a lucid/mindful way.

• That way, you can use daily life very efficient to get the necessary momentum for for example nondual states and getting to impersonal Awakened Awareness.
• I can only highly recommend Daniel Browns Pointing Out the Great Way on that topic.

And by the way, one can't say Buddhist practice style, there many systems in Buddhism. Theravada is very different from for example Tibetan Mahamudra.

My personal opinion is that the Mahamudra-Sytem (for example in the book of Brown) is orders of magnitude more efficient than most other systems I know.

Selling Water by the River

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

You haven't encountered these types of events....... They're very serious life altering events, people including quite experienced meditators pay thousands of dollars for the ceremonies to induce it.

Funny you say that… I must be one in the same as those meditators. My family was very gracious to pay for my ketamine infusions, which in the end costs thousands of dollars.

2 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Nobody would waste their time or money with that crap (and also take the physical risks involved) if they could go through the same sort of mystical awakening by watching some videos.

Watching videos doesn’t even come close to seriously tripping.

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

You're roleplaying like Razard86 and that one specific mod lol.

In the absolute sense, I am Razard86 and all the mods here.

 

[OldManCorcoran]

1 hour ago, Yimpa said:

Funny you say that… I must be one in the same as those meditators. My family was very gracious to pay for my ketamine infusions, which in the end costs thousands of dollars.

Watching videos doesn’t even come close to seriously tripping.

The experimental antidepressant treatment protocol? Ket is not a good psychedelic IMO. Some people use it for that but I found it to primarily induce delirious thoughts, actually very similar to having a fever.

If you're that into these things to try ket, you might want to look into doing a 5-MeO retreat. It's super different from ket or other dissociatives like DXM for example, but it's more what you are looking for in this arena. You must do the full release dose, your guide will help you, let him know your goal.

[Yimpa]

3 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

Ket is not a good psychedelic IMO.

Not good if you’re not willing to face your trauma seriously, especially after the trips are over.

Good if you’re willing to!

[Javfly33]

On 24/05/2023 at 1:03 AM, RedLine said:

When all the the ego attachments (five aggregates) are deconstructed, what is left is not infinite and unconditional bliss and goodness but Nothing, no experience, oblivion.

I challenge you to convice me that the God/Atman/Infinite love, etc as essence of reality makes any sense. This experience is also an ego attachment, still craving, and therefore can be deconsctructed too. 

 

 

its kinda the same no?

Unconditional bliss/Love is NOT an experience  It's literally YOU

Edited May 25, 2023 by Javfly33

[Water by the River]

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

The way i see it, is that if god ceased dreaming, if god ceased all imagination, all experience would vanish and he would be in nirodha samapatti state. So by that logic calling nirodha samapatti a dream doesn't quite follow. It's more like a total end of all dreams. Don't know about others, but that makes more sense to me.

Nirodha Samapatti/Cessation/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep - Causal States: Absolute Reality or passing states. Both!

Please allow me some musings on that topic...

The Nothingness/Infinite Reality in which the show happens right here right now is the same Nothingness that is also the Reality of Nirodha Samapatti. And all other (causal) states, like cessation and so on. Same goes for example of Infinity-"Whiteouts" of 5-MeO experiences and the like.

IT/Nothingness is right here, Infinite Reality itself, It can never not be there. The essence of any manifestation. It is timeless, always here. Eternal. Immortal. Or better: Timeless, like in "can't go anywhere else, has to be right here always". Even in causal Nothingness-states, like Cessation/Nirodha Samapatti/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep.

• Ones True Eternal Impersonal(!) Being, Infinite Consciousness, the Universal Mind itself.

Nirodha Samapatti is a special configuration/modulation IT(Infinite Consciousness/Reality) can have, although that modulation of it REVEALS much of its True Essence, Nothingness.

• IT has also the Infinite Potential to appear as the whole show, the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness.
• And that manifested side is truly nondual with the unmanifested side of Infinite consciousness, One without a second.

By logic, "what something is, its essence" has theoretically to be always the same (Which is why everything perceivable doesn't really exist, because it is temporary, changing. Using verbs instead of nouns would be much more approriate).

• That is why Nothingness (pointing to the "always there" Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness) is for example a much better pointer than for example anything pointing towards the "Manifested Side" of Infinite Consciousness, like the eternal flow of shapes, or even Gods/Buddhfields.
• As long as anything with form, anything specific (and that means also ANYTHING changing, which is also only temporary) is identified with the Absolute: Good luck getting rid of that... There is only one Thing/Non-Thing that is eternal/timeless, Reality itself. Anything else is changing.... The flow of the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness.
• Of course the changing flow of the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness is in a nondual way the same as the Unmanifested Nothingness Side. But the ESSENCE of the manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness is Nothingness, not the other way round. The Manifested Side is NOT the essence of the Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness. Because the manifested side can go (Nirodha Samapatti), so it is not the essence (not what something is, see above).
  • The necklace and gold. Gold would be the unmanifested stay, it stays. The necklace disappeares in the furnace, leaving only god. One is the essence of the other, not the other way round. Nirodha Samapatti is the gold as molten in the furnace, without shape/properties. The necklace, or any jewellery, is the show/manifested side of Infinite Consciousness/gold.

A very nice book on the Awakenings/Enlightenments into the manifested side of Infinite Consciousness vs. the Unmanifested Side (and impersonal/causal/Nothingness) of Infinite Consciousness:

• Infinite Consciousness: An In-depth Exploration of the Shift in Consciousness Constitutive of Enlightenment in relation to True Nature, the Soul, the Body-Mind, the Heart and the Me, Michaël Szyper
  • being able to differentiate between Awakenings/Enlightenments into the Manifested or Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness would also put the whole Awakening n+1 show in a better perspective. A perspective that would actually bring real peace.... But of course would take a lot of juice out of the show, so lets see if Maya prefers the juicy show for yet a bit longer... If in doubt, always bet on Maya! You never get disappointed...  Either she looses (which is nice), or the bet is won. A win-win situation  uhhhh, sorry. And as always, Bon Voyage!

Summarizing all of that: Nirodha Samapatti is a state, and is Nothingness, but is still a conditioned state. Temporary. But very useful and making the Absolute Reality/Infinite Consciousness quite clear...

• But since it is an expression of the Unmanifested Side of Infinite Consciousness/Nothingness, it is closer and a better pointer, a state making Absolute Reality/Nothingness clearer than for example saying the Infinite Flow of Infinite Reality (or anything with form, anything that can be described, God (not the Godhead), Buddhafield, whatever), which is a pointer to the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness.

That framework explains why concerning Causal Nothingness-states, like Cessation/Nirodha Samapatti/Nirvikalpa/Deep Sleep.

• (1) some say it IS the Absolute
• (2) and some say it is only a state, passing, temporary.

As most of the time, nobody is smart enough to be wrong all the time, or even completely wrong with a statement (although some go looong ways to performe quite good in both categories, but that is another topic).

• Same here: Both statements (1) and (2) are true, but partial, and need to be put into context. Then it can be integrated.
• That is why I am such a fan of Integral Thinking/Integral Cognition. It solves contradictions.... And if one has partial truths and contradictions in ones Mental Operating System, one is a walking contradiction on two legs, the prime victim of Maya and suffering of the self-contraction (also a contradiction walking on two feet). Although some seem to enjoy it quite a bit, at least for a time... 

Maybe that is a bit helpful...

Selling Water by the River

Edited May 25, 2023 by Water by the River

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Javfly33 said:

its kinda the same no?

Unconditional bliss/Love is NOT an experience  It's literally YOU

Well, ......... yes!   

When resting IN that Nothingness/Infinite Impersonal Consciousness/Infinite Reality, the bliss/love starts to flow. So that bliss/love lives in the house of ones True Being.

It is the fragrence of love/bliss that one searches in all(!) experiences, after the separate self contraction/ego has strangled this flow of love/bliss. It is the bliss/love of a home that one never really forgot, and actually never really left. Only apparently...

Technically, the bliss/love belongs to the Manifested Side of Infinite Consciousness, the necklace side of the gold. But since it flows as soon as the gold begins to reveal itself, it is just divine in its force (see one of my last post for Awe). It kills "separate you" softly or not so softly... And when the Nondual Realization opens up..... the Divine opens its flood-gates and delivers any love/bliss one ever sought and had, and infinitely more... It is like finding a million dollar in your pocket, and keep pulling out the money in disbelief, always thinking that has to be fake as everything that came before. I think that metaphor is from Adyashanti.

Afterwards, one never mourns the loss of the separate self-illusion. One has lost nothing more than an Illusion, and gained the whole Kosmos. Infinite Freedom, since which/what could constrain ones freedom? Infinite Love, since one knows its source, and there is no other, never could be. One without a second.

And if it is in ones nature, go fishing, grow beautiful flowers in your garden, raise a family, celebrate life.... And if one is inclined to do so, go develop new technologies, explore new fields, leave your mark, go chasing an Alien or two - if one is true Pioneer, discover Alien Dimensions and the wonderfully beautiful creation and mainting mechanism of this Universe/Dimension/Buddhafield and others...  But this time from the fullness of ones True Being, with overflowing bliss and love, and not for getting the love/bliss from the gig/experience, but for expressing the love/bliss that already always lives in ones True Home, right here and right now... And maybe don't value the n+1 Alien anything higher than the bliss/love of ones essence... You know, "others" might get inspired to go chasing their own tail too....

Selling Water by the River 

[Salvijus]

@Water by the River

What you wrote sounds valid enough but i hope you're aware that it was completely off topic and had nothing to do with my quote or the point i was making lol. But it's okey, i don't mind.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Salvijus

[Water by the River]

3 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@Water by the River

What you wrote sounds good but i hope you're aware that it has nothing to do with my quote lol.

Ah, yes, hm. True! 

You know, here in Germany in school if one misses the topic in an essay, its automatically "Thema verfehlt", missed the point, Grad 5 out of 6, 6 being the worst. F in the US. 

Basiscally "So by that logic calling nirodha samapatti a dream doesn't quite follow" I wanted to comment why some call contioned states like Nirodha Samapatti a dream (=state), a temporary, passing and empty state And some call it the Absolute.

There is truth in both. Similiar in order to get the Absolute (Infinite free of any and all concepts), even Emptiness has to be emptied out. The "Awarer" of Emptiness/Infinity/anything has to be seen and transcended/cut off also to get to real Nonduality/Infinite.  Awareness of Being/Awareness of Emptiness/ Awareness (Understanding) OF the Absolute is also just an arising IN the Infinite. See also one my previous posts on the Portals to the Absolute, Wolinsky.

That dual meaning of the Causal state as both state AND Absolute at leased confused Yours Truly for a looong time.

But as you maybe have already noticed, I enjoy writing about these things here. So apparently yours truly tends to hijack some posts, and goes of wandering to wherever he wants....  Gotta watch that tendency a bit, or at least clarify the intention for where and why wanndering off 

Selling Water by the River

 

[Breakingthewall]

4 hours ago, Javfly33 said:

its kinda the same no?

Unconditional bliss/Love is NOT an experience  It's literally YOU

On 24/5/2023 at 1:03 AM, RedLine said:

 

What we are is absence of limits. The  absence of limits brings with it total existence, infinity. infinity is total freedom and absolute love because it encompasses everything, nothing is excluded, since it would be impossible. nothing is better or worse than anything, infinity is, and we call that love, because it is what we feel when we love someone, unity with him. love=existence. in infinity everything is equal, everything is existence, without anything being better than anything else. in the finite there are limits, so some things are better than others from the finite point of view, but this is just appearance, 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Salvijus]

44 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

I wanted to comment why some call contioned states like Nirodha Samapatti a dream (=state), a temporary, passing and empty state And some call it the Absolute.

Okey i think i see where that train of thought came from now. But i never heard anyone calling nirodha a temporary, passing thing. Calling it the absolute, unborn, uncreated, eternal, boundless makes much more sense imo.

And the original point i was trying to make was triggered by Leo saying that nirodha and nothingness is just an act of god's imagination and how it doesn't make much sense to me. Because nothingness in my view is the only thing that cannot be imagined or created or dreamed up.  Rather i think it would be more accurate to say nirodha is the total opposite of that. It's the end of all imagination, end of all creation, end of all dreams etc.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Salvijus

[Water by the River]

16 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Okey i think i see where that train of thought came from now. But i never heard anyone calling nirodha a temporary, passing thing. Calling it the absolute, unborn, uncreated, eternal, infinte makes much more sense.

 

Yes, fully agree.

And the Nothingness is always there (gold), even when the necklage (form) shows up. Made out of it.

 i just wanted to say that the perspective that the causal can also be considered a state when one wants to describe the temporaray experience of it is also valid.

• On the concentrative paths, one normally experiences the Nothingness normally first as state, before one can "hold" the awareness of the Nothingness as the essence also of form/visual field in daily life (Nondual Realization). That is why early Buddhism put Nirvana on a pedestal. One can get "hung upon" Emptiness/Nothingness as state. Awareness "OF" Emptiness. Then one has to empty out emptiness.
• Realizing broadly as movement (Buddhism) fully that Samsara is Nirvana, and emphasizing the Nondual nature of both, and formulating all of that into doctrine (Nagarjuna, Madyamaka) came later. Having Nirodha as state is easier (and can comes before) fully holding the Nondual Realization that essence of the necklace(form) is gold in daily life. But also that happens (realization with Nondual without Cessations before). Mahamudra and Dzogchen for example quite efficiently directly train the Nondual Awakening, and not giving Nirvana/Causal/Cessation states the importance it had in early Buddhism (and partially still has in Theravada).

But if having the choice only between either/or (and not integrating both staetments into proper context to make the partial truths of each more encompassing)

1. calling Niroda/Nothingness/Cessation just an temporary imagined state or

2. calling Nothingness/Niroda the Absolute, "the" Infinite Always Already Here Reality, ones True Fully Empty (Nothingness) Impersonal Being of Infinite Consciousness/Universal Mind,

yours truly also would always chose the 2. perspective. Because its fully empty&impersonal Infinite Consciousness/ Suchness/ Nothingness. And that is what helps making it stable in daily life.

Calling it just 1. (and downplaying 2.) can cause a lot of trouble. But if one goes down the Absolute Solipsism and "its all imagined" path probably tends to or even has to that move.

But both perspectives contain (partial) truths. As is to be expected, because "at" the Absolute/Infinite level all dualities/language/descriptions/system just collapse. One throws them over board at the right time, not before. Until then, they are very useful.

Selling Water by the River

[Salvijus]

@Water by the River

If i got it right, you're basicly saying that manifestaion is not different than nothingness. I get it. You don't need to keep explaining it ? I still think it is not related to my original post tho.

39 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Mahamudra and Dzogchen for example quite efficiently directly train the Nondual Awakening, and not giving Nirvana/Causal/Cessation states the importance it had in early Buddhism (and partially still has in Theravada).

I heard a good argument once on this topic why total cessation has extra importance. It's because suppose there was water mixed with milk, if one wanted to experience what water tastes like, he first would need to evaporate all the milk out of it. Then that one has truly tasted the absolute without any milk in it. Until one experiences a clear dip in total cessation he doesn't know what water tastes likes, he knows a mixture of water and milk only. I thought it's a good thought provoking argument.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Salvijus