is the liberal mind wiser than the conservative mind ?

[Leo Gura]

16 hours ago, trenton said:

There is a knock at the door. You answer the door and find Nazis standing outside. They ask if you have seen any Jews or if there are any Jews hiding in your house. In this scenario there is a Jew hiding in your basement. Would a highly developed person tell the truth in this situation?

That's way too easy.

The answer is no.

That is not a serious test of honesty. That's not what honesty is about.

Edited May 25, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

On 5/24/2023 at 2:09 AM, Leo Gura said:

It's hard to say, and it depends.

It's hard to be dishonest and highly developed.

How about an honorable, hard working, successful conservative like Mitt Romney vs. a hippie who is a lazy loser and has impractical ideas?

Would the hippie still be more mentally developed than a Romney-like conservative?

[Recursoinominado]

2 hours ago, Hardkill said:

hippie who is a lazy loser and has impractical ideas

Well, a "successful conservative" could call Ramana Maharshi all those things, then who is more developed?

[Girzo]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That is not a serious test of honesty. That's not what honesty is about.

But that's how a lot of people unironically treat this concept, radical honesty even more so.

In the past, I had spent 2 hours on telling my friend that "no, Logan Paul doesn't deserve to be called a genius, just because he is popular and managed to scam his viewers twice with NFT scams". Such approach dilutes the category of genius, but people get hung up on that kind of relativism.

[trenton]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

That's not what honesty is about.

I take it you mean that honesty is about showing or living by your true character then?

[gettoefl]

12 hours ago, trenton said:

I take it you mean that honesty is about showing or living by your true character then?

for me its

who gets me

the inner circle who get my inner sanctum, the holy of holies, the raw brutal unvarnished me

it necessitates radical vulnerability

i give all to those i have absolute trust in those who are able to get it those who will provide the mirror i need

why?

if you get it, you understanding, does facilitate the greater deepening

honesty is what begets the deepening of truth

most of course never get me no matter what

honesty is reserved for the rare few

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by gettoefl

[sholomar]

On 5/22/2023 at 11:56 AM, Danioover9000 said:

@Recursoinominado

   Do you agree or disagree with this statement 'ALL conservatives are Nazis'?

I believe a stage yellow thinker can transcend this left/right belief system. When I hear people use the word "nazi" in the same sentence with conservatives I know they are a spiral dynamics stage green thinker, still subject to their particular cult belief systems, though more advanced than the stage orange, blue, and red beneath them, still lacking in some aspects.  It shows a level of brainwashing by popular media as actual conservatives tend not to fit this "right wing nationalist" stereotype no more than a woke person represents a typical left winger.

 I believe stage green don't respect the need for discomfort as a growth tool and self discipline to the degree they should. You can't just give people whatever they want and let them do whatever they want, and give them a bailout every time they make a mistake. This does not result in a good society and culture, because we are still wired with traits given to us through a million years of evolution and still operate best on pavlonian style conditioning. The animal kingdom doesn't revolve around perpetual handouts and an umbrella society. It's survival of the fittest. It's raw, dangerous, competitive, diverse.

I believe stage green don't really respect natural selection and evolution as a whole enough. On the same token I think stage greens are too quick to judge when people don't live up to their expectations. Humans are a flawed species and are wired in a way where we will tend to put our own self interest  first unless we are more highly developed. There is nothing good or bad about this. It just is.  Also, under stress, when the sympathetic nervous system is activated, people will regress to more base level responses to situations.

I'm not really sure what point I meant to make with this point. I was kind of rambling.  I see a lot of stage yellow in myself, but nobody is any single color... human ego gets in the way. Evolution and our DNA gets in the way. There's a lot of "ego" with the stage greens on this forum as an example. Their movement is almost like a religion of it's own. They might have good intentions, but sometimes the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

There is no perfect system to manage human nature in a system designed with entropy in mind (this physical universe and all it's laws) ... we don't incarnate here to live in a paradise... it's more like a video game filled with rules for us to follow, suffering, to see how we respond to stimuli.  You have to large degree play the game by the rules you are given. If you try to resist the rules, you create needless suffering for yourself. You can try to change them, but do you have the power?

What kinds of rules? Our species, it's DNA, the culture in which you are raised, the laws in your country, and things largely outside your control. Fight against these to create needless suffering.  Either do something about the situation, or accept it. All else is madness. Find your peace.

Edited May 26, 2023 by sholomar

[Danioover9000]

@sholomar

1 hour ago, sholomar said:

I believe a stage yellow thinker can transcend this left/right belief system. When I hear people use the word "nazi" in the same sentence with conservatives I know they are a spiral dynamics stage green thinker, still subject to their particular cult belief systems, though more advanced than the stage orange, blue, and red beneath them, still lacking in some aspects.  It shows a level of brainwashing by popular media as actual conservatives tend not to fit this "right wing nationalist" stereotype no more than a woke person represents a typical left winger.

 I believe stage green don't respect the need for discomfort as a growth tool and self discipline to the degree they should. You can't just give people whatever they want and let them do whatever they want, and give them a bailout every time they make a mistake. This does not result in a good society and culture, because we are still wired with traits given to us through a million years of evolution and still operate best on pavlonian style conditioning. The animal kingdom doesn't revolve around perpetual handouts and an umbrella society. It's survival of the fittest. It's raw, dangerous, competitive, diverse.

I believe stage green don't really respect natural selection and evolution as a whole enough. On the same token I think stage greens are too quick to judge when people don't live up to their expectations. Humans are a flawed species and are wired in a way where we will tend to put our own self interest  first unless we are more highly developed. There is nothing good or bad about this. It just is.  Also, under stress, when the sympathetic nervous system is activated, people will regress to more base level responses to situations.

I'm not really sure what point I meant to make with this point. I was kind of rambling.  I see a lot of stage yellow in myself, but nobody is any single color... human ego gets in the way. Evolution and our DNA gets in the way. There's a lot of "ego" with the stage greens on this forum as an example. Their movement is almost like a religion of it's own. They might have good intentions, but sometimes the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

There is no perfect system to manage human nature in a system designed with entropy in mind (this physical universe and all it's laws) ... we don't incarnate here to live in a paradise... it's more like a video game filled with rules for us to follow, suffering, to see how we respond to stimuli.  You have to large degree play the game by the rules you are given. If you try to resist the rules, you create needless suffering for yourself. You can try to change them, but do you have the power?

What kinds of rules? Our species, it's DNA, the culture in which you are raised, the laws in your country, and things largely outside your control. Fight against these to create needless suffering.  Either do something about the situation, or accept it. All else is madness. Find your peace.

   Nice post. The reason why I asked @Recursoinominado if he agreed or disagreed with the statement 'ALL conservatives are Nazis?' is because he's slipping anti conservative points and assumptions of the traditional and conservative right. Also had some points that sounded like Vaush talking points, so I wanted him to engage with my questioning, because if he agreed that ALL conservatives are Nazi, the WW2, when the conservative Americans and conservative British fought against Nazi Germany, Th Americans and British were in fact Nazis. So, if true that GB and USA and all it's allies, are Nazis, then what's the point of them fighting Nazi Germany and sacrificing millions of lives against Nazi ideology? If false that ALL conservatives are Nazis, then false the slogans, marketing and talking points of ALL online leftist streamers and influences, socialists and progressives, which shows a deep lack of integrity and intellectual honesty if they felt they had to bad faith ALL conservatives by calling ALL conservatives Nazis.

[sholomar]

5 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@sholomar

   Nice post. The reason why I asked @Recursoinominado if he agreed or disagreed with the statement 'ALL conservatives are Nazis?' is because he's slipping anti conservative points and assumptions of the traditional and conservative right. Also had some points that sounded like Vaush talking points, so I wanted him to engage with my questioning, because if he agreed that ALL conservatives are Nazi, the WW2, when the conservative Americans and conservative British fought against Nazi Germany, Th Americans and British were in fact Nazis. So, if true that GB and USA and all it's allies, are Nazis, then what's the point of them fighting Nazi Germany and sacrificing millions of lives against Nazi ideology? If false that ALL conservatives are Nazis, then false the slogans, marketing and talking points of ALL online leftist streamers and influences, socialists and progressives, which shows a deep lack of integrity and intellectual honesty if they felt they had to bad faith ALL conservatives by calling ALL conservatives Nazis.

On 5/22/2023 at 11:56 AM, Danioover9000 said:

@Recursoinominado

   Do you agree or disagree with this statement 'ALL conservatives are Nazis'?

I see politics like a horseshoe. The extreme left and right have more in common with each other than anyone in the middle, and tend to lean either anarchist, authoritarian, or a combination. They are lower in the spiral dynamics scale due to fear, jealousy, anger, or other negative emotions, and basically want a society in which everyone is like them, because it makes them feel more comfortable. Diversity is a threat to them.

Most Germans in Germany did not actually support Hitler. If you read up on how he achieved power, it was almost entirely by happenstance.

https://www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/how-did-adolf-hitler-happen

He ruled through fear, like all authoritarian leaders do. People did what they were told, because to not do so was to risk yourself or your family. It didn't help the nasty reparations Germans were made to pay after World War 1. There's a lot to it the history books don't talk about. History is written by the victors. There was blame to go around.

 

Edited May 26, 2023 by sholomar

[Recursoinominado]

1 hour ago, sholomar said:

I see politics like a horseshoe. The extreme left and right have more in common with each other than anyone in the middle

That's horseshit.

The extreme right: kill everyone that isn't like us.

The radical left: we want everyone to have a home, food on the table and a decent living.

Dumbasses: hmmm they look the same to me.

[Danioover9000]

@Recursoinominado

1 hour ago, Recursoinominado said:

That's horseshit.

The extreme right: kill everyone that isn't like us.

The radical left: we want everyone to have a home, food on the table and a decent living.

Dumbasses: hmmm they look the same to me.

   How is it horseshit that both the extreme left and right are not the same? They're both extremes right?

   How is this simplistic stereotyping of the extreme left and radical left show the comparisons and contrasts enough for @sholomar to understand where you're coming from? Also, which extreme right and radical left are you referring to make this stereotyped comparison?

   How is bad faith tactics like calling other people dumbasses for both siding the extreme left and right a good faith approach? It only increases defensiveness from my POV. 

   I think you need to change your Buddha profile picture, you're not behaving like a saint or Buddhists or at least a common sense decent person with these simplistic conflations and character assassinations.

Edited May 26, 2023 by Danioover9000

[Recursoinominado]

26 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   How is it horseshit that both the extreme left and right are not the same? They're both extremes right?

Trump and Ramana Maharshi are both extremes, they are the same, right?

[Tanz]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:54 PM, StarStruck said:

Liberals are like fruit. Conservatives are like vegetables. 

Good analogy.  

 

[Schizophonia]

13 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

That's horseshit.

The extreme right: kill everyone that isn't like us.

The radical left: we want everyone to have a home, food on the table and a decent living.

Dumbasses: hmmm they look the same to me.

No, people vote "far right" because they don't want to be racially overridden and because 90% of crimes are committed by non-white people.

It is also a vision of the world in its own right.

+ She is not completely wrong, where I am the extreme right is not liberal and looks like a form of disguised duginism , most of the time.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Schizophonia

[Leo Gura]

The horseshoe theory is true not at the level of content, but at the level of structure. Both the extreme right and left are dogmatic, judgmental, ideological, demonizing, impractical, arrogant, unwilling to compromise, and fundamentally misunderstands the other side.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Danioover9000]

@Recursoinominado

10 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

Trump and Ramana Maharshi are both extremes, they are the same, right?

   If true that both are extremes then they're the same category under extreme.

   Check this out yo, you said this:

12 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

That's horseshit.

The extreme right: kill everyone that isn't like us.

The radical left: we want everyone to have a home, food on the table and a decent living.

Dumbasses: hmmm they look the same to me.

   And this is Leo's response:

@Leo Gura

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

The horseshoe theory is true not at the level of content, but at the level of structure. Both the extreme right and left are dogmatic, judgmental, ideological, demonizing, impractical, arrogant, unwilling to compromise, and fundamentally misunderstands the other side.

   I rest my case! This is exactly what I was eluding to to you, but you too triggered and defensive and biased that you misinterpreted me, so when you're admin disagrees with you, you should know you did something wrong in your logic.

[Juan]

34 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

so when you're admin disagrees with you, you should know you did something wrong in your logic.

Not always

[Recursoinominado]

2 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

   I rest my case! This is exactly what I was eluding to to you, but you too triggered and defensive and biased that you misinterpreted me, so when you're admin disagrees with you, you should know you did something wrong in your logic.

The Radical Left is still more developed than conservatives, that was always my point.

Radical left intentions stems from, fundamentally, extreme empathy for the 99% and hate for the 1%.

Their bias is toward the people and yes they are irresolute because they have to be.

Institutional left is just too weak and compromise too much, that's why, historically, the left is mostly on the lose side.

The socialis/communist i know and follow are the smartest people i know, their political inteligence and kwoledge of how politcs and society works is amazing.

On the other side...

Extreme Right intentions are born from hate and fear for everyone that doesn't look like them, their circle of empathy is really small, meanining they are only biased toward themselves and their group. 

The extreme right leaders and commentators are always dumb as fuck, appealing to lies, con-artistry, instilling fear (with lies) and, ultmatelly, power hungry, narcisists, sociopaths, psychopaths etc.

Extreme right politics is pure shit.

They are NOT the same.

Being a conservative is saying: shit to me is good, i don't want it to change, fuck everyone else.

Being a leftist is: shit to me MAY be good, but i want it to be good to everyone else and this may piss the ones who are privilleged today.

And i don't say "liberals" because being a liberal ins't the same as being left leaning. 

Here in Brazil our Liberals are conservatives (yeah, lol).

As we say: "liberal in the economy and conservative in the costumes/morals".

That means that our liberals are righ-wings and are concern with minimizing the power of the State in order to not invest money in social matters (education, health, housing, work rights and all of that). 

Our "liberals" are mostly christians, in favor of "traditional values" (aka white straight male centered).

And i am a white straight male.

I have privileges, things are not so bad to me but if i am intellectually honest, things are terrible to most people that doesn't look like me, i can't be right-wing.

Edited May 27, 2023 by Recursoinominado

[Danioover9000]

@Juan

7 hours ago, Juan said:

Not always

   Not relevant.

[Schizophonia]

6 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

The Radical Left is still more developed than conservatives, that was always my point.

Radical left intentions stems from, fundamentally, extreme empathy for the 99% and hate for the 1%.

Their bias is toward the people and yes they are irresolute because they have to be.

Institutional left is just too weak and compromise too much, that's why, historically, the left is mostly on the lose side.

The socialis/communist i know and follow are the smartest people i know, their political inteligence and kwoledge of how politcs and society works is amazing.

On the other side...

Extreme Right intentions are born from hate and fear for everyone that doesn't look like them, their circle of empathy is really small, meanining they are only biased toward themselves and their group. 

The extreme right leaders and commentators are always dumb as fuck, appealing to lies, con-artistry, instilling fear (with lies) and, ultmatelly, power hungry, narcisists, sociopaths, psychopaths etc.

Extreme right politics is pure shit.

They are NOT the same.

Being a conservative is saying: shit to me is good, i don't want it to change, fuck everyone else.

Being a leftist is: shit to me MAY be good, but i want it to be good to everyone else and this may piss the ones who are privilleged today.

And i don't say "liberals" because being a liberal ins't the same as being left leaning. 

Here in Brazil our Liberals are conservatives (yeah, lol).

As we say: "liberal in the economy and conservative in the costumes/morals".

That means that our liberals are righ-wings and are concern with minimizing the power of the State in order to not invest money in social matters (education, health, housing, work rights and all of that). 

Our "liberals" are mostly christians, in favor of "traditional values" (aka white straight male centered).

And i am a white straight male.

I have privileges, things are not so bad to me but if i am intellectually honest, things are terrible to most people that doesn't look like me, i can't be right-wing.