Going from Unitive-States (already Nondual) to True No-Self Nonduality, or waking up

[Water by the River]

A nice post from Frank Yang on Bernadette Roberts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Roberts ).

https://www.instagram.com/p/CsJMKS6uNZf/

 

True No-Self is not the No-Self of no Ego, or No-Person, not even the No-Self of the Unitive States, or "being" a Nondual/Unitive Infinite (mere appearance) Field (that still contains an awareness (a separate self with individuality is having, subject) of an infinite empty nondual field ("object"), for example induced temporarily by psychedelics).

True No-Self is the final death (or transcendece) of any form of the separate self, crossing over to Infinite Fully Empty Impersonal Nothingness/Consciousness, or Full Enlightenment.

"There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all". - Kalu Rinpoche

True No-Self can not be understood before fully waking up, before Great or Final Enlightenment, where any reamaining separate self fully dies/gets transcended, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness unseparable of its appearances arising within in. That last deep identity change is not gradual, but sudden. Unexpected. And has nothing beyond it. 

The dropping of the separate self can not (by definition) be imagined or understood before it finally happening, see the yellow markings above.

• Because who would do the imagining? A separate self (in whatever version). Which has to be gone to fully wake up. So the separate self can't do the imagining how it "would be like" to be gone. It is the "thing" doing/being the imagining.
  • "Incapable of conceiving its own non existence", see text above.

When one walks down the unitive states road to the end, boosted by Psychedelics, one can end up with forms of solipsism, and even further with an Infinity of Gods. A confusion of that with the Absolute, or Fully Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, certain separate self aspects still left untranscended. Which then kill the unitive and nondual state of this separate self/unity-state-identity/God within an Infinity of Gods/Alien/n+1 when coming out of the trip.

Necessary for that confusion (some form of pre-trans confusion to use the wording of Ken Wilber) is, among other confusions, to misidentitfy True No-Self:

• not True No-Self (the death/transcendence of any and all separate self/Individuality arisings, resulting in fully empty IMPERSONAL Consciousness/Nothingness/Absolute)
• but with some lower forms of "No-Self", like No-Ego, No-Person, No-separate-body-mind (but nondual), No-Self of Unitive States up to a very subtle and empty transparent Witness (already nondual, being the nondual infinite field), but with some Individuality still left.

The last dropping/transcending/-seeing as objects arising in ones True Self- of

• identity, center, localization,
• any forms of individuality-arisings, very very subtle feelings or awareness OF Emptiness, OF an infinite universe being seen, awareness OF being, awareness of anything

is what finally brings this sudden crossing over to ones Real Identity. Waking up, Enlightenment, fully empty and impersonal Consciousness/Reality. And that is where there is nowhere further to go (no n+1, no new Awakenings), final peace and liberation are to be found. In ones True Identity.

And that is why stopping short, and declaring that stopping short (New Awakening n+1) as higher as that crossing over to ones Real Identity (Nothingness), is a dangerous pre-trans-confusion, which doesn't lead to ones True Being and final liberation and the end of suffering, but a continued grasping and suffering for ever higher and newer "Awakenings" not into emptiness/Nothingness, but form/manifestation, and how the manifestation/imagining process is structured.

And for those not even walking this (psychedelic-) path, but basking in proliferating mere (retold) concepts or stories about this path, ending in Solipsism and Infinity of Gods, it doesn't even deliver the transcendence and beauty that these unitive and infinite psychedelic states bring. But something on a spectrum ranging from suffering to madness.

The spiritual path is the transcendence of the separate self, its death or letting go, once and for all. Neti Neti, until fully being everything, because one has become the real Nothing/ness. Not the blowing up of the separate-self to infinite God-like-solipsistic dimension. That would be the other direction, leading not to freedom and love, but to suffering and closing down. Directly into the cycle of merciless suffering and dissatisfaction, being caught in the prison of the claws of the separate self/ego/self-contraction. That is what makes this pre/trans-confusion (at least in the perspective of yours truly) very very dangerous. 

And now, for those disagreeing, the Bear-and-Empty-Mirror thing (signature link) please 

Selling Water by the River

 

PS: And to end a bit "lighter": A Samsara/Lila consisting of separate selves necessarily needs continuing Illusion/Ignorance concerning ones True Identity. So for the fraction that will for sure not change its mind just because there is Water being sold at the River (posting above), and still prefers to continue with a certain solipsistic-messiah complex, yours truly would recommend considering doing it with style: Something like the very charming and apparently very attractive for the ladies - style of Russell Brand: 

Then, at least, its very charming . Less capital letters, less exclamation-marks, less angry criticism, blaming and calling names, but truck-loads of charm, (especially) with the opposite sex!

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!! OMG you're so deluded!!! HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just sayin'.

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Bazooka Jesus

[Water by the River]

1 minute ago, Bazooka Jesus said:

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! You're so deluded!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just sayin'.

 

 Really had to laugh. 

[Guest Bazooka Jesus]

@Water by the River

You think I am joking?! YOU THINK I AM JOKING?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Yes I am.

[Water by the River]

Some Quotes from Stephen Wolinski, The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute.

Below are some quite poetic pointers on how the last separate-self-identities or arisings (very subtle ones at that stage, which is very close before crossing over to Enlightenment) appear and get transcended. They are already very empty and quite impersonal (of personal stuff/Ego), and can and normally are already nondual, or unitive states.

Wolinski calls them Portals to the Absolute,

• because it is in these Portals/states/last separate self identities where the "ripening" of Awakened Awareness (= technical Mahamudra term, standing for totally Empty Impersonal Nondual Boundless Timeless Consciousness) happens,
• which still has some layers/arisings at that ripening stage of some very subtle "Individuality" preventing full Enlightenment, or crossing over, 
• until finally transcending even these last illusion layers, and then sudden crossing over to waking up /Enlightenment happens.

One can not "push" through them with willforce, or artificial activity. Because that would generate more subtle separate-self arisings (will/trying to do/pushing something IS a separate-self arising, is artifical activity). But with something like Nonmeditation-Yoga of the Mahamudrasystem, one just rests in Pure Empty Impersonal Boundless Nondual Consciousness (or nondual unitive state Reality at that point in time), and lets these last veils evaporate. 

What is very helpful (at least for me) is the understanding (or a map) what these very subtle last separate self identities/veils are and how they work, because they are very hard to spot.

No-Self is not automatically True No-Self, or Nothingness.

And if one confuses

• the final Impersonal Empty No-Self of Enlightenment
• with some No-Self/Portal still loaded with subtle separate-self-identies,

one does not cross over to Enlightenment, or finding the Real Empty Impersonal Infinite No-Self of Absolute Consciousness/Nothingness, the essence of all appearance. Ones True Deep Identity of the Universal Mind, the One without a second , Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, or: Nothingness.

 

And now Stephen Wolinski (The formating is like this, because it is like this in the book, and increases its readability):

"THE NO-SELF SELF I-DENTITY
The appearance of
the perceiver,
aware-er,
knower
observer,
witness
no-self self,
the position-less position
the no-point point of view
the non-being being etc.

These subtle Identities often times remain unnoticed because they appear in such a pleasant form such as:
Silence, a peaceful space
The space between two thoughts
The gap without thoughts memory emotions associations etc."

 

and

 

"Often times, the Appearance of a Portal
which is a State
requiring a Knower
is a Phenomenological Appearance.
Any Portal can mistakenly be confused as being the Absolute.
All portals and spiritual paths are appearances
and
are experiences requiring an experience-er…
Portals are appearances that are labels which carry with them an associational
network of thoughts, memories, emotions, associations etc.
Portals Appear to Appear in the Dream-Illusion. [that is, they appear in Infinite Reality as arising/appearance, temporarily. Portals/states like the appearance of the perceiver, aware-er, knower, observer, witness, no-self self,]
Eventually, the appearance of Portals
as well as the appearance on which the portal appears
which could be called or named
the No-self-self Identity,
the No-Position Position,
The No Point-Point of View,
the Vortex appearing on the Ocean of Existence
The Witness
The Being(ness)
All Evaporates…
Prior to all appearances
Prior to the Absolute…
Prior to I Am THAT
The Nameless Absolute…that which is prior to and without consciousness,
awareness, knowingness, being-ness, form or emptiness"

"Please note that the stillness etc. is a
by-product of the no-self self Identity
and that a no self-self Identity,
aka a position-less position
aka or a no-point point of view
are all part of the appearance.
In this way the appearance and the perceiver, knower/aware-er, witness,
observer or a no-self self identity position-less position or a no-point point of
view
etc. is part of the appearance.
In other words, they arise and subside together.
Moreover the perceiver, knower/aware-er, witness, observer or no-self self
identity etc. is part of and fixated and fascinated on the something-nothing or
appearance disappearance game (to be discussed later).

...

Realizing this leads to the appreciation you can deconstruct appearances ad
nauseum and still end up continuing to deconstruct appearances. In other
words there is no way out of the loop, without the evaporation of the
perceiver, know-er, aware-er aka no-self-self identity etc. which is
experienced as stillness, peacefulness, presence or I am etc.

...

Finally, feeling like a separate self or feeling a “non-dual” self or feeling are
both states. There is the dual identity and a non-dual identity. the dual
identity and a non-dual identity are states and are perceiver, knower awarer
dependent, and are appearances ... [appearing in Reality/Absolute]

"

"It is the appearance that appears to appear as a witness or a know-er or an
aware-er etc. which is part of the illusion.
All of the appearances of the witness, knower, aware-er, perceive-er observer
etc.) are appearances, temporary illusory-mirage like appearances which
contains the illusion of stability, solid(ness) and permanency.
This illusion functions to stabilize the illusory dream of existence, isness,
and/or beingness."

 

Selling Water by the River

[nhoktinvt]

jesus christ

[Water by the River]

Further Quotes Stephen Wolinski, The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute., 

"As an Aside: When asked at many workshops, “How do you know if you are in an Identity?” I always answered, “If you feel special or different from another you are in an Identity.”

And that is why Narcicissm prevents Enlightenment. 

• Narcicissm = feeling special or grandiose.
• And Solipsism tends to boost Narcicissm.
  • "hey, its all me. How awesome"
    • but stated not from the True Empty Impersonal Infinite True Self (that doesn't state anything, because its 100% empty impersonal Nothingness, but contains all arising statements, so such a statement is pretty pointless), but
    • from the false Illusion separate self.

Selling Water by the River

[Water by the River]

8 minutes ago, nhoktinvt said:

jesus christ

too many letters at once?  Love the formatting?  I know....

Please feel invited to eat/read as much as one likes at a buffet. And ignore the rest. Not that there is an "intellectual throw-up" or something of the like. Today, many many letters for the Aficionados...

Selling Water by the River

[WeCome1]

16 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Stephen Wolinski, The End of the Game - Deconstructing the Portals to the Absolute.

I used to fall asleep every night for the best part of 2021 to the soothing sounds of "... To what appearance the appearance that appears appears to appear to?.." Good times

No intention to derail the thread, but I just want to take this opportunity to say that you are cool, @Water by the River . You and your formatting

[Water by the River]

17 hours ago, WeCome1 said:

... and your formatting

thank you 

[Breakingthewall]

I'd say that nothing is imaginary. the ultimate reality is the absence of limits, and nothingness is limitation, since it excludes something. non-limitation is the infinite absolute, and I am that. only that exists, it is total freedom and I am aware of it at this moment, it is obvious. here and now infinity is and cannot be otherwise for the obvious reason that real limitations are impossible. the limitations are apparent and are what create the apparent reality that seems to be occurring in time. the absence of limitation is absolute life, absolute freedom, absolute love, because it includes everything . whoever realizes the absolute is the only one that exists, but his infinity excludes any solitude. there is no other, but as in a game of mirrors, there are infinite perspectives. you cannot understand it in a linear or superficial way. To believe that you have done so is the delusion of religion, the fanaticism of the fool who believes that he has deduced the truth with the basic software of the language. transcending this is easy, you just need to humble yourself.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Water by the River]

53 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

I'd say that nothing is imaginary. the ultimate reality is the absence of limits, and nothingness is limitation, since it excludes something. non-limitation is the infinite absolute, and I am that. 

Yes, understand & agree.

" the absence of limitation is absolute life, absolute freedom, absolute love, because it includes everything . whoever realizes the absolute is the only one that exists, but his infinity excludes any solitude. there is no other, but as in a game of mirrors, there are infinite perspectives. you cannot understand it in a linear or superficial way".  That is  beautiful. And the "one" who realizes the Absolute is gone... replaced by the Infinite Totality that was always already the case. The previous separate self is seen through/transcended/emptied out/dead. A functional character remaining, but the separate self gone. Because how could IT be the Infinite Totality when "anything" separate or individual/individuality still arise&moves in it.... That is why some say no one realizes the Absolute, and that there can not be an enlightened person.

I use Nothingness in the definition of  Andrew Halaw, to contrast it with Nothing. Nothing has a opposite: Something. Nothingness is neither existence nor non-existence. Madhyamaka-style. Neither existing nor non-existing, nor both, nor neither. Infinite.

Infinite Consciousness, or the One without a second. But that already says too much "positive" about "It".

 

Andrew Halaw in "God is Nothingness":

"This book is about Nothingness, the great Void of the holy sages, not to be confused with the nothing of the ordinary person.

Silence. A blank page or space in a book. A shout. Slapping the table or thumping the floor. These are all expressions of the ineffable truth that is theuniversal nature of reality. Since there is no way to directly capture the highest truth with language, all we can do is point to it.

And “Nothingness” is the best verbal pointer that I have found."

In the beginning, there was only Nothing.
Now there is only Nothing.
In the end, there will be only Nothing.

There always was, is,
and only ever will be
Nothing.

God is Nothingness
Christ is Nothingness
Buddha is Nothingness
The Tao is Nothingness
Brahman is Nothingness
The Absolute is Nothingness

Nothingness is neither something nor the common nothing;
it is the Great Nothing, the eternal, magnificent, all-encompassing
Nothingness that transcends being,
yet is the ground from which existence itself arises.

In truth, there is only Nothingness,
for nothing else ever was.

Beings suffer because they do
not understand Nothing.
Intoxicated by their senses and minds,
they chase mirages,
construct temples,
conduct empty rituals,
pursue wealth and status,
believing that there is something
—meaning, purpose, salvation—
to attain.

Fools are slaves to their senses and thoughts,
caught in the snare of form and desire,
unaware that all things
arise from Nothingness,
abide as Nothingness,
and return to Nothingness.

For nothing has ever happened.

Existence and appearance are flashes of Nothingness
superimposed upon Nothingness.

There are no beings, no worlds,
no minds, no consciousness,
no souls, no events, no time,
no space, no Buddha, no Christ,
no Self, no God.

There is only the not-‘that’ That—
the Great, Magnificent Void,
the womb of all existence.

NOTHINGNESS.

Bound by neither space nor time,
Nothingness is dimension-less,
time-less, and form-less.

The Void is unborn, unoriginated, unconditioned, and deathless,
neither coming nor going, ‘creating’ nor destroying, rewarding nor punishing.
It has never set anything in motion nor caused anything to happen.

Ultimately, there is only Nothing,
which is the final and only truth.

Nothingness cannot be seen with eyes,
nor heard with ears,
tasted with the tongue,
smelt with the nose,
felt by the body,
or known by the mind.

Do not look for it with your senses or mind,
for the Void is beyond color, sound,
smell, taste, touch, form, and
thought.

Transcend them and realize that you are truly
Nothing, that in reality
there is only Nothing.

Then you are free to dance and play
on the waves of Nothingness.

"

and

"

Nothingness is not sheer blankness, yet neither is it being-ness the way that we ordinarily understand existence; it is the source and true nature of all beings. This is the “vast emptiness, nothing holy” of Bodhidharma, the legendary founder of Ch’an, Sǒn, and Zen Buddhism.

Consciousness is neither present nor absent in Nothingness, for Nothingness is actually the root of consciousness. In truth, there is no such thing as consciousness; there is only Nothingness.

Consciousness is instantiated Nothingness, as is all of existence.

Frightened dullards, clinging to notions of existence, call Nothingness “nihilism,” unaware that Nothing is the exact opposite of deathly sterility; Non-being is the great womb from which everything arises, abides, and eventually returns. From a Buddhist perspective, “Emptiness is not a negative idea, nor does it mean mere privation, but as it is not in the realm of names and forms, it is called emptiness, or nothingness, or the Void” (Suzuki 60).

Sunyata, as Nothingness can be called in Buddhism, or Tao in Taoism, sustains everything, including consciousness. It is the vast, empty void of Non-existence that the Buddha calls Nirvana, meaning “extinction” of all ‘being.’ It is what Nisargadatta Maharaj points to when he speaks of ‘Universal Consciousness’ or what Huang Po calls ‘Mind.’

Nothingness is prior to consciousness, as it is is with all phenomena. This is why Huang Po says, “Mind in itself is not mind” (Blofeld 34), meaning that the mind is truly understood only when its own emptiness is realized. For mind is Nothingness occurring as consciousness. When this is properly realized, mind become Mind with a capital “M,” not in the sense that some latent quality has been discovered that it is somehow beyond all conditioning, like some eternal super Consciousness or Witness at the base of our mind; but in the sense that when we realize our own universality as Nothingness, we awaken to our own unlimited nature. This is what sages mean when they talk about “primordial consciousness”; it is the realization that our minds transcend beingness alone, by extending into the core nor Non-being, into Nothingness itself. The mind, in effect, is simultaneously limitless (transcendent) and viscerally present (immanent). Hence, Nisargadatta calls it “Universal Consciousness” to express the insight into the universal Nothingness of our minds.

Nothingness creates, supports, animates, and eventually recalls everything, yet is not bound to any single thing. It is the stars, but not limited to them. It is the earth and all of its inhabitants, but is not confined to them.

Nothingness is the true nature of all existence. The Buddha, the Awakened One, is also called Tathata, meaning, “One who has arrived at suchness,”
suchness being another term for the ineffable, mysterious reality of Nonbeing, sunyata, or Nothingness.

We have risen from Nothingness, and to Nothingness we shall return. Therefore, ultimately there is no movement or nothing that ever happens, for everything is in fact Nothingness. “That which is before you is it, in all its fullness, utterly complete” (37). And yet the world continues to change and transform; the seasons come and go; people are born, grow old and die.

Nothing changes and yet everything happens.

Divinity expresses itself as an acorn, a mustard seed, a lump of coal. Humans, including their toils and vices, are all manifestations of the wondrous Nothingness. “Nothing[ness] is the inexhaustible, suprasensible power underlying all finite beings,” “the emptiness from which all beings are forged” (Chen 90, 92).

Nothingness sings as birds, sighs as the wind, breathes as humans, and knows as mind. Once this is realized, there is nothing to worry about, for everything is an expression of Nothing. As the seminal Buddhist scripture, the Heart Sutra, says, “Form is Emptiness; Emptiness is Form.”

Your truest nature is Nothingness. Mind and consciousness are in fact Nothingness. This is why Ch’an Master Linji called the Enlightened being a “person of no rank,” someone who can come and go freely. “No rank” means no fixed limitation, free and vast as the sky, bound by neither ‘being’ nor even Non-being.

This is the infinite Nothingness of the sages.

"

and, maybe most important, Appendex I: Nothingness (Infinite Consciousness) has the potential for sentience/awareness, to have awareness arise if an "object"-arising happens. Or perceptions perceiving themselves, with our without separate-self arisings. So it is not Nothing, like in nothing at all. But infinite potential + potential for sentience of "that". See also Benthinos Water-Pistol emerging/manifested in an infinite empty vastness.

"

Appendix I
Some readers may be wondering why I say that awareness is not the Absolute, despite the fact that so many ancient scriptures and eminent teachers say that they are identical. For instance, Nisargadatta taught that consciousness is rooted in (and therefore limited to) the physical human form, while awareness transcended the individual body and was actually the Absolute—that everything is Universal Consciousness.

This is more of an instructive approach than a philosophical commitment. If pressed as to whether the Absolute is awareness or not, I would say, like Huang Po did, that, “Mind is not mind, yet neither is it no-mind.”

In Nothingness, there is some degree of awareness present—it is not how most people imagine brain death—albeit unconditioned, object- and subjectless. The Consciousness (for lack of a better word) of Non-being is so subtle that the moment we try to reflect upon it to check if we are conscious, we are jarred back into ‘being’ and into our ordinary dualistic consciousness. I hesitate even to call this experience “pure subjectivity,” for that invites a metaphysical position that I am not willing to support.

In the end, to paraphrase Socrates, all that I know is Nothing.

This Consciousness has shed all of the characteristics that people normally identify with awareness, such as perspective, spatial and temporal contexts, objects, ownership, etc. Yet, if there were no awareness, then it would be impossible to differentiate the numinous Nothingness from how people conventionally conceive of blankness or being comatose.

Personally, I think that differentiating between Nothingness and consciousness is helpful, and that is my ultimate goal—to help people realize Non-being or Absolute Consciousness. At that point, I can care less whether people call it Nothingness, God, Brahman, Buddha Nature, One Mind, Universal Consciousness, or a kangaroo.

Names at that point, after the Absolute has been realized, are insignificant.

"

Since this is the first thread I started myself, I allow myself the liberty to blow it up with a waaaay to long ramling like the one above. Hope nobody minds... 

Selling Water by the River

Edited May 21, 2023 by Water by the River

[Inliytened1]

On 5/20/2023 at 7:26 AM, Water by the River said:

A nice post from Frank Yang on Bernadette Roberts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernadette_Roberts ).

https://www.instagram.com/p/CsJMKS6uNZf/

 

True No-Self is not the No-Self of no Ego, or No-Person, not even the No-Self of the Unitive States, or "being" a Nondual/Unitive Infinite (mere appearance) Field (that still contains an awareness (a separate self with individuality is having, subject) of an infinite empty nondual field ("object"), for example induced temporarily by psychedelics).

True No-Self is the final death (or transcendece) of any form of the separate self, crossing over to Infinite Fully Empty Impersonal Nothingness/Consciousness, or Full Enlightenment.

"There is a reality. We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all". - Kalu Rinpoche

True No-Self can not be understood before fully waking up, before Great or Final Enlightenment, where any reamaining separate self fully dies/gets transcended, Infinite Impersonal Consciousness unseparable of its appearances arising within in. That last deep identity change is not gradual, but sudden. Unexpected. And has nothing beyond it. 

The dropping of the separate self can not (by definition) be imagined or understood before it finally happening, see the yellow markings above.

• Because who would do the imagining? A separate self (in whatever version). Which has to be gone to fully wake up. So the separate self can't do the imagining how it "would be like" to be gone. It is the "thing" doing/being the imagining.
  • "Incapable of conceiving its own non existence", see text above.

When one walks down the unitive states road to the end, boosted by Psychedelics, one can end up with forms of solipsism, and even further with an Infinity of Gods. A confusion of that with the Absolute, or Fully Empty Impersonal Infinite Consciousness, certain separate self aspects still left untranscended. Which then kill the unitive and nondual state of this separate self/unity-state-identity/God within an Infinity of Gods/Alien/n+1 when coming out of the trip.

Necessary for that confusion (some form of pre-trans confusion to use the wording of Ken Wilber) is, among other confusions, to misidentitfy True No-Self:

• not True No-Self (the death/transcendence of any and all separate self/Individuality arisings, resulting in fully empty IMPERSONAL Consciousness/Nothingness/Absolute)
• but with some lower forms of "No-Self", like No-Ego, No-Person, No-separate-body-mind (but nondual), No-Self of Unitive States up to a very subtle and empty transparent Witness (already nondual, being the nondual infinite field), but with some Individuality still left.

The last dropping/transcending/-seeing as objects arising in ones True Self- of

• identity, center, localization,
• any forms of individuality-arisings, very very subtle feelings or awareness OF Emptiness, OF an infinite universe being seen, awareness OF being, awareness of anything

is what finally brings this sudden crossing over to ones Real Identity. Waking up, Enlightenment, fully empty and impersonal Consciousness/Reality. And that is where there is nowhere further to go (no n+1, no new Awakenings), final peace and liberation are to be found. In ones True Identity.

And that is why stopping short, and declaring that stopping short (New Awakening n+1) as higher as that crossing over to ones Real Identity (Nothingness), is a dangerous pre-trans-confusion, which doesn't lead to ones True Being and final liberation and the end of suffering, but a continued grasping and suffering for ever higher and newer "Awakenings" not into emptiness/Nothingness, but form/manifestation, and how the manifestation/imagining process is structured.

And for those not even walking this (psychedelic-) path, but basking in proliferating mere (retold) concepts or stories about this path, ending in Solipsism and Infinity of Gods, it doesn't even deliver the transcendence and beauty that these unitive and infinite psychedelic states bring. But something on a spectrum ranging from suffering to madness.

The spiritual path is the transcendence of the separate self, its death or letting go, once and for all. Neti Neti, until fully being everything, because one has become the real Nothing/ness. Not the blowing up of the separate-self to infinite God-like-solipsistic dimension. That would be the other direction, leading not to freedom and love, but to suffering and closing down. Directly into the cycle of merciless suffering and dissatisfaction, being caught in the prison of the claws of the separate self/ego/self-contraction. That is what makes this pre/trans-confusion (at least in the perspective of yours truly) very very dangerous. 

And now, for those disagreeing, the Bear-and-Empty-Mirror thing (signature link) please 

Selling Water by the River

 

PS: And to end a bit "lighter": A Samsara/Lila consisting of separate selves necessarily needs continuing Illusion/Ignorance concerning ones True Identity. So for the fraction that will for sure not change its mind just because there is Water being sold at the River (posting above), and still prefers to continue with a certain solipsistic-messiah complex, yours truly would recommend considering doing it with style: Something like the very charming and apparently very attractive for the ladies - style of Russell Brand: 

Then, at least, its very charming . Less capital letters, less exclamation-marks, less angry criticism, blaming and calling names, but truck-loads of charm, (especially) with the opposite sex!

What I fear for you is the sandtrap of becoming overly immersed in concept.  All of this is nice- but it is merely a map and not the territory.  You must become God - not try to capture God with theory.  And what you are doing here lately is getting lost in theory to the point where it has become an obsession.   You have the theory down - indeed you do.  And your intuition has guided you properly to the place where you need to be.  But now, linger not.  Now only becoming a mystic awaits.   Mysticism is where you must go now.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Inliytened1

[OldManCorcoran]

I guess there's no point in trying to see it because we are already seeing it just through a cloud of ego.

Of course there isn't anybody who sees sights. It's too difficult to remove the ego from the equation when sights are seen, but maybe that doesn't really matter.

It really feels so much that I have always been here and me, it feels like if someone sees the same sight as me, it is a different person seeing that sight. It's not true but it's impossibly hard to comprehend it any other way...

[Water by the River]

39 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

What I fear for you is the sandtrap of becoming overly immersed in concept.  All of this is nice- but it is merely a map and not the territory.  You must become God - not try to capture God with theory.  And what you are doing here lately is getting lost in theory to the point where it has become an obsession.   You have the theory down - indeed you do.  And your intuition has guided you properly to the place where you need to be.  But now, linger not.  Now only becoming a mystic awaits.   Mysticism is where you must go now.

Thanks for your message, and don't worry. Every being has its own style. 

I am just writing what I wished I had earlier.

We will see if and for whom that will be beneficial.

There is no other way than to communicate in concepts, words and duality here in this forum. Which is what I try to do as good as possible.

I am very well aware of the limits of concepts and theory, and the limits of any kind of practice (see below, section/link Nonmeditation Yoga). And don't worry for me confusing the map with the territory. Else I wouldn't write about Nothingness (to kill every concept)

 or Madhyamaka

or, in the final stage, kicking out all doing/meditating/anything at all: Nonmeditation-Yoga:

So I appreciate your post, since I myself would have probably considered writing some kind of similiar warning to somebody like yours truly spamming the forum with theory loaded with concepts.

Especially if I would have never seen/intuited the internal state of the theory-concept-factory in real life.

If we would meet person to person, we would not need to speak a word to understand each other. 

Water by the River

[Inliytened1]

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Thanks for your message, and don't worry. Every being has its own style. 

I am just writing what I wished I had earlier.

We will see if and for whom that will be beneficial.

There is no other way than to communicate in concepts, words and duality here in this forum. Which is what I try to do as good as possible.

I am very well aware of the limits of concepts and theory, and the limits of any kind of practice (see below, section/link Nonmeditation Yoga). And don't worry for me confusing the map with the territory. Else I wouldn't write about Nothingness (to kill every concept)

 or Madhyamaka

or, in the final stage, kicking out all doing/meditating/anything at all: Nonmeditation-Yoga:

So I appreciate your post, since I myself would have probably considered writing some kind of similiar warning to somebody like yours truly spamming the forum with theory loaded with concepts.

Especially if I would have never seen/intuited the internal state of the theory-concept-factory in real life.

If we would meet person to person, we would not need to speak a word to understand each other. 

Water by the River

I don't feel that you are spamming at all.  I went back and read again- and I have to say your words are some of the wisest here.  You have captured the Absolute so beautifully- and since it truly cannot be captured - your words become even more beautiful.    Yes, if we meet, no words will need to be said.  Your destiny is to become a mystic, because your ability to describe God is truly mystifying.  And yet, in your descriptions you speak of Pure Awareness - awareness minus the self.  This is so true- but these words, much like Buddhism, miss the Love/Bliss.  For Lovd/Bliss IS Being.  It is Pure, impersonal awareness.   Failure to mention Love/Bliss and Fullness is a failure to accurately describe the Transcendence or the falling away of the self.  Indeed, Oneness must also not be lost here- for Solipsism points at Absolute Oneness.  Non-duality.  But Solipsism must fall to Being, as all things do.  As the realization of Infinity and Nothingness do.   Moreover, Omniscience and Being are bound together, for without Understanding nothing exists.   You are Pure Understanding and Love.  That is the same as Empty Awareness.   

Edited May 21, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

And yet, in your descriptions you speak of Pure Awareness - awareness minus the self.  This is so true- but these words, much like Buddhism, miss the Love/Bliss.  For Lovd/Bliss IS Being.  It is Pure, inpersonal awareness.   Failure to mention Love/Bliss and Fullness is a failure to accurately describe the Transcence or the falling away of the self

Yes, you are right.

In most postings I make already have very long musings mainly coming from the Nothingness/Emptiness/Wisdom/Absolute side of the street.  

That is why I spare the fellow forum members in most cases from even longer posts including the love/compassion/boddhichitta aspect. But these aspects are at least as important, and often more important.

Sat-Chit-Ananda. The bliss and love these higher Awakening States contain. The separate self contraction drowning in the flow of love/bliss of the nondual states.

Here are two of my favourite poems from Meister Eckhart on Waking Up & God & Love .which I have posted several times, because of the utmost importance of love on the path. Please, take a few minutes and watch them. They are really beautiful.

 

the videos see for example linked in the post below:

 

And below are some further musings on the utmost importance of Compassion &Love&Boddhichitta on the path & beyond.

... That is why in all Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhist training systems compassion has a nearly (or fully) equal status to the training of wisdom, transcendence and Awakening. It is considered as an equal companion, laying the foundation, of wisdom/ transcendence/ Awakening/ Enlightenment. Strange, is it, if the same systems consider all the be an Illusion, a magic show? So why do they do that?.... [More in the link below]. 

So,I believe our perspectives align quite well. And I believe because there are some deep structures in the process of waking up to ones True Being, like the flow of Sat-Chit-Ananda and Boddhichitta/Love/Compassion that both comes as side-effect of higher states, but also allows keeping these awake states in daily life more easily if the love/compassion-aspect is actively cultivated.

There is a lot of practice of love and compassion in Buddhism, like in Tonglen or Metta. At least in Mahayana-systems like Tibetan Buddhism. In Therevada there is also, but with a bit lower importance.

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonglen
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitrī

By the way, yours truly is no way married to Buddhism. I am happy to use anything from any tradition that works & makes sense. Lovely book on the topic is for example "Hixon, L: Coming Home: The Experience of Enlightenment in Sacred Traditions", with Enlightenment Examples ranging from Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufi, Kaballa, Plotinus, I-Ching, Christian Mystics to Vedanta/Advaita like Ramana or Ramakrishna. Its always love and emptiness.

1 hour ago, Inliytened1 said:

But Solipsism must fall to Being, as all things do.  As the realization of Infinity and Nothingness do.   Moreover, Omniscience and Being are bound together, for without Understanding nothing exists.   You are Pure Understanding and Love.  That is the same as Empty Awarenes

Very true. Who knows the spring does not drink from the jar. (Hope that works in English )

Water by the River 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Water by the River