There is no boundary between Sober and Not Sober

[Razard86]

I've noticed many of you like to knock people who say they have psychedelic awakening as less valid than sober. But here is the funny thing, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT SOBER IS!!! Science doesn't even know what sober is!!! Science has never proven what sober means and it never can because sober is subjective. 

Watch this video by Leo about Heavy Metals. A lot of this stuff is in food, would you call that being sober? The symptoms he describes? The truth is what a lot of you call sober, could be called drugged up!!! But you are so use to being drugged up you call that sober!!!! 

A person who eats fatty foods, he believes being fat is normal!!! When you take him off fatty foods and he becomes lean and gets more energy that becomes his new baseline. So miss me with this sober non sober awakening. Many of you have so many heavy metals and other substances these companies put in food and water that you have no idea how much your soberness is really just a nice cocktail of drugs.

 

[Yimpa]

1 hour ago, RebornConsciousness said:

IT'S A STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN WHICH I CAN'T JUST CREATE PINK ELEPHANTS OUT OF THIN AIR!!!

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, RebornConsciousness said:

ACTUALLY, I KNOW!!! IT'S WHEN I CAN OBSERVE REALITY IN A SOCIALLY CONSENTUAL WAY!!! IT'S A STATE OF CONSCIOUSNESS IN WHICH I CAN'T JUST CREATE PINK ELEPHANTS OUT OF THIN AIR!!! NOTICE THAT!!!

Are you okay...you do realize socially consentual way....is not even a word. You making up words now? Mind translating for the rest of us? I mean you are so quick to spread your message might as well actually explain it. Also notice what? You do realize your post has no educational value right? So that means....you like to post stupid shit for fun. You know what that is called? It's called trolling....AND I LIKE TROLLS. If I have time I might deconstruct you for fun...depends on my mood. 

[Carl-Richard]

Depends where you draw the boundary.

[Razard86]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

Depends where you draw the boundary.

Exactly!!! You make it up!!! LOL. What we call constructing, or....lying. Remember the phrase "You just made that up" Or here is a good one "I call bullshit you just made that up!" This is what humans do with all identity and explanations. And it is why....their explanations can never hold permanently. Will you base it on heart rate? Blood pressure? Reaction time? Ability to concentrate? How calm you feel emotionally? How energetic you feel? How smooth thoughts come and go? Where is the boundary? LOL.

So funny!!! Miss me with these sober and not sober, you are making it up!!! But sadly....you never created a consistent boundary for what that actually means!!!

THIS is how you contemplate about life, QUESTION EVERY GOT DAMN THING!!! Because sadly....the humans all around you in Science and Academics....question NOTHING. Majority are just drones regurgitating and that is why you must construct your own world view and stop relying on OTHERS. 

Take back your authority people. Also I noticed some idiot wrote a post saying Leo brainwashed me. What he doesn't realize is I REALIZED Absolute Solipsism. I have stated over and over I verified it. My direct experience is LIVED from absolute solipsism. I walked into a Papa John's today and confirmed in my direct experience which I do DAILY that there is only me.

You know how you feel like you are in your body? When you realize Absolute Solipsism you feel every body as YOUR body. So man, women, insect, cat it does not matter I experience all as MY OWN BODY. So who is the one brainwashed? The one who feels whole and complete or the one who runs around in denial that they have never had an experience outside of themselves? 

This is why eventually you drop the human identity because humans are liars who fear the truth and desire delusion over truth.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Razard86

[caspex]

Convincing someone of the sameness of sober and non-sober states will not dispel their argument that psychedelics don't give you true awakenings. To them the states of psychedelics, whether considered sober or non-sober, still move you towards impurity/falsehood while sober realizations towards purity/truth. That's what you have to convince them out of.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Swarnim

[Carl-Richard]

6 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Exactly!!! You make it up!!! LOL.

It's quite obvious actually.

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, Swarnim said:

Convincing someone of the sameness of sober and non-sober states will not dispel their argument that psychedelics don't give you true awakenings. To them the states of psychedelics, whether considered sober or non-sober, still move you towards impurity/falsehood while sober realizations towards purity/truth. That's what you have to convince them out of.

Please re-read what you just wrote please. Because there is no integrity, or agreement in that sentence.

[caspex]

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Please re-read what you just wrote please. Because there is no integrity, or agreement in that sentence.

I should have added double quotes to the "sober". I'll rewrite it to get my point across better, it still means the same thing:

Convincing someone of the sameness of sober and non-sober states will not dispel their argument that psychedelics don't give you true awakenings. To them the states of psychedelics, whether considered sober or non-sober, still move you towards impurity/falsehood while states achieved without psychedelics/"naturally" towards purity/truth. That's what you have to convince them out of.
 

To add more to what I said, to them, the problem is that they think psychedelics induce hallucinatory logic and sense-making.  Telling them that Sober is not some 'true' state compared to other states, and is just one of many states, won't convince them that psychedelics produce states that are 'more true' than sober. They still hold the bias that the 'Sober' state is 'a' if not 'the' true state and all truth can be found from working within this state. This is a bias.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Swarnim

[InfinitePotential]

This topic is an important point. 

When people discredit psychedelic experiences saying the realization one has is due to ingestion of an exogenous substance, I say well, we drink water and eat food, and act like when we are adequately fed and hydrated (and all the other things our body requires), only then is our perception of reality accurate and valid.

In fact, if we were to stop consuming water or food - arguably becoming as sober as possible - we would eventually trip like a mother fucker. 

So, to accurately perceive reality, we have to intake the right amounts of certain things, and nothing of others? Almost seems like our perception of reality is always influenced by our state of mind ?

And, like the original post, with us all walking around with god knows what chemicals lodged in our brains and bodies, can we really call ourselves sober.  

[Jordan]

I thought it was obvious that all boundaries are made up and don't actually exist. It is not like a boundary has a mass. Who is going around thinking boundaries are real here? They are useful for conceptualization though. I guess they are lies in the way we talk and think without realizing we are lying but we need to simplify things somehow. 

[Breakingthewall]

agree, the qualitative difference between sober and not sober is zero. Not because of heavy metals, even though your brain is totally clean, it works with chemicals, only that it has adapted to function like this for millions of years, it could just as well have adapted to function like on an LSD trip. ultimately psychedelics are imaginary. everything is, except the absolute infinite. So, if you realize the absolute, that's it, it doesn't matter how.

[Razard86]

On 5/19/2023 at 11:49 AM, Swarnim said:

I should have added double quotes to the "sober". I'll rewrite it to get my point across better, it still means the same thing:

Convincing someone of the sameness of sober and non-sober states will not dispel their argument that psychedelics don't give you true awakenings. To them the states of psychedelics, whether considered sober or non-sober, still move you towards impurity/falsehood while states achieved without psychedelics/"naturally" towards purity/truth. That's what you have to convince them out of.
 

To add more to what I said, to them, the problem is that they think psychedelics induce hallucinatory logic and sense-making.  Telling them that Sober is not some 'true' state compared to other states, and is just one of many states, won't convince them that psychedelics produce states that are 'more true' than sober. They still hold the bias that the 'Sober' state is 'a' if not 'the' true state and all truth can be found from working within this state. This is a bias.

Your argument is still not held together by integrity so I will adjust it.

They argue that psychedelics states are NOT sober states. I'm arguing that they don't even know what sober is. If they don't know what sober is, how do they know that psychedelics don't make them MORE sober? For example you could microdose a psychedelic and become MORE aware of your surroundings. 

So what they have not realized in their bias is that you could argue with the right dosage that psychedelics could IMPROVE functionality. Someone could get an awakening while being more aware of their body and the surrounding environment. There is even speculation that long term use of psychedelics could expand brain functionality. 

So the psychedelic ain't legit argument hinges on their definition of what sober is, and if you can prove that a psychedelic can improve your baseline functionality then the whole sober v.s. non-sober awakening falls flat on its face. So in truth anybody who is trying to argue against psychedelic awakenings doesn't really have a ground to stand on, they are just making up criteria because of their personal bias.

It's why I said bias lowers your intelligence. It doesn't matter what you use to reach a level, as long as you reach that level. A psychedelic is a tool, and humans have used tools for centuries. 

[caspex]

48 minutes ago, Razard86 said:

Your argument is still not held together by integrity so I will adjust it.

They argue that psychedelics states are NOT sober states. I'm arguing that they don't even know what sober is. If they don't know what sober is, how do they know that psychedelics don't make them MORE sober? For example you could microdose a psychedelic and become MORE aware of your surroundings. 

So what they have not realized in their bias is that you could argue with the right dosage that psychedelics could IMPROVE functionality. Someone could get an awakening while being more aware of their body and the surrounding environment. There is even speculation that long term use of psychedelics could expand brain functionality. 

So the psychedelic ain't legit argument hinges on their definition of what sober is, and if you can prove that a psychedelic can improve your baseline functionality then the whole sober v.s. non-sober awakening falls flat on its face. So in truth anybody who is trying to argue against psychedelic awakenings doesn't really have a ground to stand on, they are just making up criteria because of their personal bias.

It's why I said bias lowers your intelligence. It doesn't matter what you use to reach a level, as long as you reach that level. A psychedelic is a tool, and humans have used tools for centuries. 

@Razard86 The problem is that they think psychedelics induce hallucinatory logic and sense-making. Sure, you made them understand the state they call soberness is subjective, so what? Now instead of sober being a state, it becomes a spectrum of more sober and less sober. But to them psychedelics take you off the whole spectrum of sober, into the spectrum of hallucinations and illusions. Is this true? No, but that's not how people who argue against psychedelic awakenings think. To them psychedelics means an entire different spectrum that has nothing to do with truth. Do you think convincing them that sober is subjective will convince them? You assume that they think psychedelic states/logic-making exists on the same spectrum as "sober". You argue how we already hold substances in our body altering our 'sober', so how can one argue against psychedelics? But you never proved how psychedelics alter your states to make you bullshit LESS than 'sober'. Look, I agree with what you said, I am just saying what you said is not gonna convince most people who argue against psychedelic awakenings. You have to convince in other ways, like how you just did with "you could argue with the right dosage that psychedelics could IMPROVE functionality.". That's how you start to convince them.