psychedelics decreasing consciousness

[Holymoly]

I’m abit torn on my view of psychedelics, I have been using lsd for the past couple of months and it’s hard to say how I feel about it definitively. 
 

I had my first experience with lsd when I was about 18 at a rave and it was quite horrific, when I was coming up I started to understand things on what seemed like a profound level like never before but I was surrounded by people who were not inclined like I was and who hadn’t done psychedelics so when explaining what was happening to me they couldn’t hold the space and I ended up spiraling off by myself for the rest of the night caught in loops that were insane I’ve never tripped that hard since i don’t think hahah I did quite allot. The next day I felt very refreshed though. I had a sense during this trip that I need to find an elder or go to therapy or something witch I ended up doing a few years later. I told my therapist about this experience and she told me that she thinks it wasn’t very good for me to witch I had a strong emotional reaction in the form of crying. 
I was questioning her about the efficacy of using psychedelics and she said well actually no indigenous or traditional culture used psychedelics meaning hunter gatherers and they can actually make your baggage worse. 

I think the point she was making was that agricultural society’s used them and these society’s lacked the wisdom of the hunter gathers. so if you were to draw upon the wisdom of the hunter gather to improve your life, you wouldn’t go down the psychedelic path, Idk? I felt like it was getting a little argumentative if I’m being honest on her part I was just curious what her thoughts were but it seems she may have a chip on her shoulder about psychedelics. Could be for good reason tbh especially when a 21 year old is asking u about them who doesn’t have his shit together 

She also had me work with a male counsellor she was training who is the same age as me 22 at the time or something. His position I think was that its not the best way especially without a shaman and after doing a trip by myself he said it was a step backwards. As far a I know he had only done lsd once but I still respected him and her because I felt they had the ability to get things done in life that I didn’t, I’m a musician and so was my male counsellor except I struggle from creative blocks and he doesn’t, he also said the best way to clear baggage etc is to move towards what you want and when the blocks come up you work through it ideally with a guide rather then taking a psychedelic and having them come up.

I think that is the wisdom of the hunter gatherer thing like if you take a psychedelic who knows will come up but if you work towards what you want the blocks that come up are going to be the relevant things that you should work on to get what you want. not some random trauma from when you’re a kid witch might be be putting the cart before the horse in a sense, I.e why are you doing healing in the first place? It can get kind of messy 

this was all a few years ago I’m now 26 and have still not had much success with certain blocks. I’m certainly more grounded thoe. But I’m not even sure of that, having them tell me point blank all these negatives about doing psychedelics for healing but also having this extreme curiosity about them and feeling like I want to do them has me thinking quite allot especially during my trips weather what I’m doing is healthy or not it really trips me out. 

recently my trips have had my body in full spasms realising heaps of shit but then also feeling like is that even good and I just avoiding doing the real work. Or am I just at a point where I’m kind of at a dead end and just want to go for it with them because I really feel they have insane potential and I’m not privileged enough to have the most expensive therapy every week and at the end of the day are they really ever going to encourage me to do them since it could potentially harm their reputation if it goes wrong ? 

If I’m being fully honest I really want to do them I love all the stuff Leo talks about and I feel like I’m naturally good with philosophy and stuff and always have been

and I just feel like I can’t fully trust there opinion Because they have a vested interest and it’s my life on the fucking line here so I’m willling to take the risk but they simply cannot because it would be unprofessional. 

Thoughts?

 

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Holymoly

[Hojo]

pretty sure if hunter gatherers knew how to harvest psychs they would and if they found some they would eat them.

and you cant progress without regression a step back is not bad. Anyone who says that has no idea what they are talking about.

I do not know your mental state enough to know if you should take psychs but if you seeing a psychiatrist you must have some mental problems and it might make it worse, but it also might make it better. Do what you want you psychiatrist is an ai. If you somehow improved drastically then regressed your psychiatrist would say good work if you start the race falling on your ass she will say you are not doing well. Who the fuck is she to say when you should regress or progress.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Hojo

[Holymoly]

@Hojo not a psychiatrist a psychotherapist, isn’t it possible to go to a therapist not because you have serious mental problems but because you recognise that some people are a step ahead of you and they can help you on your journey?

[Hojo]

yea man go for it. Heal yourself. In that case I would say dont do them and listen to your therapist or why are you there.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Hojo

[Holymoly]

@Hojo also the idea that hunter gathers didn’t know how to harvest as far as I know isn’t solid I know that aboriginal Australians were both hunter gathers and farmers this is a fact. Their main way of getting to alters states was through art music and dance this is also not certain because they likely kept allot of secrets from the early settlers that was lost when they basically all died and Maybe they were wise enough to see that they don’t need to farm it would be a waste of energy the earth does a much better job then they ever could a providing. That being said they did actually farm so idk haha

[Holymoly]

@Hojo not in therapy this was like 3 years ago 

[Hojo]

So you and your therapist were arguing over whether farmers had wisdom of hunter gatherers but hunter gatherers were farmers.

The native american put a seed in the ground and did nothing but pray to god. They dont water they dont weed they just dance on it and sing about it.thats not farming.

Edited May 17, 2023 by Hojo

[Jowblob]

The fact that you usee lsd on a party says enough.

The fact that you had to go to therapist says enough.

Start with reading books to build some basic grounding in spirituality if you're interested in this path, if not then dont do psychedelics it will ruin you.

[Israfil]

9 hours ago, Holymoly said:

you recognise that some people are a step ahead of you and they can help you on your journey?

You're not on the same path as them. 

[Holymoly]

15 hours ago, Jowblob said:

The fact that you usee lsd on a party says enough.

The fact that you had to go to therapist says enough.

Start with reading books to build some basic grounding in spirituality if you're interested in this path, if not then dont do psychedelics it will ruin you.  
 

Feeling abit of judgment on your part here, this was 8 years ago and I obviously had no idea what I was doing. I’ve read a couple books since then haha. I didn’t have to go to a therapist what I said was I felt like I needed to find an elder and is that really a crazy thing? LSD helped me to realise that I had very few connections to any true elders. Ram dass took lsd and it led him to his teacher/guru how is it different for me? I learnt a fuck load in therapy. 
 

also I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong about using psychedelics for fun at a rave or something but just not for inexperienced people who haven’t done any healing yet

[Holymoly]

@Israfil why do you say that?

[Jodistrict]

There is evidence that hunter gatherers used yopo thousands of years ago.  Yopo is just as strong or a stronger psychedelic than LSD (which i can attest too).

“Archaeological evidence, including the presence of yopo seeds and associated paraphernalia, suggests that yopo has been used by indigenous cultures for thousands of years. In some hunter-gatherer caves and rock shelters, remnants of yopo snuffing rituals have been discovered, providing insights into the ancient cultural practices of the people who inhabited those areas.”
 

[Holymoly]

@Jodistrict Interesting!

[Razard86]

2 hours ago, Holymoly said:

Feeling abit of judgment on your part here, this was 8 years ago and I obviously had no idea what I was doing. I’ve read a couple books since then haha. I didn’t have to go to a therapist what I said was I felt like I needed to find an elder and is that really a crazy thing? LSD helped me to realise that I had very few connections to any true elders. Ram dass took lsd and it led him to his teacher/guru how is it different for me? I learnt a fuck load in therapy. 
 

also I don’t think there is anything inherently wrong about using psychedelics for fun at a rave or something but just not for inexperienced people who haven’t done any healing yet

1. What is wrong with judgment? Without judgment you would be dead. Besides you are judging judgment...so you are doing the same thing.

2. Based on your statement of what is wrong with taking psychedelics for fun shows you lack maturity. Psychedelics are not a game, they are strong neurotransmitters that can fuck up your life. Watch Leo's bad trip video to understand. 

What you don't understand is ONE BAD TRIP COULD FUCK YOU UP FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE! If you don't have a strong mental framework you could fuck yourself up. 

[Holymoly]

@Razard86 I wasnt judging 

 

[Holymoly]

@Razard86 About taking them at a rave let me be a bit more clear. Im quite aware of the danger of doing them at a rave ive been through it myself and know it can mess you up, i'm aware these things are extremely unpredictable and its the most heart breaking thing when you have some thing come up that you REAAALY wish you had taken more care and done it in a better setting, this danger is so much so that i think that for the majority of people this is a bad idea, but i idk i think its possible that some people know themselves and the substance well enough to do this. Perhaps your right they shouldnt ever be taken at a rave i personally at this stage of my life would not do that. Dance therapy is somthing the people do at raves and imagine it could be healing in certain circumstances and i try no to hold such dogma on things i dont know about. some raves have those chill out tents and stuff allot of the time people really want to fucking dance when on these things and im not so sure thats a terrible thing if you have good friends who know you well and you can trust to help you through such things. Again i wouldnt do this myself im just saying i can see it being possible that some people could.

what im saying is that for some people a single dose of lsd isnt really going to effect them much and danger can be minimised especially if its combined with mdma. I think it could be fear mongering though saying they should only ever be done in a therapists office or with a shaman, i think this is for healing and once your done healing you will likely not want to go to some random rave with a bunch of people you dont know and trip it just wouldnt be right. im just trying to see both sides of the coin here some people i respect greatly are very firm on the idea that they should never be used recreationally gabor mate being one of them Im certain jordan peterson would think its totally ludicrous haha, both very mature people who i would LOVE to do psychedelics with them as my sitter, but these people arent perfect and according to terrence mckenna this is what people did in a way when first encountering psychedlics if we see the psychedelic as the thing doing the healing we run the risk of losing what healing is witch is very possible for example gabor mate though he was a healer but when going to the amazon the shaman there saw that he was carrying a shit tone of of baggage he absorbed from people he was 'healing'. 

im at a point where i just want to heal and learn ways of getting my needs met and understanding myself better, but if im so immature why have they been helping me? my recent trips have been very healing and eye opening, but i know this stuff is very tricky and i could be deluding myself about that 

imagine wanting to jump and dance and celibrate life but then being in a therapist office and being like oh yeah thats right i need to HEAL because im SICK idk you would really want a very very good therapist but i also think ultimately people know how to heal themselves best not therapist. and if people have a  strong natural desire to dance isnt that kind of the point of life?

Again im not an expert and perhaps im too optimistic and humanity isnt ready and we all need to do it with therapist for a few hundred years before some thing like a rave is a safe space for this experience. idk i dont go to raves since that experience but i know people there were doing it and who am i ultimately to decide what they should do 

[Razard86]

6 hours ago, Holymoly said:

@Razard86 I wasnt judging 

 

You were. The moment you complain about anything you are judging. Discernment is judgment, it is a mild form of judging but it is still judging. To judge is to call something bad, when you have a preference you create value. A this is better for me than this. I prefer this over this. It is still a judgment, it is just a mild form. So yes you were judging. No wiggling out of this one. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judgment

[Razard86]

5 hours ago, Holymoly said:

@Razard86 About taking them at a rave let me be a bit more clear. Im quite aware of the danger of doing them at a rave ive been through it myself and know it can mess you up, i'm aware these things are extremely unpredictable and its the most heart breaking thing when you have some thing come up that you REAAALY wish you had taken more care and done it in a better setting, this danger is so much so that i think that for the majority of people this is a bad idea, but i idk i think its possible that some people know themselves and the substance well enough to do this. Perhaps your right they shouldnt ever be taken at a rave i personally at this stage of my life would not do that. Dance therapy is somthing the people do at raves and imagine it could be healing in certain circumstances and i try no to hold such dogma on things i dont know about. some raves have those chill out tents and stuff allot of the time people really want to fucking dance when on these things and im not so sure thats a terrible thing if you have good friends who know you well and you can trust to help you through such things. Again i wouldnt do this myself im just saying i can see it being possible that some people could.

what im saying is that for some people a single dose of lsd isnt really going to effect them much and danger can be minimised especially if its combined with mdma. I think it could be fear mongering though saying they should only ever be done in a therapists office or with a shaman, i think this is for healing and once your done healing you will likely not want to go to some random rave with a bunch of people you dont know and trip it just wouldnt be right. im just trying to see both sides of the coin here some people i respect greatly are very firm on the idea that they should never be used recreationally gabor mate being one of them Im certain jordan peterson would think its totally ludicrous haha, both very mature people who i would LOVE to do psychedelics with them as my sitter, but these people arent perfect and according to terrence mckenna this is what people did in a way when first encountering psychedlics if we see the psychedelic as the thing doing the healing we run the risk of losing what healing is witch is very possible for example gabor mate though he was a healer but when going to the amazon the shaman there saw that he was carrying a shit tone of of baggage he absorbed from people he was 'healing'. 

im at a point where i just want to heal and learn ways of getting my needs met and understanding myself better, but if im so immature why have they been helping me? my recent trips have been very healing and eye opening, but i know this stuff is very tricky and i could be deluding myself about that 

imagine wanting to jump and dance and celibrate life but then being in a therapist office and being like oh yeah thats right i need to HEAL because im SICK idk you would really want a very very good therapist but i also think ultimately people know how to heal themselves best not therapist. and if people have a  strong natural desire to dance isnt that kind of the point of life?

Again im not an expert and perhaps im too optimistic and humanity isnt ready and we all need to do it with therapist for a few hundred years before some thing like a rave is a safe space for this experience. idk i dont go to raves since that experience but i know people there were doing it and who am i ultimately to decide what they should do 

1. Nobody could. What you don't understand is psychedelics unlock the POWER of GOD. The Power of God is unlimited! You have no clue how bad, bad trips can become. How about you become a MELTING HOUSE that melts and becomes liquid and then repairs itself only to melt again for a thousand years? How about you become an exploding star that bursts into cosmic dust and float around as cosmic dust for a thousand years?

How about you enter Hell and get tied to a table and have a Devil torture you for fun for a thousand years? I could go on and on! What you don't understand is YOUR MIND is the POWER OF GOD and it can imagine ANYTHING!! If you take a psychedelic and you are in a bad place....you can imagine the worst scenario for your ego EVER. There is absolute nothing you can say that can offset this. Instead of defending yourself go actually do research on Bad Trips. THEN you will see that it is NOT A GAME. 

Many a psychonaut has learned the HARD WAY you WILL GET HUMBLED. But....you may never recover. 

2. On one of my trips....I was raped...for several hours. So I got to experience rape.... and it was just as real as real life. Luckily my mind is very strong I got over it easily because I knew it was imaginary. But I know for a fact most humans would be traumatized because they don't know it is imaginary. 

[Jowblob]

6 hours ago, Razard86 said:

1. What is wrong with judgment? Without judgment you would be dead. Besides you are judging judgment...so you are doing the same thing.

2. Based on your statement of what is wrong with taking psychedelics for fun shows you lack maturity. Psychedelics are not a game, they are strong neurotransmitters that can fuck up your life. Watch Leo's bad trip video to understand. 

What you don't understand is ONE BAD TRIP COULD FUCK YOU UP FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE! If you don't have a strong mental framework you could fuck yourself up. 

Psychedelic like lsd is not just a psychedelic and is not just a pill, if you surrender or go deeply  you're literally becoming god based. It can literally change your waking dream including all the people in it, and things can happen on behalf of god you can't imagine. The reason for that is because you don't operate at the same frequency anymore.

[Jodistrict]

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

You were. The moment you complain about anything you are judging. Discernment is judgment, it is a mild form of judging but it is still judging. To judge is to call something bad, when you have a preference you create value. A this is better for me than this. I prefer this over this. It is still a judgment, it is just a mild form. So yes you were judging. No wiggling out of this one. 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/judgment

There is a spiritual interpretation of the differences which expands on the dictionary definitions.

Judgment is a negative process that involves personal bias, emotional reactions, and imposing one’s own beliefs or values onto others.

Discernment is a positive and conscious process that involves objective observation and clarity of thought.

Discernment is objective, without the emotional component of judgment.

Discernment allows for a deeper understanding of oneself and others and cultivates compassion.  It avoids the destructive patterns associated with Judgment.
 

https://www.awakeningself.com/writing/judgement-vs-discernment/

Edited May 18, 2023 by Jodistrict