God Fucking Damn it, Another Meditation Rant Thread

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, josemar said:

since 5 MeO will show the Truth (and this is not a precise description, better [but still imperfect] would be that there is only Truth, without it being 'shown' to anyone), but then this will be "understood" or "integrated" on the comedown and in coming days by whatever concepts the separate self maintains at the time. If it deems it still needs "others", then 5 MeO will have showed that the One Consciousness is in others as well. If it deems "I'm not worthy" for whatever reason, then 5 MeO will have showed more trips needed to purify myself. B

5 meo only shows the absolute infinity to me. It's something quite simple, it's as if there was a limiter in your brain that limits infinity and makes it seem finite. like blinders on a donkey. You only see what you have to see, this does not mean that there is only that, but if you want to perceive something concrete, you must be blind to everything except that. For example, the limitless void is imaginary, and it's not limitless, it's limited. Why? because there is not a single elephant there. where are the elephants? hidden. if you remove the limiter, everything, absolutely, manifests. man....is a wild cry, is the absolute total infinity, the source of total existence. and it's completely obvious. if there are no limits, there is everything. you cannot imagine it because to imagine is to select some things over others. you can only be. will fill your being with joy.

[gettoefl]

stage 4 i is zero, stage 5 infinity is i

[Water by the River]

14 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

stage 4 i is zero, stage 5 infinity is i

[gettoefl]

23 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

have to love a bit of brevity around here hah ... want to express my thanks all your epic sharing even though it gives my brain a major melt-down, will read until it sinks in ... i bless you ?

[BipolarGrowth]

1.5 years is not enough time to expect the big results. Keep going. Focus on techniques that feel most effective and search for more techniques if you’re not absolutely satisfied with your current ones. 

Learning theoretical frameworks can be just as big of a piece of your development as meditation. So make sure that you at least intellectually understand or are aware of the majority of Leo’s teachings and ideally dozens of other teachers/spiritual systems. 

If you’re feeling impatient, you could probably benefit from more psychedelic trips. Once you see some profound insights deeply enough and enough times, this will transfer to your meditation to a degree. 
 

It sounds like most of the types of meditation you’ve been doing are pretty basic, so it’s probably time to upgrade to different methods. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by BipolarGrowth

[Inliytened1]

18 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

 

It sounds like most of the types of meditation you’ve been doing are pretty basic, so it’s probably time to upgrade to different methods. 

Meditation is the most simplified thing you could do.  If you begin to make methods out of it - then you have already gone off course.  

[Flowerfaeiry]

What were you hoping to experience? I used to be a big proponent for meditation because I thought it was THE way to live a good life. I have done 2.5 10-day vipassana retreats and kept a meditation practice for months at a time sporadically. But since diving into Somatics a couple years ago I see there are other ways to heal, grow and gain self-awareness. Meditation is just one tool. 

[BipolarGrowth]

4 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Meditation is the most simplified thing you could do.  If you begin to make methods out of it - then you have already gone off course.  

I’ve experienced exponential results upon taking up new methods which is why I suggest this. 

[Ayham]

@BipolarGrowth can you recommend some resources? techniques?

I think you have the real deal lol

 

@Flowerfaeiry I was expecting some sort of awakening, at least a glimpse, also extreme tranquility, focus, and having a lot of insights.

you seem experienced with meditation and other things, what have you tried? 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Ayham

[UnbornTao]

It's useful for us to get clear on what goals any given practice has.

A couple of useful distinctions to make: Meditation is setting out to manipulate your state in order to heal or control the mind. Contemplation, on the other hand, is going after insight and real experiential understanding of the subject being contemplated. It is questioning with the intent to discover what's true about its nature and workings. It's not limited to a technique or posture. The difficulty of this practice lies in its simplicity.

Edited April 23 by UnbornTao

[ValiantSalvatore]

You 100% need breakthrough experiences more, and the best you can do is go to a retreat center for a couple of weeks & months as well as combine it with psychdelics. Check out transcendene asn an audiobook.

See, Hear, Feel is also there to prepare you for all possible meditation techniques and retreats out there. 

See what resonates for me top results I got is with just with peak experiences:

• Psychdelics + Self-Inquiry & Do-Nothing(Do-Nothing no technique possible as consciouness state is to high)
• Retreats Zen
• See, Hear, Feel with expansion & contraction paradigm -> best practical life changes & karma digestiong imo
• Self-inquiry (interchangeable with see,hear,feel & zen retreats) / Visualization
• Kriya-Yoga (very difficult to practice)
• Breath counting

Overall, there will be not breakthrough without doing retreats. It's not about meditation sessions it's about depth of experience and that is mostly possible with 3-10 day retreats. A 3 month retreat can save 10 years of practice if you do the retreat for 3 months for stream entry. Just doing things strategically is exhausting as hell. Get a minimum of 14 days of retreats in focus also a bit more on the concentration side of things and what resonates generally. 

I daily get different tastes at least of states and higher emotions, my emotional mastery definitely increased I was even more out of whack 8 years ago, and a lot of trauma got released thanks, also to shadow work type practices. I wish I could have gone a bit slower. 

I am meditating now close to 8 years with 1h - 45 min practice and numerous 2 days (20-30) weekend retreats from Shinzen etc. It's not worth it if you can't sustain the following imo. (As well as 1 zen retreat)

• Daily practice 1h minimun to be more "hardcore" 
• 14 days retreats per year at best one stretch (minimum)
• Psychdelics if you can handle them speeds things up tremendously
• Be stable in life
• Have a shadow work & trauma type practice
• Read scriptures about the path and inspire yourself.
• Weight lifting man!

It stacks up tremendously, yet you have to take retreats my man! Otherwise shit will not change fundamentally, 1h practice accumulates a lot also, I change everyday bit by bit even in the worst of times. 

Definitely do retreats, and be financially save to do them, so you don't become a broke corrupted spiritual servitor, if you are confident in your abillity apply for voluntariy at retreat centers, if you want to save money for bigger things and also exhaust karma man. Go out and fuck girls, trust nobody and give away your authority no matter how painful it is if you don't feel an intutive pull and even then you'll get emotionally damaged. 

Don't trust every cannabis users reports, people who are unstable in life and never interconnected scriptures. Be friend and see what resonates, as well as build a life that can accomdate spiritual practice and retreats and people who resonate with that. 

The point is it has become such a marketing fad, to make it non religious and secular based on science, that most forget what it's truely about. 1h meditation session does nothing, if you attend a retreat and you comeback and you do a 1h sit you notice wow, I never meditated before properly. There are many other things. Yet this is a raw structure, of what would give more peak experiences. Especially how hectic these days are and the new research on psychdelics I can only recommend that if you are stable and 21 y.o and have managed finances etc. are setup in life. 

I am not the best example, yet this is what it looks like, also if you are healthy weight lifting and yes... this is the best case scenario imo, besides doing visualization practices. Also learn from all teachers, it takes longer yet it's worth it that was the advice I was given, if I could I would concentrate more, yet I do better digesting sensory experiences. 

Check also in with experienced teachers and coaches once per year, hire a coach if you're serious and need a little structure & help as well as someone to talk to. You could find someone here also, yet I mostly don't have the best of experiences here. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[Ayham]

@ValiantSalvatore
My life situation does not really allow for retreats, I am 16, broke, and in Iraq, but I will definitely do it at some point, that's a vow

 

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I am meditating now close to 8 years with 1h - 45 min practice and numerous 2 days (20-30) weekend retreats from Shinzen etc. It's not worth it if you can't sustain the following imo. (As well as 1 zen retreat)

Daily practice 1h minimun to be more "hardcore" 

14 days retreats per year at best one stretch (minimum)

Psychdelics if you can handle them speeds things up tremendously

Be stable in life

Have a shadow work & trauma type practice

Read scriptures about the path and inspire yourself.

Weight lifting man!

I already do the last 4, the psychedelics and retreats are not available for me at this point, and I am struggling to reach an hour in one go, I am trying to reach one hour as a strong determination sitting, but I keep failing. at around 45 minutes, the feeling I get is unbelievable, I start shaking and feeling like dying lol.

Also can you give me some clear instructions on see hear feel technique? I just note and then try to focus on the sensation? but how do i focus exactly, do i have to take it in? do i just focus hardly on it? for how long do i focus on one sensation?

and what do you think of the mind illuminated?

[ValiantSalvatore]

1 hour ago, Ayham said:

I already do the last 4, the psychedelics and retreats are not available for me at this point, and I am struggling to reach an hour in one go, I am trying to reach one hour as a strong determination sitting, but I keep failing. at around 45 minutes, the feeling I get is unbelievable, I start shaking and feeling like dying lol.

Also can you give me some clear instructions on see hear feel technique? I just note and then try to focus on the sensation? but how do i focus exactly, do i have to take it in? do i just focus hardly on it? for how long do i focus on one sensation?

and what do you think of the mind illuminated?

Focus on getting some career started otherwise the path is not sustainable where you're able to do some retreats as well as move out of the country that would be better, as a primary goal otherwise stuff is not as sustainable!

For clear instructions See,Hear,Feel technique read the PDF from Shinzen:
https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/FiveWaystoKnowYourself_ver1.6.pdf

• Take notes and see what works for you what doesn't
• Especially be open to other paths and retreats just follow the instructions and don't make a fuss about stuff etc.
• I never did the mind illuminated as I did not find anyone else and I definitely need some level of connection with others, as Shinzen has stuff online available. I did listen to it in an Audiobook format, yet I did not resonate to much with it, as it fosued so much on concentration 
• You can do online retreats and solo retreats, I bet still in Iraq you can rent some place and do a solo-meditation if you can't leave the country

If you start shaking you certainly are evoking some kriya type experiences and imprints from the past that are swelling up within the present. Just take it slow and nudge yourself up slowly there is no need to rush the process, I also don't do strong-determination sittings, I get also a lot of kriyas and I had a full-blown one twice, it's not as fun and you certainly don't want that, to be a hallmark for growth more the depth of the positive, it's more of a side-effect of the path.

For more clear instructions also:

• Yes, note and focus on the objective of meditation you can do it algorithmically, focus only on one sensation at a time and restrict it to let's say only internal talk and internal feeling for this session -> build more concentration.
• You can focus on the expansive quality of the sensation -> Ex: feeling becoming very warm and full inside, you notice the spread of sensation X, also sound etc. 
• You can focus on the contraction quality of the sensation -> Ex: noticing fear when a certain thought evokes inside
• You can focus for 10 minutes on one sensation (only feeling in, only feeling out etc.) -> concentration build
• They all reinforce each other concentration builds clarity & equanimty etc. and all vice-versa. There is no real way, yet you can define goals, the outline I gave above is stream-entry favourable. You can super-charge... this by doing a 3 months retreat in Thailand etc. 
• Read the masterings of the core teachings of the buddah if you can (I did not fully read it) 
• You can also do-nothing and just let each sensation arise&pass
  • Don't focus only on buddhism check what Leo does also 
  • 100% career and education has prio otherwise spirituality will not workout
• You can structure your practice yourself. For example 10 min concentration, 20 min open-awarness, 20 min concentration on sensation X instead Y. Check-out https://insighttimer.com/ as an app on the appstore, you find guided meditations from Shinzen there (not the best ones, live is better).

You can decide yourself, you are also for more realistic expectations a beginner for the first 10 years or so, you can 100% speed up the process, especially (I am no doctor!!) as you're growing and very very young man. Let meditation be a side thing and focus your lifestyle&structure to be able to do retreats & afford them etc. You design your life! (Also check out Peter Ralston, you'll find more connection here with this)

You can take online retreats from Shinzen here and eventually apply for a scholorship:
https://homepracticeprogram.com/

To give an example I do open-awareness meditation & see hear feel with mostly a restriction on:

Feel in, Feel flow, expansion&contracion flow & hear in. I don't get to much visual material. If you really want to go crazy, you can include space as an object in meditation and focus on the expansiveness&contractivness of space, yet building up concentration is important. I am certainly biased by the forum to an extend. I also can't sit crossed-legged etc. If you're young definitely prepare for this I had to abolish the idea a couple of times due to injury and mental health struggles. 

Also keep up the good work! 45min to 1h a lot of younger teens I bet can't uphold that level of concentration. Apply this to stuff in your life and focus on building a life that allows you to practice spirituality, that is more important than 45-1h sit, just sit 30 minutes and build on your life rather. If there is no other option even just 10 at times, if stuff get's hectic for whatever reason. Yet stay with the 1h! Take stuff slow, don't rush the process.

The feeling like dying is 100% contractive energy and could be upheld anger and emotions if you focus on the sensation of dying... and yes that is a real emotion to an extend imo, it's painful bitterness etc, pain itself etc. Unconscious material, the evaporate yourself from this pain also frees you from unconscious habits. 

This is my take on all of this, there is also no real technique if you take a psychdelic this will unravel, these states of consciouness are very different and I also had retreats (formal ones without psychdelics online) where I had similar states, and the better my life circumstances the more it feels like a mild psychdelic. Do it with 21 build on your life trust me you don't want this and you are building a lot of stability also mental health. Slow down if things go to fast, and seek and give support 100%.

Especially as I am also anger prone bro, exercise! Do shadow work and continue it's normal you 100% want a breakthrough experience, stuff happens at the most random and predictable times. When I had the kriya experience where I felt a knot near my heart space everything lifted I cried endlessly and I could not control movement of breath everything was cleansed like a warm softly wet steam would clean my nervous system and vagus nerve. It was liberating, and it showed me how much karma I've built in that sense. 

Also thanks for sharing the sturggle in a sense it's very inspirational! 

Edited May 15, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[Ayham]

@ValiantSalvatore
 

Quote

Focus on getting some career started otherwise the path is not sustainable where you're able to do some retreats as well as move out of the country that would be better, as a primary goal otherwise stuff is not as sustainable!

i agree with this, getting a career and moving out is a must.
 

Quote

For clear instructions See,Hear,Feel technique read the PDF from Shinzen:
https://www.shinzen.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/FiveWaystoKnowYourself_ver1.6.pdf
 

Take notes and see what works for you what doesn't

Especially be open to other paths and retreats just follow the instructions and don't make a fuss about stuff etc.

I never did the mind illuminated as I did not find anyone else and I definitely need some level of connection with others, as Shinzen has stuff online available. I did listen to it in an Audiobook format, yet I did not resonate to much with it, as it fosued so much on concentration 

You can do online retreats and solo retreats, I bet still in Iraq you can rent some place and do a solo-meditation if you can't leave the country

oh nice!

Quote

You can decide yourself, you are also for more realistic expectations a beginner for the first 10 years or so, you can 100% speed up the process, especially (I am no doctor!!) as you're growing and very very young man. Let meditation be a side thing and focus your lifestyle&structure to be able to do retreats & afford them etc. You design your life! (Also check out Peter Ralston, you'll find more connection here with this)

yeah balancing spirituality with normal life stuff is important to be able to build a life where I have the freedom to do all of this, and I know peter, he is truly amazing, i have contacted him too in his newsletter.

Quote

You can take online retreats from Shinzen here and eventually apply for a scholorship:
https://homepracticeprogram.com/

To give an example I do open-awareness meditation & see hear feel with mostly a restriction on:

Feel in, Feel flow, expansion&contracion flow & hear in. I don't get to much visual material. If you really want to go crazy, you can include space as an object in meditation and focus on the expansiveness&contractivness of space, yet building up concentration is important. I am certainly biased by the forum to an extend. I also can't sit crossed-legged etc. If you're young definitely prepare for this I had to abolish the idea a couple of times due to injury and mental health struggles. 

the link does not work for me for some reason, and also there seems to be much more options within the technique, so far I have been just noticing sensations and noting either see or hear or feel then focusing, I will look more into this, the pdf seems juicy.

 

Quote

Also keep up the good work! 45min to 1h a lot of younger teens I bet can't uphold that level of concentration. Apply this to stuff in your life and focus on building a life that allows you to practice spirituality, that is more important than 45-1h sit, just sit 30 minutes and build on your life rather. If there is no other option even just 10 at times, if stuff get's hectic for whatever reason. Yet stay with the 1h! Take stuff slow, don't rush the process.

thank you! yes I plan on maintaining a practice even if things get "hectic", I remember Shinzen Young being one of the few teachers who promises stream entry with short practice times:
1. at least 10 minutes practice in stillness
2. at least 10 minutes formal practice in motion
3. 6- 10 micro hits a day
4. trying to maintain a technique ongoing all the time (no labeling, just noticing and focusing)
 
of course I will still continue with the 1 hour, but having this outline as something to fall back on when things get "hectic" always helps

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The feeling like dying is 100% contractive energy and could be upheld anger and emotions if you focus on the sensation of dying... and yes that is a real emotion to an extend imo, it's painful bitterness etc, pain itself etc. Unconscious material, the evaporate yourself from this pain also frees you from unconscious habits

aha, purification! but damn it is hard 

 

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Especially as I am also anger prone bro, exercise! Do shadow work and continue it's normal you 100% want a breakthrough experience, stuff happens at the most random and predictable times. When I had the kriya experience where I felt a knot near my heart space everything lifted I cried endlessly and I could not control movement of breath everything was cleansed like a warm softly wet steam would clean my nervous system and vagus nerve. It was liberating, and it showed me how much karma I've built in that sense. 

wait, I heard in kriya yoga there are like 3 knots, one in the heart, one somewhere in the perineum, and one in the throat or third eye, can't quite remember, is it the same thing?
it sounds like an exciting experience for sure.

 

Quote

Also thanks for sharing the sturggle in a sense it's very inspirational! 

you are welcome! and thank you for the effort you put into the reply, I was trying to put the same effort back in this response but I couldn't match you 

[ValiantSalvatore]

3 hours ago, Ayham said:

the link does not work for me for some reason, and also there seems to be much more options within the technique, so far I have been just noticing sensations and noting either see or hear or feel then focusing, I will look more into this, the pdf seems juicy.

There are many options to pull from, especially as you're young and seem eager to explore, if you can hold a 45min-1h practice there are many adult meditators IIRC who need a coach as well as just do 30 minutes, the 1h pays off, especially with psychdelic stability if you're interested in that, yet I would recommend doing that when you're 21 y.o and stable financially not in any student situation where you can't afford a life changing/altering trip, if you can for whatever reason go ahead! Also...

If the link does not work google: "home practice programm Shinzen Young" see what you can find this is where he holds online retreats for 90$ each month, you may apply for scholorship, so definitely reach out.

https://www.shinzen.org/resources/articles/
Fundamentally there is:

• See in
• Feel In
• Hear In
• See Out
• Feel Out
• Hear Out
• See Out (closed & open eyes & half-open eyes...)
• See flow
• Feel Flow
• Hear flow Out & In (I do this, yet barely any home practice programm included this)
• Expansion&Contraction Flow
• Hear good (positive mantra could be "ohm" as well as "I am confident and healthy")
• See good (visualzation practice)
• Feel good (evoking positive emotions)
• Be good (use all of the good stuff & contemplate archetypal beigns & qualities for example compassionate leader you'd enjoy beign some hero & god type figure who's quality you'd enjoy)
• Do Nothing, Open Awareness, Constrictive focus
• See Space... -> you intuit the space in & around an experience behind your back, infront of your eyes etc.
• Feel Space -> you move into this space 
• Hear Space (no idea anymore if this existed..., yet Shinzen is open to anything new, you can intuit hear space around the ears & eyes which activates his wisdom function)
• Just Space
• Just Hear (in&out/or one of both)
• Just Flow
• Just Feel (in&out/or one of both)
• Just See ((in&out/or one of both) 
• Hear Space between the head&eyes ->
• Auto Talk
• Auto Walk
• Feel Bounce IIRC -> I don't know anymore what this does
• He also has some sort of self-inquiry at times
• Obviously All
• Chanting also with numbers for concentration that is & was also fun (1,2,3,4842,23,23,23,2,12945234,234 all said out loud for example)

https://www.shinzen.org/auto-think-a-strategy-for-fostering-the-wisdom-function/

This is fundamentally it of what I can actively recall.

3 hours ago, Ayham said:

wait, I heard in kriya yoga there are like 3 knots, one in the heart, one somewhere in the perineum, and one in the throat or third eye, can't quite remember, is it the same thing?
it sounds like an exciting experience for sure.

It's more personal, I never heard the info above, yet I certainly unknotted the knot to a great deal at the heart center/solar plexus. It's a lot of stress and old imprints from sensations etc. Samskharas is also a term used, in Pali or Sanskirt. It most likely is the same thing, yet there are 100% technical difference, I am just going of my own experience here. 

3 hours ago, Ayham said:

thank you! yes I plan on maintaining a practice even if things get "hectic", I remember Shinzen Young being one of the few teachers who promises stream entry with short practice times:
1. at least 10 minutes practice in stillness
2. at least 10 minutes formal practice in motion
3. 6- 10 micro hits a day
4. trying to maintain a technique ongoing all the time (no labeling, just noticing and focusing)

IMO this will not give your stream entry, when I talked to Shinzen he gave me the outline above approx. with an emphasis on retreats, for a no bullshit approach his teacher Janusz Welin, gave me the info with 3 months as I asked him what it takes to reach Stream Entry. Can't share more infos currently. Hopefully you can benefit from all of this. 

3 hours ago, Ayham said:

aha, purification! but damn it is hard 

100% yes, it's not easy. You're doing well I bet you definitely should apply to this if possible & talk with Shinzen about your practice as you're extremely young. https://www.lifepracticeprogram.com/

Edited May 15, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[Ayham]

@ValiantSalvatore another high quality answer, I really benefited from all of it, thank you so much

 

[ValiantSalvatore]

47 minutes ago, Ayham said:

another high quality answer, I really benefited from all of it, thank you so much

You're welcome! Shinzen is confusing at the beginning you're not alone! It took me a while and I was also very eager to figure out the best possible way to practice after 8 years of testing. (2-3 years even approx no meditation at all, because of life circumstanes testing stopping from practice etc.)

Check out Audible if you have a subscription. https://www.audible.de/pd/The-Science-of-Enlightenment-Hoerbuch/B004UZHDYW?qid=1684182735&sr=1-1&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1&pf_rd_p=e54013e2-074a-460e-861f-7feac676b789&pf_rd_r=B2K44BQ1GAW94P3X8NF2&pageLoadId=1smtWZpCwtE6KYno&creativeId=41e85e98-10b8-40e2-907d-6b663f04a42d

This will fundamentally explain some stuff about meditation, history. I can also recommend to not get to hung-up on any opinion and see for yourself what works & what doesn't. Also Ken Wilber books so you see what b.s replies you get, and can see where there is the silver-lining is within all the comments posted. 

Check out Leo's videos on God-Realization also, this could give you also more of a glimps what to look forward to what is not apparently within all these paradigms. That I posted and are talked about in this thread. 

Take your time & stick with smth. while exploring options. You can get help here with stuff. Also at best don't get into the relativity about things some stuff works better than other stuff. The is the whole point about relativity some things are better in accordance than others, stay consistent! Get a career going and get a degree etc. if possible and move to a country etc. I bet in Turkey you can also find more options for meditation/girls/girlfriend/studying abroad etc. Where there is more open-mindedness. I am not from Iraq, I don't know much about the country, yet I have a friend from there. 

Hope this helps!

Edited May 15, 2023 by ValiantSalvatore

[Ayham]

I have been wanting to read wilber, I will also listen to the audio book, I like to listen to these when in the gym.

also I really want to study college in some first world country, but it is hard, my family is not that well financially, and scholarships are not easy, and my parents refuse this idea totally and aren't accepting of it, the safe option would be studying here then going to another country, and I will do that, but I would prefer studying college in a first world country, but that is not really realistic.

[Flowerfaeiry]

On 5/15/2023 at 1:49 AM, Ayham said:

@BipolarGrowth can you recommend some resources? techniques?

I think you have the real deal lol

 

@Flowerfaeiry I was expecting some sort of awakening, at least a glimpse, also extreme tranquility, focus, and having a lot of insights.

you seem experienced with meditation and other things, what have you tried? 

Somatic Experiencing man. Look into it it's a deep study of our Being. Peter Levine is the founder of it but it's based on indigenous wisdom. By far the most awakening I've had. Meditation is a somatic practice. But it's just one. And it's an advanced practice. You may benefit from other body-mind-soul practices. 

[Javfly33]

@Ayham closing your eyes doesn´t mean you are meditating.