God Fucking Damn it, Another Meditation Rant Thread

[Water by the River]

1 minute ago, Ayham said:

@Water by the River
I actually thought about that, it is always motivating

but my life purpose is less about the process of meditation, and more about delivering understanding and answers that makes people wise and grow, and those will be answers I get from contemplation, the books i am reading, and maybe meditation. 
The sort of understanding and answers will be on philosophy, practical and existential philosophy

I am not sure of the medium in which I want to do it, but probably books, maybe courses, maybe seminars, maybe videos.

 

That is also great, starting on the practical side.

How did you learn such good english?

[Ayham]

@Water by the River oh thanks, well, when I was 12, I used to watch YouTube a lot, somehow I got lucky, and accidentally got into English YouTube videos, some on gaming, some on random stuff, some on new age spiritual stuff,  i was into it back then, the new agey woo woo spiritual stuff, but i was scared to go deeply into it, because I was brainwashed by Islam, I wasn't certain of it, but I was scared to question it, so I thought I was doing something wrong with consuming spiritual content, so I left them, then after another year, I got deeper with reading Eckhart Tolle's books, I got a glimpse, then got scared and left, then after another year I got deeper again then left, until the year after it, I stumbled upon Leo's old series on enlightenment, which caused me an existential crisis (maybe dark night of the soul?), for 3 months I felt like I did not exist and was scared 24/7 and wanting to cry, which also caused me to stop believing in Islam, and ever since then I have been meditating, reading philosophy and psychology books, eating healthy, keeping commonplace book, sometimes contemplation, etc.

but that's another topic, concerning English, I just got used to consuming English media 24/7 since I was 12, and also I made lots of online friends on discord who I speak English with.

[Water by the River]

7 minutes ago, Ayham said:

@Water by the River oh thanks, well, when I was 12, I used to watch YouTube a lot, somehow I got lucky, and accidentally got into English YouTube videos, some on gaming, some on random stuff, some on new age spiritual stuff,  i was into it back then, the new agey woo woo spiritual stuff, but i was scared to go deeply into it, because I was brainwashed by Islam, I wasn't certain of it, but I was scared to question it, so I thought I was doing something wrong with consuming spiritual content, so I left them, then after another year, I got deeper with reading Eckhart Tolle's books, I got a glimpse, then got scared and left, then after another year I got deeper again then left, until the year after it, I stumbled upon Leo's old series on enlightenment, which caused me an existential crisis (maybe dark night of the soul?), for 3 months I felt like I did not exist and was scared 24/7 and wanting to cry, which also caused me to stop believing in Islam, and ever since then I have been meditating, reading philosophy and psychology books, eating healthy, keeping commonplace book, sometimes contemplation, etc.

but that's another topic, concerning English, I just got used to consuming English media 24/7 since I was 12, and also I made lots of online friends on discord who I speak English with.

very cool! 

I am not a native English Speaker, but reading many books in english (and watching movies generally in english) opened up a whole world for me.

Working in a global business environment, where many international colleagues have a challenging time communicating in english, your english is really excellent. That is an awesome base to start from!

Concerning Islam: Maybe you would find "Coming Home, Hixon", the chapter about Enlightenment in Islam/Sufi interesting.

Water by the River

[Ayham]

@Water by the River your English seems native level for me, and I agree English does open up a whole new world.

I am not sure about Islam, i don't like it much, even the Sufis.

I have personal questions but lets just do it in the messenger thing lol

[OldManCorcoran]

It's useless.

We can glimpse something ineffable during a peak experience. But largely we are just going to have to wait until we die... Enough "chasing the dragon" trying to "understand" it again. When actually it seems those confrontations are entirely ineffable and thus can't be rationalized or intellectually considered.

I voice recorded a regular DMT trip and was absolutely unable to describe the sensation or what was happening. I was barely even tripping hard compared to a breakthrough and couldn't verbalize what was happening except to say it was "very serious".

[Breakingthewall]

32 minutes ago, OldManCorcoran said:

It's useless.

We can glimpse something ineffable during a peak experience. But largely we are just going to have to wait until we die... Enough "chasing the dragon" trying to "understand" it again. When actually it seems those confrontations are entirely ineffable and thus can't be rationalized or intellectually considered.

I voice recorded a regular DMT trip and was absolutely unable to describe the sensation or what was happening. I was barely even tripping hard compared to a breakthrough and couldn't verbalize what was happening except to say it was "very serious".

1 hour ago, Ayham said:

 

1 hour ago, Ayham said:

@Water by the River
I 

I don't think it's useless. Every time a liberation occurs and you open yourself completely to infinity, you are a little freer, your body loses tension, your experience becomes more fluid, distortions manifest. It's a gradual process, little by little. 

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, Moksha said:

@Ayham Funny how realizing the unconditional happens when you stop placing conditions on it 

@Razard86 As you pointed out in another thread, the ego cracks itself up. It reaches the point where it appears to self-implode. Especially when it sees itself, not in others, but in itself.

Something like this:

• I am a spiritual being, therefore I say spiritual things
• Others recognize the wisdom of what I say, therefore I am not only spiritual, but SPIRITUAL
• Wait, that sounds egoic, but is it still egoic if it's true?
• Who the hell is this voice in my head, and will it please stop?
• OMG, the ego is literally EVERY THOUGHT
• Ohm...

Back when I first joined the forum, I had the privilege of talking with one of the people who I consider to be awake. No joke, the conversation went for hours and the majority of it was straight out laughter.

Yes, I have a friend who is enlightened as well....we can literally finish each other's sentences. It literally starts feeling like you are in a bathroom looking in a mirror and talking to yourself. At a certain point it's like they break the flow on purpose just to keep the self-deception that they are a separate individual on purpose. Makes me laugh when it happens!!!

So I get it why things need to be this way. 

[Oppositionless]

no shame in using guided meditations for awile friend. I reccomend the gateway experience. you’ll learn a bunch of hypnotic suggestions for instantly going into a deep meditative state.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Oppositionless

[gettoefl]

i trained myself to integrate morning meditation so i no longer think about it, this is my third year of meditating

i get up in a daze, do a little yoga, then plop down on the mat

i do nothing and i have no idea about meditation, lately i have been counting breaths, 600 breaths=2.5hours flex muscles then 400breaths=1.5hours

every day is completely different in what happens, most days feel shit some days feel cool, but i don't care it is not something to mull over

i am reading pointing out the great way that @Water by the River mentioned, nearly finished and hardly understand a thing but i will read again

i am not attached to meditation, if from tomorrow i never meditate again that's fine or if i take couple months off cool too

meditation hasn't changed my life at all except i know my true nature and try to be that conduit of the absolute as best it allows

[Salvijus]

I think you could do it way more effectively. I could show you how myself if i had proper space and opportunity for it. Otherwise look for a better teacher or something. There are ways to meditate much more effectively is what im trying to say.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Salvijus

[Water by the River]

10 hours ago, OldManCorcoran said:

It's useless.

We can glimpse something ineffable during a peak experience. But largely we are just going to have to wait until we die... Enough "chasing the dragon" trying to "understand" it again. When actually it seems those confrontations are entirely ineffable and thus can't be rationalized or intellectually considered.

I voice recorded a regular DMT trip and was absolutely unable to describe the sensation or what was happening. I was barely even tripping hard compared to a breakthrough and couldn't verbalize what was happening except to say it was "very serious".

I agree that there are states that are ineffable.

For example experiencing a 6th dimension, and when going out of the trip forgetting it. Because a human mindstream can not "hold" the memory/understanding of a 6th dimension. Not really. One can play around with it in a mathematical way, but you can't apprehend a 6th dimensional object fully in this bardo/life. Maybe some freaks can, I can't. 

But the real deciding states for Realization/Enlightenment (not just exploring the Multiverse, or Subtle States getting a Neurotransmitter-Update to experience the 6th dimension, only to later forget all of that), are what Ken Wilber calls Causal and Nondual States. About these states (at least how to train them, how to progress towards their realization) can be talked/pointed to, and has been done quite efficiently in the past in certain traditions, see below.

Causal States are based on the experience of the totally Empty Impersonal Consciousness/Nothingness of ones mindstream, normally without visual field or not including it (Infinite Whiteout, Cessation, or somtimes defined as just fully understanding the totally empty groundlessness/impersonal/Nothingness of the essence of ones mindstream, which also works and to which the Mahamudra-system brings one very efficiently, see "Simultaneous Mind" and "mindfulness without activity and not taking to mind." in Pointing out the Great Way, see post above).

Nondual States is seeing/realizing that Nothingness as the essence of the infinite nondual boundaryless Opening of Reality (including the visual field). In practice: staying in the "simultaneous mind" and "mindfulness without activity and not taking to mind." as defined in Pointing out the Great Way long enough will turn the visual field nondual with enough practice.

Examining Reality in these states (and some proficiency in them) is necessary for understanding ones True Identity, the Nature of Reality itself, or Basis Enlightenment/Full Enlightenment. It is the "entry ticket" for starting to get what one really is.

• Little off-topic comment: Of course, some lucky ones (Ramana, Sri Anandamayi Ma, .... fill in the blanks) get these states and the resulting insights for free. Good Karma, genetic freaks of nature, whatever). But they still had some versions of these states, and their energetic components. And the resulting insights/understandings/realizations.
  • If one gets Enlightenment fast, or easy, just an idea: Maybe one can't tell about the path if one jumped it, took "short-cuts", or took an airplane (causal&nondual states for free because karma/Endohuasca-system delivered the goodies without practice), while your fellow humans neither have an airplane nor can shortcut the path).

One can very well talk about how to identify these states when they happen, and about the training ladder of the path towards these states. See, for example, the following excerpt:

"Pointing out the Great Way, Daniel Brown:

PUTTING MEDITATIVE EXPERIENCE INTO WORDS
A good deal of Western scholarship on religion assumes that mystical experience is ineffable. Mystical states are said to be so profound that they are indescribable. This view is wrong.

Rechungpa, a contemporary of the great Tibetan saint Milarepa, wrote an extremely detailed work on all the changes that occur in the body and mind at the moment of enlightenment. The most striking feature of his Clear Wisdom Mandmudra is the extreme technical precision used to describe internal states. As a tradition, Tibetan Buddhism is perhaps unique in the level of technical precision used to describe
meditation experience; there is nothing comparable in Western mystical literature [and in my perspective, nothing quite comparable anywhere else. Zen tended to burn the scriptures anyway, and the Theravada-system don't have quite the level of sophistication/literature/techniques, although they also have a lot going for them and apparently work (Daniel Ingram, Frank Yang, others)]. Western mysticism largely has been restricted to individual practitioners, small groups, or time-limited movements, wherein the mystics either didn't express their spiritual attainments in much detail, or expressed these attainments in idiosyncratic ways according to their unique realizations and cultural context.

Tibetan Buddhism, in contrast, is a highly organized lineage tradition that has been around since the seventh century, with Indian roots that go back much further. The early oral tradition spawned a loose but extensive network of itinerate practitioners who shared or traded teachings and specific spiritual exercises. The monastic tradition beginning in the eleventh century was characterized by tightly organized, stable communities of large groups of meditators who engaged in continuous dialogues about meditative attainments. They developed an elaborate inner science of spiritual development. During this period the technical language for spiritual development became more consensual, technically sophisticated, and refined as standards for discussing attainments developed. This body of technical knowledge was transmitted from generation to generation until the present day. The central problem then for the Western reader in understanding spiritual development in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition is not its alleged ineffability but the opposite: namely, understanding the vast and sophisticated technical language of internal meditative experience. This book is designed to give the reader a precise map of internal meditative states. "

Bon voyage!

Selling Water by the River

[josemar]

15 hours ago, Water by the River said:

With psychedelics, you don't need to empty (or have transcended the separate self) at all. 5 MeO will do that for, even if you don't want. Not fully empty, not the last step (no traces of  Individuality/transparent witness left, see above), but very very much.

Have you done 5 Meo @Water by the River ? Because from your description "not fully empty" doesn't resonate here. There isn't a separate self to be empty or not, it's only on the comedown when the separate self reassembles that the non-experience is re-contextualized into whatever the separate self deems worthy or valuable.

This is why meditation and/or realizing the true nature of thoughts is very important in this work @Breakingthewall, since 5 MeO will show the Truth (and this is not a precise description, better [but still imperfect] would be that there is only Truth, without it being 'shown' to anyone), but then this will be "understood" or "integrated" on the comedown and in coming days by whatever concepts the separate self maintains at the time. If it deems it still needs "others", then 5 MeO will have showed that the One Consciousness is in others as well. If it deems "I'm not worthy" for whatever reason, then 5 MeO will have showed more trips needed to purify myself. But, if through consistent meditation/contemplation, the separate self is mostly empty, the 5MeO energy will be less diminished by the need to disassemble a heavy separate self.

@Water by the River I appreciate a lot your/Brown's take on the nature of thoughts, but I think on this website, majority of readers will go over your text, think about it for a minute, "understand it", then move on with their life, not sensing that the most important in your descriptions will be the actual practice.

 

[Inliytened1]

21 minutes ago, josemar said:

 

This is why meditatio and/or realizing the true nature of thoughts is very important in this work @Breakingthewall, since 5 MeO will show the Truth (and this is not a precise description, better [but still imperfect] would be that there is only Truth, without it being 'shown' to anyone), but then this will be "understood" or "integrated" on the comedown and in coming days by whatever concepts the separate self maintains at the time. If it deems it still needs "others", then 5 MeO will have showed that the One Consciousness is in others as well. If it deems "I'm not worthy" for whatever reason, then 5 MeO will have showed more trips needed to purify myself. But, if through consistent meditation/contemplation, the separate self is mostly empty, the 5MeO energy will be less diminished by the need to disassemble a heavy separate self.

More accurate would be to say that on the ego's return it immediately commences its pursuit of self deception.   You had become God.   You had become Truth.   But the ego cannot allow that.  It must bring the dream back into existence and solidify it, for its own survival.    This is no different from an awakening via meditation.   Although, a natural awakening and a natural ego death, is more powerful than any psychedelic trip.  This is because it was not accessed with any cheat code.  It was accessed by being actual.  By Being.   This brings a bliss that taking a psychedelic can only dream of.  It also will be forever glued to the memory of God in human form on the return.  Far stronger then what God allows to be glued to the memory of the one who trips.  

Edited May 14, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Ayham]

I am happy something I posted led to a hot discussion 

[Inliytened1]

4 minutes ago, Ayham said:

I am happy something I posted led to a hot discussion 

You are complicating meditation.   Meditation should be two things.  It should be sitting and dwelling in what is actual - free from the mind.  And it should be self inquiring.   Only these two.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Water by the River]

54 minutes ago, josemar said:

Have you done 5 Meo @Water by the River ? Because from your description "not fully empty" doesn't resonate here. There isn't a separate self to be empty or not, it's only on the comedown when the separate self reassembles that the non-experience is re-contextualized into whatever the separate self deems worthy or valuable.

Hi Josemar,

Please excuse me not commenting on having done (in my country) illegal psychedelics in a public forum. But others have and publicly declared that, and are "quoteable", see below.

But what I can tell you that certain states, that can also be reached via meditation and that are extremely similiar to the 5 MeO experience, lead to states that are

• totally nondual
• infinite
• space and time have gone
• the identity left is NOTHING, really a empty nothing, a transparent witness without any properties. BUT with a very very subtle Individuality still left. And that is the problem.

So, the last frontier, which is extremely(!) subtle, is still there: Individuality, the last remnants of a nearly invisible transparant witness/separate self. Roger Thisdells stage 4, Not Self:

That is the stage where one works with the last remnants of a very very empty remaining separate-self. Impossible to describe in words. The last remnants of Individuality/Separate Self. This is what "Nonmeditation Yoga" of the Mahamudra System is cleaning up with, preparing for the Big Sudden Shift.

After watching the video, watch his next video 5 of the series, True No Self.

There is also a beautiful passage in Ken Wilbers "The Religion of Tomorrow: A Vision For The Future of the Great Traditions" on the transparent witness. Transparent Witness is a word not so perfectly fitting, because it can be already quite nondual.

 

 

>Because from your description "not fully empty" doesn't resonate here. There isn't a separate self to be empty or not, it's only on the comedown when the separate self reassembles that the non-experience is re-contextualized into whatever the separate self deems worthy or valuable.

I understand when you write "doesn't resonate here". It feels like you were totally rid of the separate self during 5 MeO. You can have a similiar feelings/impressions on the meditation path, see Roger Thisdells video and Frank Yang. But it is not fully gone.

And one CAN NOT imagine what is still there. Why it is not fully empty. Because IT IS the lense/separate self/transparent witness (although already nondual) that one is still looking out from. And I will never be able to proove that to you, or describe what still remains. That is why Basis/Great/Final Enlightenment is sudden, as described before. If one would understand what hinders the Great Enlightenment before it actually happening, it would happen immediately.

I can not proove that to you. But the fact that it goes away after the trip IS a very strong indication that not every aspect of the separate self was gone during the trip, because the Deep Identity Level Shift of Great Enlightenment DID NOT OCCUR. When you know what you are, you know what you are. Awake or not. 

There is a long "tradition" for example in Zen in differentiating between Enlightenment and Great Enlightenment. In other traditions also. In the firstly mentioned Enlightenment, one fully knows the nondual void/empty/mere appearance nature of the visual field, and that oneself is empty. But Bassui says for example: WHO is perceiving all of that. The Empty Void/Space can not perceive it. And Bassui says:

"At work, at rest, never stop trying to realize who it is that hears. Even though your questioning penetrates the unconscious, you won’t find the one who hears, and all your efforts will come to naught. Yet sounds can be heard, so question yourself to an even profounder level. At last every vestige of self-awareness will disappear and you will feel like a cloudless sky. Within yourself you will find no “I,” nor will you discover anyone who hears. This Mind is like the void, yet it hasn’t a single spot that can be called empty. Do not mistake this state for Self-realization, but continue to ask yourself even more intensely, “Now who is it that hears?” If you bore and bore into this question, oblivious to anything else, even this feeling of voidness will vanish and you won’t be aware of anything—total darkness will prevail. [Don’t stop here, but] keep asking with all your strength, “What is it that hears?” Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like someone who has come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face-to-face and the Dharma Ancestors past and present."

"Again, there are those who think that when one’s mental functions have ceased, leaving one like a decayed tree or cold stone, one has attained no-mindness; while still others maintain that in the practice of Zen a decisive point has been reached when one feels a deep void with awareness of neither inner nor outer, the entire body having become shining, transparent, and clear like a blue sky on a bright day. This last appears when the True-nature begins to manifest itself, but it cannot be called genuine Self-realization. Zen masters of old would call it the “deep pit of pseudo-emancipation.”

" Andeven though all of you becomes one mass of questioning as you turn inward and intently search the very core of your being, you will find nothing that can be termed Mind or Essence. Yet should someone call your name, something from within will hear and respond. Find out this instant who it is! If you push forward with your last ounce of strength at the very point where the path of your thinking has been blocked, and then, completely stymied, leap with hands high in the air into the tremendous abyss of fire confronting you—into the ever-burning flame of your own primordial nature—all ego-consciousness, all delusive feelings and thoughts and perceptions will perish with your ego-root and the true source of your Self-nature will appear [or any and all wrong identity/separate self structures/arisings get killed/transcended by ones True Being, Nothingness, the "ever-burning flame of your own primoridal nature". Deep complete Identity Level Shift, dropping the mistaken Identity of anything separate, however subtle, once and for all]. You will feel resurrected, all sickness having completely vanished, and will experience genuine peace and joy. You will be entirely free."

The same thing that happens on the meditation path happens also on the psychedelic path.

So luckily, there is a gentlemen who publicly comments on having done both: Frank Yang comments on the difference between 5 MeO (and what still remains in that), and what can be achieved by meditation.

 

"so when i tried 5meo DMT (God Molecule) three  years ago that was the last time i tried it  DJing the whole universe i had a breakthrough of Absolute Infinity slash  Emptiness slash _______ you can't describe it. three years later that state is right here  right now when i perceive the world it's a  360 degrees boundless infinite hologram perceiving  itself through One Sense Door there's not even a  sense door "God's 0 Sense Door" and every  single sensation both inside and outside  there's no inside outside syncs up to (and is  aware of) itself and it's been like that it's locked in for three months now nothing has changed  nothing this is a state that isn't affected by any  ..."

And on getting rid of the last lenses/filters of the separate self, very subtle:

"

or imagine what this would be like and even if  you take psychedelics when you're at 99 percent you're not going to get a glimpse of the  full thing because you're gonna have an  experience of enlightenment at 99 percent on  psychedelics that's a different order than locking enlightenment and abiding in it  permanently through the natural mind okay  

experience of enlightenment at 99 percent on  psychedelics that's a different order than locking enlightenment and abiding in it  permanently through the natural mind okay  that's not even go to the people who are only  maybe 1 percent or not even that, not even Stream Entry taking psychedelics and had a glimpse of  god consciousness. You can't glimpse enlightenment because once you glimpse IT you're enlightened!  Because enlightenment is not an experience that comes and goes that's why Jed Mckenna said  you're either awake or you're not. 

You can't glimpse enlightenment because once you glimpse IT you're enlightened! 

That would also be my main point. Awake or not, to use the nice statement/metaphor from Inliytened1.

To end with a personal oberservation: I know quite some contemporary people which are enlightened via mainly meditation. I know not single case of the pure or even mainly psychedelic path, where I would conclude that that case in enlightened. That doesn't mean it could not happen. Just that I am not aware of one. That also tells something about the likely statistics.

54 minutes ago, josemar said:

 

@Water by the River I appreciate a lot your/Brown's take on the nature of thoughts, but I think on this website, majority of readers will go over your text, think about it for a minute, "understand it", then move on with their life, not sensing that the most important in your descriptions will be the actual practice.

 

I know . But some will resonate with it, and will read it.

All I am doing is writing here because I enjoy it, and because the archive of posts generated would have been (at least for me) very valueable and useful some years ago...

Selling Water by the River

Edited May 14, 2023 by Water by the River

[Ayham]

@Inliytened1 but isn't that contemplation and self inquiry? 

I already do contemplation but not daily like meditation, but often, I consider those a different practice. 

 

[Inliytened1]

18 minutes ago, Ayham said:

@Inliytened1 but isn't that contemplation and self inquiry? 

I already do contemplation but not daily like meditation, but often, I consider those a different practice. 

 

It's the same practice in my view.  Inquiring into the nature of reality and self is meditation and also getting in touch with actuality is meditation.   Both are the same because at the root of realizing what you are is Actuality.   Have you sat and just stared at your hand for hours on end yer? Don't think- just be in touch with the actuality of your hand.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Inliytened1

[Ayham]

@Inliytened1

hmm, I will definitely do that, but I will keep it separate from meditation. 

[ZenAlex]

18 hours ago, Ayham said:

@Moksha
like, not to achieve something but to enjoy it for its own sake?
that sounds great in theory, but how do i actually get myself to enjoy it? 

Sounds like you've turned meditation too much into a goal oriented thing. Just let what happens, happens.

Letting go matters.