How to deal with emotions without spiritually bypassing them

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, UnbornTao said:

Emotion is implied to be caused by external circumstances, therefore we can only be at their effect. Emotions are activities done by us. If we assume that, then a logical conclusion could be then that the only solution is to manipulate the emotions' influence.

It's not merely implied. It's evident in the emotion itself. If somebody steps on your toe and you get angry, you don't just "get angry". You get angry at the person who stepped on your toe. The emotion has a directedness to it; it allocates attention and energy towards a particular goal. For more complex emotions, it's often harder to identify the directedness, but it's there.

[Juan]

14 hours ago, Yimpa said:

I do live alone; been like that for a while. However, I find myself not being able to study if I’m at home. My plan is to go to the library regularly since I enjoy being around people who are also studying. 

Ok I see, we work very different then, I love to study anywhere but when I’m alone, I can focus at best. 

[UnbornTao]

On 5/12/2023 at 1:13 PM, Carl-Richard said:

It's not merely implied. It's evident in the emotion itself. If somebody steps on your toe and you get angry, you don't just "get angry". You get angry at the person who stepped on your toe. The emotion has a directedness to it; it allocates attention and energy towards a particular goal. For more complex emotions, it's often harder to identify the directedness, but it's there.

Who's the one experiencing the emotion? Why do two individuals react differently to the same circumstance? Can't you not get angry at someone stepping on your toe? How come? What is the emotion for? Who are you doing it for? It might seem like one is the victim of external factors when it comes to emotions even though that's a paradigm or worldview, and a false one.

You can create emotions when conscious of what they are. Being at the source of them, you are empowered to be responsible for your experience rather than blaming circumstances. What you're describing is a reactive emotion which is more difficult to tackle since they're instinctive, appearing as "automatic". Don't confuse the fact that emotions happen at light speed with being at the effect of them.

Consider actors creating their emotions at will to suit their role and given situation. Another example: we generally wait for the "right" circumstances before we feel justified in generating enthusiasm. Can you create enthusiasm at will? Do "enthusiasm" right now. Intellectually, this is cute and simple but the reality of it is harder to grasp. Haven't done that yet.

P.S. I didn't communicate clearly at all in my previous post. What I said was that, as a culture, we assume emotions are caused by external factors, when in fact they might not be.

Edited May 13, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

@UnbornTao

The very word "emotion" stems from being put in "motion", hence the expression of "being moved", and also "being motivated". Whether it's mostly a reactive or proactive emotion, it's still directed towards something, and this becomes very clear if you introspect about your emotions experientially. So I see a strong case to be made for the idea of an external cause or impetus for emotions.

Now, you can be daydreaming about something and feel emotions based on that, which in that case, sure, you can't point to any immediate externalities (and it's just "created by you"), but still, the content of the emotion will direct your behavior towards something. Likewise, in a roleplay scenario, the emotions may be "manufactured", but if it's indeed an authentic experience of emotions, the emotions will still have directedness to them.

You can also be highly conscious of your internal state and be better at adjusting your behavior with respect to emotions, while an unconscious person may linger more on the emotions or be wholly unaware of them and how they might be perpetuating them, but still, you'll unavoidably experience the directedness of emotions.

I will also concede that you can be so very conscious to the point where emotions might seem almost non-existent or irrelevant from an outsider's perspective (as with some gurus or saints). But I would propose that these people are not "devoid" of emotion (or that they have decided to "not create emotions for themselves"), but rather that the intensity, duration and frequency of certain emotions is much lower compared to the average person. They still experience emotions, and the emotions still have directedness to them.

My point with this topic is that often the directedness goes unaddressed and you're stuck with either wallowing in not feeling good and not finding a way out, or you find a way out but in a way that doesn't actually address the directedness and instead short-circuits it (like with "letting go" or many other spiritual approaches, or something like distraction or future avoidance of associated activities) which enables the emotion to keep repeating itself or become worse over time. And even if you are able to address the directness and the emotion subsides, merely writing down the lesson will firstly increase the chance that you'll remember it, and secondly, you'll have the lesson crystallized in text format.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[Yimpa]

2 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Another example: we generally wait for the "right" circumstances before we feel justified in generating enthusiasm. Can you create enthusiasm at will? Do "enthusiasm" right now.

Reminds me of laughing yoga.

1 hour ago, Carl-Richard said:

The very word "emotion" stems from being put in "motion" (hence the expression of "being moved", and also "being motivated").

That’s genius, I didn’t see that!

[UnbornTao]

On 5/12/2023 at 6:23 PM, Carl-Richard said:

@UnbornTao

The very word "emotion" stems from being put in "motion", hence the expression of "being moved", and also "being motivated". Whether it's mostly a reactive or proactive emotion, it's still directed towards something, and this becomes very clear if you introspect about your emotions experientially. So I see a strong case to be made for the idea of an external cause or impetus for emotions.

Now, you can be daydreaming about something and feel emotions based on that, which in that case, sure, you can't point to any immediate externalities (and it's just "created by you"), but still, the content of the emotion will direct your behavior towards something. Likewise, in a roleplay scenario, the emotions may be "manufactured", but if it's indeed an authentic experience of emotions, the emotions will still have directedness to them.

You can also be highly conscious of your internal state and be better at adjusting your behavior with respect to emotions, while an unconscious person may linger more on the emotions or be wholly unaware of them and how they might be perpetuating them, but still, you'll unavoidably experience the directedness of emotions.

I will also concede that you can be so very conscious to the point where emotions might seem almost non-existent or irrelevant from an outsider's perspective (as with some gurus or saints). but I would propose that these people are not "devoid" of emotion (or that they have decided to "not create emotions for themselves"), but rather that the intensity, duration and frequency of certain emotions is much lower compared to the average person. They still experience emotions, and the emotions still have directedness to them.

My point with this topic is that often the directness goes unaddressed and you're stuck with either wallowing in not feeling good and not finding a way out, or you find a way out but in a way that doesn't actually address the directedness and instead short-circuits it (like with "letting go" or many other spiritual approaches, or something like distraction or future avoidance of associated activities) which enables the emotion to keep repeating itself or become worse over time. And even if you are able to address the directness and the emotion subsides, merely writing down the lesson will firstly increase the chance that you'll remember it, and secondly, you'll have the lesson crystallized in text format.

Experience emotion as an activity you're doing. Pay attention to components of that activity as you're feeling any emotion: perception, interpretation, meaning, extrapolation. These you do, they don't just fall on your ass.

I may move my body in order to reach my coffee mug. The action is motivated by me wanting to reach the mug, so it is directed towards that. Emotions have a purpose, you're the one who starts and leads the motion. When you say "they're directed at something" what I hear is "'I'm at the effect of emotions rather than being their source".

 

Edited June 19, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

31 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

When you say "they're directed at something" what I hear is "'I'm the victim of them".

I'm simply inquiring into the emotion and asking "what is the emotion for?", like you recommended in your previous post. Through that, I discover that emotions allocate attention and energy towards a particular goal. If that is inherently victimizing, then I guess it is, but then you're just as much a victim of your hand picking up a coffee mug, which sounds a bit silly.

[Razard86]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:52 AM, Sincerity said:

Personally I think Carl is using the word too broadly, but I'd say that the concept certainly exists. Example: A guy cannot attract women, craves to but disregards it and doesn't work on it because of spiritual truths coming from the absolute perspective. That's avoiding the problem, that's bypassing.

I agree. 

But that's the point, if he works on spiritual truths come from the absolute perspective he will discover his craving. The work illuminates EVERYTHING. It is an all encompassing endeavor that leads you to question everything you have ever done. Spirituality is the path of the naked, complete vulnerability. Self-love is self-knowledge. To truly love yourself you must know yourself. You must offer up all your guilt, your shame, your fears, your hatreds, you must offer up everything and leave nothing left. 

So you literally cannot spiritually bypass, it's a human corruption that creates a new fear and thus you will never awaken. You all have no idea how self-deception will create fears that trap you. Fear of insanity, TRAP. Fear of offending family members and friends, TRAP. Fear of spiritually bypassing, TRAP. Fear of going to jail for taking illegal substances, TRAP. Fear of losing motivation for life, TRAP. Fear of Death when uncomfortable feelings arise, HUGE TRAP. Fear of ultimately being all alone, ULTIMATE TRAP!!! 

[UnbornTao]

37 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

I'm simply inquiring into the emotion and asking "what is the emotion for?", like you recommended in your previous post. Through that, I discover that emotions allocate attention and energy towards a particular goal. If that is inherently victimizing, then I guess it is, but then you're just as much a victim of your hand picking up a coffee mug, which sounds a bit silly.

Are you saying that, since emotion has a purpose "outside" of yourself and seems to be precipitated by circumstance, that the "thing" responsible for its generation is then an external factor?

That it has a purpose doesn't mean it is generated by circumstances. We do hold emotions that way, generally speaking. If something positive happens to you, you may feel happy. If nothing happens at all and yet you're still happy, others might as well wonder what drug you're on. We use circumstances as an excuse to producing emotions, labeling that as "real" emotion; without the pretext, we assume the emotion has to be fake. Since you are responsible for generating them, circumstances aren't needed in order to generate emotions. And yet they fulfill their purpose.

For example: Why does one get angry? After looking into it, we might discover that anger is based on hurt and that it is a manipulation on our part to cover up the hurt. Hurt is also an activity you're doing. We're just ignorant of how that is so, and our job should be to grasp what we're doing.

[Carl-Richard]

11 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

Are you saying that, since emotion has a purpose "outside" of yourself and seems to be precipitated by circumstance, that the "thing" responsible for its generation is then an external factor?

Emotions often correlate with immediate external events, but often they don't (like when daydreaming), but the content of the emotion still addresses some externality, immediate or imagined.

 

11 hours ago, UnbornTao said:

That it has a purpose doesn't mean it is generated by circumstances. We do hold emotions that way, generally speaking. If something positive happens to you, you may feel happy. If nothing happens at all and yet you're still happy, others might as well wonder what drug you're on. We use circumstances as an excuse to producing emotions, labeling that as "real" emotion; without the pretext, we assume the emotion has to be fake. Since you are responsible for generating them, circumstances aren't needed in order to generate emotions. And yet they fulfill their purpose.

For example: Why does one get angry? After looking into it, we might discover that anger is based on hurt and that it is a manipulation on our part to cover up the hurt. Hurt is also an activity you're doing. We're just ignorant of how that is so, and our job should be to grasp what we're doing.

I guess when you're in a plane crash, you're handpicking which adrenaline molecules go into each cell in your body to generate panic?  Generally speaking, emotions seem to correlate with circumstances, and it's possible to weaken that correlation (through raising your consciousness), but the correlation still exists.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[UnbornTao]

On 5/14/2023 at 0:08 PM, Carl-Richard said:

Emotions often correlate with immediate external events, but often they don't (like when daydreaming), but the content of the emotion still addresses some externality, immediate or imagined.

 

I guess when you're in a plane crash, you're handpicking which adrenaline molecules go into each cell in your body to generate panic?  Generally speaking, emotions seem to correlate with circumstances, and it's possible to weaken that correlation (through raising your consciousness), but the correlation still exists.

The way you talk about this makes me think you still don't feel like you can own your emotions, and as a result might think of external factors as the cause, agent or source of emotion. Based on that perspective, emotions then seem to "come up" and you have no power in the matter. This is a disempowering viewpoint.

Reactive, instinctual feelings are tricky. In your example of a plane crash, I imagine that it'd still be possible for someone who's mastered emotions to be calm or to feel less fear, without acting it out. A Zen master may be able to remain calm in some of those situations, for example.

Again, practice generating enthusiasm now just because. Contrast that experience with your enthusiasm when it is seemingly catalyzed by circumstance. Notice it's the same experience. It can be generated without daydreaming or other forms of images. We might not have mastered this skill yet but it shows the creative aspect any individual has on her feelings and emotional state, and ultimately their experience.

On another note, external event isn't fixed or even objective as you will relate whatever's perceived to your self, personality, story, needs, wants, etc. Make finer distinctions within the experience of emotion: interpretation, meaning, projection, self-referencing, etc. These are all things you do, even if unconsciously. They are activities done by you prior to the result called "emotion". See? We just don't grasp it yet.

I'm pointing out that, instead of being victimized by circumstances, owning your experience (hence emotions and feelings) is an empowering shift one can make.

To be clear I'm not in favor of ignoring emotions. What you have sounds like it works for you. I find it useful too. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Carl-Richard]

48 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

The way you talk about this makes me think you still don't feel like you can own your emotions, and as a result might think of external factors as the cause, agent or source of emotion. Based on that perspective, emotions then seem to "come up" and you have no power in the matter. This is a disempowering viewpoint.

Reactive, instinctual feelings are tricky. In your example of a plane crash, I imagine that it'd still be possible for someone who's mastered emotions to be calm or to feel less fear, without acting it out. A Zen master may be able to remain calm in some of those situations, for example.

Like I said, you can raise your consciousness and increase your ability to regulate your emotions.

 

49 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Again, practice generating enthusiasm now just because. Contrast that experience with your enthusiasm when it is seemingly catalyzed by circumstance. Notice it's the same experience. It can be generated without daydreaming or other forms of images. We might not have mastered this skill yet but it shows the creative aspect any individual has on her feelings and emotional state, and ultimately their experience.

I remember when I was in the Rali cult, I would sometimes watch this video while trying to pour as much love into it as possible:

It certainly had a powerful effect on my mental state. So that is definitely possible. But then the next day, I could be crying because I got a bad grade on a test despite trying very hard. These things are not mutually exclusive  

 

55 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

On another note, external event isn't fixed or even objective as you will relate whatever's perceived to your self, personality, story, needs, wants, etc. Make finer distinctions within the experience of emotion: interpretation, meaning, projection, self-referencing, etc. These are all things you do, even if unconsciously. They are activities done by you prior to the result called "emotion". See? We just don't grasp it yet.

I can notice that some days, I'll be more conscious and I can "catch" an emotion as it occurs and consciously drop it, and it feels much better that way. But that is usually just for small annoyances like dropping something on the floor. When it comes to bigger things, you need much more stability to do that, and there is a danger in mistaking your ability to drop small annoyances for the ability to drop all emotions, while in reality you're unknowingly repressing an ongoing emotional response instead of working through it. That too I've experienced. So it's a tricky territory to navigate, and I'm just providing one perspective on how you can avoid these kinds of mistakes, and in this case, I'm focusing more on embracing the raw and maybe surface-level reality of the emotion rather than focusing on the subtle meta-levels, i.e. how emotions appear as pointers towards problems you need to solve, rather than how you can choose to drop emotions or create positive emotions for yourself.

[Schizophonia]

On 14/05/2023 at 1:18 AM, Razard86 said:

But that's the point, if he works on spiritual truths come from the absolute perspective he will discover his craving. The work illuminates EVERYTHING. It is an all encompassing endeavor that leads you to question everything you have ever done. Spirituality is the path of the naked, complete vulnerability. Self-love is self-knowledge. To truly love yourself you must know yourself. You must offer up all your guilt, your shame, your fears, your hatreds, you must offer up everything and leave nothing left. 

So you literally cannot spiritually bypass, it's a human corruption that creates a new fear and thus you will never awaken. You all have no idea how self-deception will create fears that trap you. Fear of insanity, TRAP. Fear of offending family members and friends, TRAP. Fear of spiritually bypassing, TRAP. Fear of going to jail for taking illegal substances, TRAP. Fear of losing motivation for life, TRAP. Fear of Death when uncomfortable feelings arise, HUGE TRAP. Fear of ultimately being all alone, ULTIMATE TRAP!!! 

Why be so concerned about awakening and spirituality in general if there are so many pitfalls and side effects? what is the benefit?
You don't even have concrete proof that you are right and that you are just not crazy on a forum lol.
It would be too easy if "the crazy people are just the others, I have deciphered reality and the traps under x substance".

But to come back to my real question: Why not just live your life like a normal human, and see what happens when you die?

[Carl-Richard]

On 15.5.2023 at 7:16 PM, Schizophonia said:

Why be so concerned about awakening and spirituality in general if there are so many pitfalls and side effects? what is the benefit?
You don't even have concrete proof that you are right and that you are just not crazy on a forum lol.

It's not that there is some proof that somebody can give to you. People can point you in roughly the right direction, but it's hard to do with words, and they may end up sounding like a crazy person.

Edited May 18, 2023 by Carl-Richard