Can we live without beliefs ?

[Someone here]

A belief is the acceptance that something is true without having proof cause if we have proof we just know it.
Can you not believe in religion,in ethics, not even to yourself?
So can we make decisions without calling it truth just by calling it an opinion or theory living in uncertainty?
Can a human function this way or is it too much to handle?
If people chose subconsciously by some instinct of self preservation to believe in their first rationalization just cause it makes them feel better with purpose then what about people who call themselves unbelievers(not just about god) are they above self preservation instincts?
Can you function with "rationality" and skepticism?
Are all our opinions biased and limited so probably all wrong(does that make them wrong)?.

[Carl-Richard]

5 minutes ago, Someone here said:

A belief is the acceptance that something is true without having proof cause if we have proof we just know it.

Give an example of a belief you have.

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Give an example of a belief you have.

Two examples:

1-That there isn't a Chinese teapot revolving around planet Mars. I believe that. Without evidence. 

2-that you are conscious just like me .

 

[Federico del pueblo]

@Someone here I think that we can't. 

You must believe something like "my body needs water to survive" to actually drink it. Probably the fact that it has worked well so far (you've been drinking water and haven't died from thirst) is enough for you to believe it's true.

Imagine where it would take you if you were deeply doubtful about these most basic things ?

[UnbornTao]

Belief is a thought you have about what's true. Tons of beliefs can be dropped. When it comes to living, it's not so much about discarding beliefs altogether but about establishing a different relationship towards them. Useful beliefs can be kept as long as they're recognized as beliefs, and as long as we don't confuse them with an experience of what's true.

You'd need to learn to tolerate the space or uncertainty that that would have on your experience.

Edited May 10, 2023 by UnbornTao

[Someone here]

3 minutes ago, Federico del pueblo said:

@Someone here I think that we can't. 

You must believe something like "my body needs water to survive" to actually drink it. Probably the fact that it has worked well so far (you've been drinking water and haven't died from thirst) is enough for you to believe it's true.

Imagine where it would take you if you were deeply doubtful about these most basic things ?

So if we need belief in order to function..that doesn't make a belief true . But you are saying it might not be verified as true but we 'need it '. This is called pragmatism .

 yours is the pragmatic and accepting view. IMO.

In our real lives..there is much uncertainty.  more than many would care to admit. Correspondingly ..there is less knowledge..and much more belief than some are happy to discuss.

[Someone here]

2 minutes ago, UnbornTao said:

Belief is a thought you have about what's assumed to be true. Tons of beliefs can be dropped. When it comes to living, it's not so much about discarding beliefs altogether but about setting a different relationship towards them. Useful beliefs can be kept as long as they're recognized to be beliefs, and we don't confuse them with what's true.

You'd need to learn to tolerate the space or uncertainty that that would have on your experience.

Yes but to what degree exactly we should not mix truth with belief?  What is the criteria to distinguish truth from belief? 

It is a practical matter. A question of resources. It is not necessary to verify every belief. This should only be done when necessary.

Each concept always has a probability less than 100% of corresponding to reality. There is no way of knowing which of our concepts have an absolute correspondence.  So acknowledging beliefs as beliefs is not as Easy as it may sound .

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, Someone here said:

Two examples:

1-That there isn't a Chinese teapot revolving around planet Mars. I believe that. Without evidence. 

2-that you are conscious just like me .

Then I would say no, you can't live without beliefs. If you leave your car in your garage every day and then one day you open the garage and find out it's stolen, you will act very surprised. The reaction is explained by you believing that the car was still in the garage. Had you instead believed that the car was stolen prior to opening the garage, your reaction would be very different. The belief is of course not always congruent with reality, but often it is, and it helps you to survive by reducing complexity and organizing your cognition. Also, you don't choose your beliefs. You can't help yourself but act surprised when you open the garage and find there is no car in there.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Carl-Richard

[zurew]

You can't live without beliefs - there are things that you can't test and you need to assume to be true (for pragmatic reasons).

[Someone here]

31 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Then I would say no, you can't live without beliefs. If you leave your car in your garage every day and then one day you open the garage and find out it's stolen, you will act very surprised. The reaction is explained by you believing that the car was still in the garage. Had you instead believed that the car was stolen prior to opening the garage, your reaction would be very different. The belief is of course not always congruent with reality, but often it is, and it helps you to survive by reducing complexity and organizing your mental states. Also, you don't choose your beliefs. You can't help yourself but act surprised when you open the garage and there is no car in there.

Good example. 
If belief is just choosing subconsciously the rationalization you find more comfortable to justify the world then is acting surprised  when you Don't find the car was triggered by your belief that objects Don't just disappear for no reason.? So you have to believe that objects just don't disappear just cause.

What  I want to know if you can escape irrationality.
For instance..When you give a task to a person and you say you trust him i think you subconsciously calculate his chances success and call it trust.You don't have the processing power to calculate the person or the universe(if that's even possible) so you act on probability..on percentages.
If your actions are based on probability then they can be wrong but you have to act..action is life..decision is life.So if decision is acting on probability then isn't decision a belief?Maybe with calculation and proof the universe doesn't need beliefs but in a lifetime of a person aren't all our actions based on belief?If decisions are just bad math(and life is a decision)they have no absolute purpose you can choose love..hate..virtue..suffering..pleasure,or just end it all and you can't say any of them is right or wrong.

14 minutes ago, zurew said:

You can't live without beliefs - there are things that you can't test and you need to assume to be true (for pragmatic reasons).

Yea i came to something of a similar conclusion myself and i was looking for something that opposes this thought.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Someone here

[ZoweeZoe]

These are just my initial thoughts, but I think everything has truth in it, while it is simultaneously false. Beliefs are things which are self evident. Truths are beliefs which have been proofed, regardless of one's beliefs.

But if you are saying that you are the body, if that is your belief, you would need beliefs to function. The body is a believing machine.

[Hojo]

@Federico del pueblo  I was thinking that the feeling of needing water dosent need thought its just a state of consciousness. Any state of consciousness coming with an understanding of what it is. So a cat dosent drink water cause it thinks to drink water its thirsty which is a state of consciousness that automatically will know to go drink water without knowing what drinking or what water is.

Edited May 10, 2023 by Hojo

[Federico del pueblo]

@Hojo makes sense! 

[Israfil]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

A belief is the acceptance that something is true without having proof cause if we have proof we just know it.
Can you not believe in religion,in ethics, not even to yourself?
So can we make decisions without calling it truth just by calling it an opinion or theory living in uncertainty?
Can a human function this way or is it too much to handle?
If people chose subconsciously by some instinct of self preservation to believe in their first rationalization just cause it makes them feel better with purpose then what about people who call themselves unbelievers(not just about god) are they above self preservation instincts?
Can you function with "rationality" and skepticism?
Are all our opinions biased and limited so probably all wrong(does that make them wrong)?.

There are things that are true that can't be proven. They're truths, not beliefs.

There are rational beliefs too. The belief that everything must be proven is also a statement to be proved.

[Theplay]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Two examples:

1-That there isn't a Chinese teapot revolving around planet Mars. I believe that. Without evidence. 

2-that you are conscious just like me .

 

I know it sounds new age but I have something to comment on number 2:

This will always stay a belief but hear I choose to listen to my heart.

Not the mind.

The heart.

And it tells me there are other sentient beings.

This is the only healthy belief and you can live without any others.

Grounding your world view and drawing your conclusions from direct experience.

Daniel. 

[Someone here]

@Theplay what is the "heart "?

[Theplay]

@Someone here Its like the mind is for thought,

the heart is for emotion.

Another avenue through which to explore the world.

And I would argue that how you feel is the most important thing for you.

Most of humanity is going around chasing the feeling of pleasure or happiness.

They use the mind to do that ,

but the emotion is what they truly seek.

Namaste

 

[Someone here]

Just now, Theplay said:

@Someone here Its like the mind is for thought,

the heart is for emotion.

Another avenue through which to explore the world.

And I would argue that how you feel is the most important thing for you.

Most of humanity is going around chasing the feeling of pleasure or happiness.

They use the mind to do that ,

but the emotion is what they truly seek.

Namaste

 

Thanks . So sweet .

Namaste .

btw..if you don't mind ..where are you from ? Are you Indian (I'm asking because only Indians say Namaste ?).

[SOUL]

Why do people always add the 'without proof' part to it? Belief doesn't require that it's trusting something is true without proof though, yes, you can believe something without proof but it isn't the only thing that is a belief.

If you have 'proof' it doesn't mean you 'know' which is different from 'believing' because 'knowing' something is built upon a system of beliefs like trusting appearance is true, that perception is true, that understanding is true, that concepts are true, that trusting your direct experience is true.

Since we can't cease to 'believe' something why set up a limiting 'belief' that eliminating all beliefs is some goal to attain. Just accept that we believe and examine those beliefs to find whether they help or harm our being present.

[Carl-Richard]

I would also add that beliefs don't necessarily need to have zero proof (but I would have to challenge your idea of proof). What you mean by proof in this case would be direct experience, but there are many other types of proof beyond that. For example, you can get convincted for a crime based on DNA tests, but the test doesn't "prove" (in your definition of the term) that you actually committed the crime. It only gives you a strong indication that you likely committed the crime (depending on the context), but yet we tend to call that proof (or evidence). That's just one example, but even the fact that you left the car in the garage is in a way proof that the car is in the garage (it's just maybe not a strong proof). So a belief doesn't need to have zero proof, but rather a belief can always be wrong.