Need supplement advice as a vegan

[The Caretaker]

Right now I take the following supplements: D3, B vitamins, mineral spectrum, and creatine monohydrate (mostly to boost my workouts). I did a blood test recently and my B12 was barely above the bare minimum (something like 260 from a range of 250-750), however, my minerals seemed just about fine (Iron, Calcium, and Zinc). Don't have any problems with sleep, focus, or general energy levels during the day, just want to be cautious with deficits and have an extra umf.

For Omega I eat plenty of nuts/algae/tofu. And as far as I know, those are all the most common issues.

Usually, I take the supplements with water, but I have 3 general questions:

1. If I take all the supps above at once, will they get fully absorbed?
2. Creatine is recommended to take with something sweet (like juice or sweetened milk) for better absorption. Is this true?
3. My B comlex it's very concentrated, up to the point where my piss becomes saturated yellow for half of the day. However, today I took all my supps with juice (including vitamin B) and my urine was the normal color. + it's overall "dangerous" to take such a high dosage of B vitamins?

Thanks for any feedback in advance.

[integral]

Supplement with animal products. 

[Michael569]

You could try a sublingual B12 drops, 1000 mcg for a month then test again (withdraw the supplement 48 hrs before the test)  for better absorption, and hold it under the tongue for a minute - that method of administration is similar to intravenous application 

In terms of testing, consider getting a tissue B12 assessment - look up a private test called "Methylmalonic Acid", you want your results of MMA to be as low as possible. It will be a bit more expensive than serum B12 and unlikely to be done by doctor so you need to go private. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by Michael569

[EugeneTheSage]

@The Caretaker My piss is also highly yellow-green. But when I checked the forms of the b vitamins in my B-complex supplement I figured out that I've had not the best forms, so they aren't absorbing well.
Besides vitamins B aren't fat soluble, they are water soluble - that means your body can't accumulate much of them, and the excess excretes with the urine.
For omega 3s you can take algae oil which contains both DHA and EPA. Nuts and seeds contain only ALA which can convert into DHA and EPA but the rate of conversion depends on your genes. There is a FADS1 genetic test that evaluates the rates of conversion.

[The Caretaker]

@Michael569Thanks. I will look into it. For the most part, I've considered only pills and powders to supplement, but never anything more "exotic". Will look up if we even have those tests in our region

Also, do you have any inputs on those parts?

23 hours ago, The Caretaker said:

• If I take all the supps above at once, will they get fully absorbed?
• Creatine is recommended to take with something sweet (like juice or sweetened milk) for better absorption. Is this true?
• My B comlex it's very concentrated, up to the point where my piss becomes saturated yellow for half of the day. However, today I took all my supps with juice (including vitamin B) and my urine was the normal color. + it's overall "dangerous" to take such a high dosage of B vitamins?

@EugeneTheSage Thank you. Will look up at this as well. From all the mentioned sources, algae are the least consistent in my diet. I was certain that I get enough from other sources.

[integral]

I'm not seeing why eating an egg and drinking milk once a week isn't good enough.

It beats all supplementation and meets the moral requirements. 

If we learn from the experiences of other vegans, they always go back to some sort of animal product after years of issues.

Fools never learn, the smart learn from there mistakes and the wise learn from the mistakes of others. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by integral

[Michael569]

1 hour ago, The Caretaker said:

Also, do you have any inputs on those parts?

On 06/05/2023 at 8:56 PM, The Caretaker said:

• If I take all the supps above at once, will they get fully absorbed?
• Creatine is recommended to take with something sweet (like juice or sweetened milk) for better absorption. Is this true?
• My B comlex it's very concentrated, up to the point where my piss becomes saturated yellow for half of the day. However, today I took all my supps with juice (including vitamin B) and my urine was the normal color. + it's overall "dangerous" to take such a high dosage of B vitamins?

yeah, cross-supplementation of those shouldn't impact absorption. Yellow urine from B vitamins is normal and benign. Not sure about creatine absorption, but I probably wouldn't worry about it. 

That B12 is something you need to focus on with priority. 

First of all just get it retested in some time and see what the trend is. In addition, figure out if you can find the MMA test, 

If the B12 keeps coming low even after supplementation,  it may be an absorption issue at which case they need to dig deeper and run maybe the following panel to if there isn't an issue at the level of the stomach lining or proximal intestine. Your doctor can run numerous tests such as the below to test for those: 

• intrinsic factor antibodies test 
• parietal cell antibodies test 
• gastrin test 

In addition, I would potentially even consider Coeliac testing if nothing else comes up. 

 

[undeather]

52 minutes ago, integral said:

I'm not seeing why eating an egg and drinking milk once a week isn't good enough.

It beats all supplementation and meets the moral requirements. 

If we learn from the experiences of other vegans, they always go back to some sort of animal product after years of issues.

Fools never learn, the smart learn from there mistakes and the wise learn from the mistakes of others. 

Please tell me how "eating an egg and drinking milk once a week" is beating out B12 supplementation for example.
Even if you use the commonly used RDA of 2,4 micograms B12 a day (which is the low end) - you need to eat at least 25 eggs or drink 3+ litres of cow milk to get to meet your weekly B12-requirement. I am not even accounting for absorption dynamics if you do this in one day, which would make the calculation even more ridicolous.

Either supplement B12 as a vegan or include animal prodcuts as a whole food group in your diet. 

Again, you are giving advice without knowing what you are talking about.
Potentially harming people. 

[integral]

@undeather The assumption is B12 needs to be taken everyday. 

59 minutes ago, undeather said:

Again, you are giving advice without knowing what you are talking about.
Potentially harming people. 

Why are you so confident that you know what your talking about? 

---

The point of the post was to signal that its ok to be vegetarian, also eggs and milk have nutrients that they are not getting from supplementation, I wasn't focusing on B12. The b12 problem looks pretty bad I didnt realize how little of it was inside eggs and milk, so it makes sense to supplement your right. But its also unlikely a b-complex is healthy. 

Edited May 7, 2023 by integral

[undeather]

Quote

The assumption is B12 needs to be taken everyday. 

I did not assume anything.
You said "once a week" and I calculated the requirement accordingly.
It takes a long time to deplete the B12-reservoir, but intake needs to happen periodically and withthe right circumstances.

Quote

Why are you so confident that you know what your talking about? 

Part of my job as a gastroentrologist is to treat people with malabsorption issues.
B12 is particularly tricky because some GI-patients just lack so called "intrinsic factor", which is produced in your stomach.
Intrinsic factor is the key to B12-absorption in the terminal Ileum (small intestines). 
Besides that, there are functional B12-issues, which can be even more tricky to pin down.

I have co-authored papers and give lectures to students about this topic.
I am pretty confident I got the basics down.
 

[Michael569]

@undeather what is the prevalence of gut issues when it comes to B12 malabsorption, e.g. pernicious anaemia. Is that fairly common in your experience? 

If not what would you say is the most common cause of b12 deficiency where supplementation is optimised for?

[integral]

@undeather The problem with veganism is a lot more them B12, my comment is not about B12. 

2 hours ago, undeather said:

Part of my job as a gastroentrologist is to treat people with malabsorption issues.
B12 is particularly tricky because some GI-patients just lack so called "intrinsic factor", which is produced in your stomach.
Intrinsic factor is the key to B12-absorption in the terminal Ileum (small intestines). 
Besides that, there are functional B12-issues, which can be even more tricky to pin down.

I have co-authored papers and give lectures to students about this topic.
I am pretty confident I got the basics down.

How many people have you successfully threated and how do you know they are healthier with your intervention?

Every doctor will point to there diploma to deceive them selves into thinking they know what they are talking about. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by integral

[undeather]

1 hour ago, Michael569 said:

@undeather what is the prevalence of gut issues when it comes to B12 malabsorption, e.g. pernicious anaemia. Is that fairly common in your experience? 

If not what would you say is the most common cause of b12 deficiency where supplementation is optimised for?

It depends on the severity and duration of the underlying condition.
We regularly observe low levels of B12 in patients with all kinds of chronic GI-disorders. In fact, I would argue that most patients who visit us come with some form of  vitamin/mineral defficiency - it's part of our general screening procedure but we tend to be conservative with long term supplementation since most of it will normalize under a adequate diet when der underlying issue is solved.

Late stage manifestations like pernicious anaemia or neurological disorders are very rare. 
It's especially prevalent in small intestine centered Crohn's or celiac disease.

However, outside the edge cases - the most common cause is a fucked up diet or drug induced side effect (metformin for example)

Quote

 

How many people have you successfully threated and how do you know they are healthier with your intervention?

Every doctor will point to there diploma to deceive them selves into thinking they know what they are talking about. 

 

Personally? Puhh, difficult to say - I have worked with many patients + study populations over the years.
The great thing about deficiencies is that once you give the body what it needs, people tend to get better rapidly.

How do I know if they are healthier?
Well, patients tell me that they feel better. Their biomarkers improve. They act and move differently. It's in concordance with scientific evidence.
I dont know what you want me to say. I guess all of those reasons and more.

Yes, doctors are humans too and sometimes they deceive themselves.
Yet years of training and experiences treating patients are not worth nothing.
It's laughable when people on the internet somehow think they know "more" - when in reality, their whole knowledge is based on fringe online personalities and youtube university.

[integral]

12 minutes ago, undeather said:

How do I know if they are healthier?
Well, patients tell me that they feel better. Their biomarkers improve. They act and move differently. It's in concordance with scientific evidence.
I dont know what you want me to say. I guess all of those reasons and more.

I don't believe you. I think your focused on being right and that's more important then the truth. 

[undeather]

7 minutes ago, integral said:

I don't believe you. I think your focused on being right and that's more important then the truth. 

Sure.

[M A J I]

The more you take supplements, the more you train the body to rely on external sources to provide what the body needs, so overtime the body becomes weaker in its ability to efficiently produce/recreate/circulate its own. Just eat (whole foods) and maybe take some Shilajit, its all you really need if you ask me. Most of them are not needed if you eat (organic) produce and live with daily exposure to dirt and the sun for B12 and D3. Fruit is loaded with B-vitamins.

[The Caretaker]

@integral Answering your question. I became vegan like ~2 months ago. And I did the test right before that, when I was still on a vegetarian diet. I still eaten animal products for the past 3 years. My low level is either from bad absorption or "bad" animal products.

Also, I do consider that I will return to vegetarian, but mostly for social/taste reasons, if my vegan trial will do more harm than good to me. I am not fanatic about this, but can't accept/reject a lifestyle without trying it first either.

@Michael569 Thanks, will look into that. I will do a test in a few months (or sooner if I will feel weaker/mental fog). If my overall level will rise, I guess nothing to worry about. In rest, I have a plan from you guys . Will remember to not take the sups 48h before the test tho.

@M A J ISadly we don't live in a truly healthy society, and such lifestyle could work only in a village with self cultivated products. Otherwise, you don't really know what you are putting in your plate and what deficiency will rise out of it.

[Michael569]

4 hours ago, integral said:

I don't believe you. I think your focused on being right and that's more important then the truth. 

While this conversation is none of my business, I can attest that I've consulted a few very difficult client cases with @undeather through PMs over the last 2 years, and his advice has helped me prepare better plans, request better tests and generally help a few complex clients on a better scale. Take that testimonial for whatever it's worth; personally, I'm grateful to have someone like that around here, considering he is sharing high-quality advice for free and considering a lot of health information being exchanged around here is going beyond common quackery.  There wasn't any external agenda included, he never asked any money, nor to send him patients nor for a review or anything like that in exchange and he doesn't even have a website in his signature so not sure what the ultimate goal would be. 

I think we have to recognise the limitations of our knowledge and be humble enough when presented with the opportunity of further learning or with the opportunity to correct our worldview. Especially where public health is concerned. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Michael569

[integral]

33 minutes ago, Michael569 said:

While this is none of my business, I can attest that I've consulted a few very difficult client cases with @undeather through PMs over the last 2 years, and his advice has helped me prepare better plans, request better tests and generally help a few complex clients on a better scale. Take that testimonial for what it's worth, personally, I'm grateful to have someone like that around here, considering he is sharing high-quality advice for free.  There wasn't any external agenda included, he never asked any money, review or anything like that in exchange and he doesn't even have a website in his signature so not sure what the ultimate goal would be. 

I think we have to recognise the limitations of our knowledge and be humble enough when presented with the opportunity of further learning or with opportunity to correct our worldview 

Guys I'm not saying your practice has no value, of course you've helped people, but that guy prescribes a statin a day and tells me his patients all have fantastic results. I'm more interested in a more balanced view that some improved, most made no progress and some got worse. So from there I'm saying he's trying to prove he's right instead of the truth by cherry picking results. Most doctors focus on the things they have a good track record of success and ignore the areas they don't have much success and point to "we are doing the best we can with the data with have" with out questioning there epistemology.

On 4/28/2023 at 10:27 AM, integral said:

around 3:00 "lowering your ldl cholesterol these researchers found that there was no consistent relationship between lowering ldl c with a statin and your risk of death, heart attack or stroke"

Long term risks of statins use "Lower testosterone levels, higher glucose, lower CoQ10, muscle pain and worse"

Alternative opinion on statins from a heart surgeon

@undeather Explain why these studies don't change how you feel about statins? 

Edited May 8, 2023 by integral

[M A J I]

12 hours ago, The Caretaker said:

@M A J ISadly we don't live in a truly healthy society, and such lifestyle could work only in a village with self cultivated products. Otherwise, you don't really know what you are putting in your plate and what deficiency will rise out of it.

I agree with that our city environments are very polluted and toxic but I disagree that such a lifestyle could "only" work in a village. I have been plant-based for over 10 years and rarely use supplements and most of those years lived in the city.

I shop at local organic markets where the produce is (certified organic) so you know that they are not sprayed or treated with chemicals because they can get heavily sued, and you can taste and feel the difference if you are used to organic produce. Having an organic garden helps a lot.

90% of my illnesses have completely vanished after going plant-based and doing many water fasts and detoxification cleanses on fruit and vegetable juices and raw food and spending more time in nature. Even when I am living in the city, I can bring the nature home by creating garden beds, growing fruits and veggies, building my own soil/compost system, bringing in more house plants and creating a harmonious environment wherever I am. Its not perfect but life goes on.

Never experienced any deficiencies but mere detox symptoms from time to time.

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by M A J I