Don't Let Anyone Tell You Democrats Are Different Than Republicans

[Danioover9000]

@Husseinisdoingfine

57 minutes ago, Husseinisdoingfine said:

I made a point in this thread about voting third party, @Razard86 I recommend you give it a shot in the next election. By third party, I mostly mean the Green Party.

 

   Why should we vote for the green party as third party?

[Hardkill]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@Husseinisdoingfine

   Why should we vote for the green party as third party?

Exactly.

You know what? Instead of complaining that the Democrats aren’t doing enough or voting for a third party, which doesn’t work in America like it does in other countries that have a multi-party system such as Ireland or Scandinavia, why not create or join a movement on the ground that will help the Democrats gain enough support for more good policies to be passed by Congress?

[Husseinisdoingfine]

I also like the PSL, they actually did run a candidate in 2020. Though they're not as big as the Greens, hence struggle much more than the Greens with ballot access, meaning they're not going to be on the election ballot in every state. The Greens also struggle with ballot access because the Democrats keep sabotaging them, but to a lesser extent.

The only Democrats I would EVER consider voting for are the ones affiliated with the DSA. All other Democrats can go to hell.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Husseinisdoingfine

[Hardkill]

We also DESPERATELY NEED our labor unions to regain the power they had during the mid 1900s. I think that that will be key to greatly reducing the power or influence that corporate donors and other megadonors have on Democrats. After all, one reason why the Democratic Party switched from being the party of farms, organized labor, and racial minorities to that of being the party of Wall Street, white collar workers, and racial minorities is due to the fact that labor unions have kept losing their power and size since the 70s. Rural America has also been on the decline since the mid 1900s, but at the same time still consist of virtually all white Americans who hold strong and largely archaic conservative American values, don't trust the government as much as suburban and urban Americans do, and have a much more homogenous culture that's more fearful and hold more resentment of racial integration and foreigners immigrating into this country. That's probably why farmers have continued to lose much influence on the Democratic Party, which of course since the mid 1900s has increasingly the represented liberalism/progressivism, civil rights, pro-immigration, urban America, and to some extent suburban America.

This idea might also work to some extent on reducing the influence that corporations and the top 1% of wealthy Americans have on the Republican Party, even though the GOP has always been since the 1910s to 1920s the party of Wall Street, the most wealthy individuals, and conservative white christian Americans.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Hardkill

[abundance]

Compare and contrast this to Republicans banning books, threatening Civil War every 5 mins,banning abortions, trying to steal elections, allowing every crazed lunatic to purchase assault weapons, threatening corporations who don't align with their values, holding the economy hostage by allowing the US to default just to pass their agenda (which isn't in favor of the working class), trying to legalize child labor, trying to impose Christian nationalism on everyone, stoking stohastic terrorism by deliberately spreading misinfo to their lunatic base, denying systemic racism, denying climate change, calling Dems pedophiles when they're constantly involved in some scandal that involes sexual misconduct or pedophilia, opposing expanding healthcare, opposing student debt relief, opposing a livable wage, praising foreign dictators, etc etc etc

 

No. Both parties are NOT the same.

 

[sholomar]

The left in the US have some bad traits to them. The main ones are going soft on crime in big cities creating a sort of lawlessness. Wal-marts are starting to shut down in the worst offenders such as Illinois. Why such a badge of honor by allowing criminals to not get punished for crimes? Society needs law and order. Virtually all these locations are places that prosecutors and judges make it a badge of honor to not punish criminals.

https://sports.yahoo.com/walmart-closing-batch-stores-2023-161826876.html

There's also this push by the American left (not so much the Europeans) to reward mediocrity in society.  It's okay to do bad in school, not graduate, because they're a different culture... their culture isn't good at math, and other excuses and justifications. These two things aren't going to end well if they aren't nipped in the bud.  Leftists have this socialist utopian fantasy of how they think the world should operate that would never actually work if applied due to human nature and evolution itself. Leftists ignore the science when it offends them. It's their one major flaw.  Because they are a sort of cult, they like to take the opposite side that the "right" does just to spite them, which makes some of their policy choices not make sense.  It's like a drug addict who knows the drug is bad but refuses to quit.. that's what the left reminds me of sometimes.  That said, I'm not a huge fan of the right either. Pick your poison I guess.

Still, lots of leftists can't see why someone might vote republican, and there are justified reasons to do so.  I see them as brainwashed by mainstream media narratives, just like the right gets brainwashed by their alt right media sources.  All conservatives are authoritarian racist nationalists, blah blah blah. LOL No, as a moderate I want the best and brightest to excel, no matter their skin color. American society more and more is rewarding mediocrity and outright bad behavior.  I see this push for equity over equality that is NEVER going to work, and will not end well.

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by sholomar

[trenton]

@Razard86 I have to disagree with you quite a bit.

The difference between the Democratic party and the Republican party is an attempted insurrection on the basis of lies. Conservative media outlets scrambled for a false equivalence at every turn.

The Republican party is much more corrupt and they stand to gain from the false equivalence between left and right. Looking at politics and calling it the blame game assumes equal responsibility just by looking at the surface.

[Zega]

There's not much I can add to what's been said here but one side is trying to give kids free school lunches, the other side is forcing kids to have their rapist's babies. Maybe to you it's a small distinction but that's probably because you're not living in an area where your life was majorly impacted by conservative legislation.

[Razard86]

On 5/20/2023 at 6:12 AM, Danioover9000 said:

@Razard86  What do you think about a third or fourth party systems instead of two party system in the USA?

I've been in support of this I believe this helps level the playing field in both opportunities and the exploration of ideas. When you have 2 parties diversity of ideas is hard to be explored, now the flip side with more parties continuity of function becomes an issue. Do you know how complicated politics would become in America with more parties? So while I support it, I don't even know if America is ready for a multi-party political system even though I think it is what they really need.

 

On 5/20/2023 at 2:54 PM, Leo Gura said:

1) I said nothing against fighting corporate corruption.

2) No party will ever succeed without corporate interests, because corporations are integral to the functioning of society and the economy. Just blindly hating corporations is extremely foolish and bad politics. Corporations serve so many positive and vital functions in our society.

It's not that Democrats are stupid, it's that you're too stupid to understand how society actually works. Which is why you keep losing elections. You lose elections because your ideology is utterly impractical and unworkable. But you are too ignorant to understand that.

1. I never said that corporate interests aren't important. So notice YOUR SELF-BIAS!!! You claim I made statements I never said!!! So in actuality LEO YOU ARE TOO STUPID because your SELF-BIAS closed your mind and made you CONJURE UP SOMETHING that never happened!!! If I said corporate interests didn't matter....POINT TO IT!!! 

What you haven't noticed is you REACTED to an opinion that you PERCEIVED as different than your own, and instead of QUESTIONING for more clarification you ASSUMED points I never said!!! Notice you didn't even address some of the points I made and you did that because you were IMPATIENT!! Impatience creates self-bias, ASSUMPTION on what the other person knows and doesn't know, IS ALSO SELF-BIAS!!

You are so got damn self-biased and egotistical you don't even know how far up your ass you are.

Why? Because many of the points you make about politics I already agree with BECAUSE I KNOW HOW SOCIETY ACTUALLY WORKS!! YOUR problem is you don't see the ADDITIONAL things I point to, because you deny that you have a limited perspective and ASSUME that you know all the answers!! Maybe just maybe there is value in exploring and questioning here? 

But of course Leo...continue to think you know everything.

What I said stands. Democrats have to cut ties to corporate funding if they want the American public to see them as any different than the Republicans. You see I have the benefit of being around minorities and HEARING THEIR INTEPRETATIONS of events. It doesn't matter what YOU OR I THINK it matters what the PUBLIC thinks. Again...majority of minorities DO NOT SEE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS they also don't have party loyalty. They literally vote based on who can provide more economic opportunities, and sometimes they do REVENGE VOTING. Which means they will vote against their own interests OUT OF SPITE!!!! 

This video right here....= Your biggest bias Leo. This is the biggest fear you have.

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Razard86

[Razard86]

Check this video out. 

 

[Romanov]

On 5/5/2023 at 8:15 PM, Leo Gura said:

It's not a small distinction. Conservatives are a good deal more corrupt. Just look at the current Supreme Court situation and the whole MAGA movement.

You are never going to get some ideal or perfect party. Politics is all about picking the better of imperfect options, so everything hinges on making proper small distinctions. Although I wouldn't even say that the distinction between Dems and Repubs is small right now.

The problem is that everyone believes they’re voting ‘for the lesser evil’. Conservatives would agree with you that it’s about picking the better of the two. 

What then?

[Leo Gura]

5 hours ago, Romanov said:

The problem is that everyone believes they’re voting ‘for the lesser evil’. Conservatives would agree with you that it’s about picking the better of the two. 

What then?

Then you gotta distinguish between which side is more Spirally developed. It's not about who's subjectively better, it's about who is more openminded and tolerant.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Hardkill]

5 hours ago, Romanov said:

The problem is that everyone believes they’re voting ‘for the lesser evil’. Conservatives would agree with you that it’s about picking the better of the two. 

What then?

What Leo said below are key factors to choosing the right side. Also, the more spirally developed the person or party is the wiser and more sophisticated they are.

There is a reason why there are more intelligent and more compassionate people per capita in the higher spiral stages of the spiral than in the lower spiral stages.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Hardkill

[Razard86]

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Then you gotta distinguish between which side is more Spirally developed. It's not about who's subjectively better, it's about who is more openminded and tolerant.

Notice how....this was never up for debate? What in my communication ever raised this as an issue? To say one is the lesser of two evils is not different than saying one is more openminded and tolerant.

I can have two corrupt government officials who want me to support them, clearly I would choose the more openminded and tolerant one. THIS is a simple analysis. You make it seem like realizing that the Republicans and Donald Trump are off their walker is some profound discovery, it's not. What you miss is the fact that the only reason why Americans fell for this shit is because Americans are not interested in politics and many in the minority racial camp see them as the same. 

In terms of corruption Democrats are not that much different than Republicans. Sure you can play the nuance game here and there but they still refuse to support a system that will allow more viable candidates (which allows more ideas) to gain circulation. As such those at the bottom of the food chain won't see difference. 

This is why both Trump and Bernie were able to appeal to voters. 

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/sanders-voters-helped-trump-win-white-house-could-they-do-n1145306

Many angry Sanders voters, voted for Trump in the past. As I stated before....the Democrats have an image problem when it comes to their core voter base. 

While I do get anoyyed by TYT's bias on a lot of issues what I have always found funny is TYT is pro Democrat and even they have no patience with them. 

Hmmm looks like they see the same thing I see. It's sad because the Democrats could easily make the distinction between them and Republicans fairly obvious but they refuse to out of fear. In the future I do believe the Democrats will eventually focus more on campaign finance reform and clean up other conflicts of interest related issues. But until they do...we will constantly have this jumping back and forth between Republicans and Democrats getting elected and little CONSISTENT progress being made. 

[Romanov]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Then you gotta distinguish between which side is more Spirally developed. It's not about who's subjectively better, it's about who is more openminded and tolerant.

 

I think the main deciding factor for me is the side that is least for organized religion with the belief in a personal god. In that respect, I’ve gotta give it to the liberals. The driving force behind America’s independence was liberal in nature ever since the American Revolution and then everything else was just built on top of that. 
 

The Union was basically the democrat party of today and the South was today’s republican party. Even though both sides were pretty religious (unlike now), the more progressive one ended up winning the Civil War and of course Lincoln had to be assassinated because someone couldn’t stand his lionization of tolerance. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Romanov

[Leo Gura]

If you objectively look at the levels of corruption in the Republican party and anti-woke movement you will clearly see it is way worse than among Dems and Progressives.

Just look at the recent developments with the Supreme Court, or the MAGA coup, or all the shady people that flock around Trump like Ruddy Guliani, or the NRA. All these things are patently, shamelessly corrupt at this point.

The right-wing in America has shamelessly debased itself as it clings to waning power.

This is not merely my biased political opinion. It's way deeper than that. And if you cannot see this then you are the biased one and I don't know how to help you.

Edited May 31, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Razard86]

On 5/27/2023 at 8:09 PM, abundance said:

Compare and contrast this to Republicans banning books, threatening Civil War every 5 mins,banning abortions, trying to steal elections, allowing every crazed lunatic to purchase assault weapons, threatening corporations who don't align with their values, holding the economy hostage by allowing the US to default just to pass their agenda (which isn't in favor of the working class), trying to legalize child labor, trying to impose Christian nationalism on everyone, stoking stohastic terrorism by deliberately spreading misinfo to their lunatic base, denying systemic racism, denying climate change, calling Dems pedophiles when they're constantly involved in some scandal that involes sexual misconduct or pedophilia, opposing expanding healthcare, opposing student debt relief, opposing a livable wage, praising foreign dictators, etc etc etc

 

No. Both parties are NOT the same.

 

That's one state there are a whole host of examples I can give you of Democratic majorities literally voting bi-partisan on Conservative Bills that undermine Democratic Party Values. In fact its too many examples it would flood this forum. Also watch the video I posted....it gave some. 

Second I NEVER SAID THEY WERE THE SAME. I called it the LESSER OF TWO EVILS. They are the same in that they are bought by Corporations and do their bidding over their constituents. Clearly the Republican Party is so extreme that even current Republican voters are in shock. But to act like your SMALL example is pervasive is LAUGHABLE. There is OVERWHELMING evidence to the contrary. So much it dwarfs your singular example. Bernie Sanders ran for a reason. 

[Razard86]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you objectively look at the levels of corruption in the Republican party and anti-woke movement you will clearly see it is way worse than among Dems and Progressives.

Just look at the recent developments with the Supreme Court, or the MAGA coup, or all the shady people that flock around Trump like Ruddy Guliani, or the NRA. All these things are patently, shamelessly corrupt at this point.

The right-wing in America has shamelessly debased itself as it clings to waning power.

This is not merely my biased political opinion. It's way deeper than that. And if you cannot see this then you are the biased one and I don't know how to help you.

Sigh....Leo....NOBODY has been making this argument!! You are LITERALLY arguing with yourself!! It is called LESSER of two evils!!! They are both corrupt, the Republicans are only more corrupt because their party platform is actually designed to be that way. In fact the Democrats are worse in a sense because they actually are LESS true to their values than Republicans.

This is why in one sense you can say Dems are worse not in the sense that they do more damage they don't but they are worse hypocrites because they violate their own values more egregiously than Republicans. You keep arguing a standpoint that I'm not arguing. Every time I vote I vote Democrat. Democrats are the only sane party left, but....they are worse because you expect the more mature option to actually be mature!!! I mean we even have Blue Dog Democrats!!! What the fuck is that? They aren't even really Democrats!!!

[Razard86]

On 5/21/2023 at 11:01 AM, Hardkill said:

Exactly.

You know what? Instead of complaining that the Democrats aren’t doing enough or voting for a third party, which doesn’t work in America like it does in other countries that have a multi-party system such as Ireland or Scandinavia, why not create or join a movement on the ground that will help the Democrats gain enough support for more good policies to be passed by Congress?

I believe a grass roots movement will eventually be done and will revolutionize the Democratic Party. Until they have a hard internal structural change (get the old heads out of there) they will keep doing their minimal change. I will say at least on the smaller scale the party tends to be more effective. But the higher up you go in scale the more corrupt they seem to be.

[thenondualtankie]

I'm not American, but I'd say the Democrats and Republicans are both parties that are built by corporations for corporations. The Democrats represent slightly more developed corporations on the Spiral. These are generally the biggest companies (e.g. Big Tech). The Republicans represent smaller companies, who need to act more selfishly in order to survive.

The fact that both parties are just representatives of different sectors of the capitalist class has costed Americans a lot. I think the obvious solution is grass-roots organisation, whatever that means.