Is it possible that psychedelics are Leo's bias?

[BlessedLion]

They may take you to the top of the mountain but you always come back, true you keep a slight taste but I think the dependency they create is more harmful that than that taste of God they give. 

 

Harmful might not be the best word but maybe less efficient. 

 

How many great masters legitimately suggest this as a way to become God? Have you ever seen a great teacher propose this as a long term path? (Leo, McKenna, Carlos Castaneda...) Psychedelics have been around forever so you'd think if they were really that effective and legit you'd have at least one MAJOR name proposing them. 

 

Maybe my interest is different. It seems like what Leo teaches and is pursuing mastery in, is understanding reality, but it's not in being. 

 

My goal is to be God, to dissolve into everything completely sober and of my own Accord and consciousness. By God's Grace and hard work. 

 

Leo makes it seem like this is impossible without psychedelics but many other teachers have just the opposite view. Ralston, Adyashanti, Ram Dass, Ramana Maharshi, Hawkins, these are no joke teachers who attained some of the deepest levels of God Realization possible. And they all address this point, basically saying that psychedelics may show you Christ, but don't you want to BE Christ? You always come back down from a trip. 

 

In my own experience as I go deeper into daily practice, retreats and self inquiry, the Self slowly reveals and unravels. I'm unbelievably less reactive and much more positive loving and free. Live is an adventure and I never feel bored. In fact gratitude is my baseline emotion. Not to say i don't have any struggle, pain, self doubt and self anger still lingering. I'm not perfect. I'm just saying writing off meditation and spiritual practices as useless like he does in quite unfair and i think it's his bias. 

 

It seems like it doesn't work that well for him. Like he's mentioned before some people are wired for certain things and have natural strengths. I believe his strengths and wirings are an incredible ability to analyze, understand, and verbalize and conceptualize reality. But maybe he's not that strong suited in BEING. It seems like this is boring for him. For myself, just sitting and being is heaven. 

 

What are your guys thoughts? Is this Leo's personal bias as a teacher? 

 

[UnbornTao]

I prefer to remain grounded. My stance is that they can be beneficial for relative stuff -- having insights, opening up one's mind, getting at the core of an emotional disposition, transcending patterns of behavior, etc. -- but can't and won't ever produce enlightenment for you, because only you can. Many "spiritual" people who take them are likely fooling themselves about what they experience while on them, confusing changes in their perceptive-field with "enlightenment." What they probably mean by those types of descriptions is a change in state. The gist of the matter is that, no matter how beneficial, dramatic, fascinating, unusual or grandiose an experience is, it can't ever be awakening. Awakening isn't relative.

Edited May 5, 2023 by UnbornTao

[M A J I]

Psychedelics can be very helpful as a (helping hand) to get you back on your own two feet, but the more you use them the more they use you, I notice this especially with synthetic/lab-created substances because of the tenancy to escape facing the deeper truths.

The naturally occurring plants/fungi will slap you in your ass if you abuse them too much. They are brilliant teachers that (Less is more). The longer you remain without it, the more profound the experience the next time around, eventually you will get the message.

Here is an interesting perspective:

You could see it this way, Adam was Immortal until he ate the Apple, then he was bound to physicality and thus mortality, then required food/sex/physical needs to get by and thus aged and decayed and stuck in a cycle of death & rebirth.

You could see psychedelics sometimes as the apple, do you give into the devils apple over and over again or you get the message and apply it.

Leo is still discovering himself, never blindly follow anyone online, even those who appear more awake than others.

[BlessedLion]

Yeah, couldn't agree more. It's going to sound cliche but I feel like there is something more pure about gaining insights and wisdom and consciousness sober. Totally on your own. 

 

I've heard a teacher once say that these substances have their own consciousness and we don't fully understand them or why they show us these things. Sounds a bit paranoid but I've had experiences with plants that felt downright malicious as well as God like and beautiful. 

 

I still plan to use them. I think they can be beautiful and revel things that I'm not seeing as well as re spark love for this work. But see it as more like watching a cool movie or something. Not seriously using it or depending on it for consciousness work. 

 

These days i just say to myself life is the psychedelic and there is no reason God would make it impossible to become conscious of things sober and through hard work. 

 

My meditations these days are pure Bliss. Heaven. I'm 7 years in and have clocked in 5-6K hours. 

 

Leo is a genius though and I doubt he is wrong. He has obviously thought and contemplated extensively on this material, i try to not rule anything out. But dismissing meditation like he does is kinda lame and close minded. 

[BlessedLion]

Maybe I'll do psychedelics like 3,4 times a year 

[Jodistrict]

I have done alot of psychedelics in the past four years, but i believe that a solid meditation and mindfulness practice is the way to go. 

[Grateful Dead]

First of all psychedelics are certainly my bias and I think Leo’s too. But for a good reason and that is because they work for us. If breathwork or yoga for example is working for you then that will be your bias. 

Why do you need major teachers to confirm the psychedelic path? Psychedelics are mostly still illegal and only since a couple of decades are they available worldwide. Many people still don’t have access to them. Like if peter ralston would come out and say he’d done 500 trips, then you would see it as a legit path?

Leo never said other spiritual practices are useless. And I think that spiritual practices are somewhat necessary, like I meditate and do yoga everyday but for me it’s something I do to support my psychedelic exploration because that’s where the real work happens for me. 

Also it sounds to me you have a limited view on understanding. It goes beyond thinking and in my experience a deeper understanding of reality also results in more being.

[OBEler]

It is impossible to reach many deep states of consciousness without psychedelics. 

Why many spiritual teachers dont teach them?

First, many never tried so they just dont know. They dont have access or are not interested because their dogmatic religion forbits it. 

Second, even if they tried they have never tried massive amounts of next gen psychedelics like 5 meo which gives you Instant God realization On lsd you need many tries, it's very weak and also confusing compared to crystal clear 5 meo 

Third, they could take it in secret. the Stigma of psychedelics being a drug or even in spiritual cycles as cheat Code is not good and would turn off many spiritual followed of these teachers so they dont talk about it. 

Forth and most important, the master/Guru will be out of Business because psychedelics are way more powerful and give you deeper knowledge than following any of these Gurus. You just need psychedelics, no Guru brainwashing

Edited May 3, 2023 by OBEler

[M A J I]

@OBEler I disagree. There is much more you can experience that will reveal to you otherwise.

Your first sentence is a flaw in itself.

You Are the Energy source from whence the substance exists or can actually have an effect.

Fundamentally they are nothing put "permission slips".

Self is the Dominating energy, all else is secondary.

Edited May 3, 2023 by M A J I

[BlessedLion]

Thanks for sharing your viewpoints. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I've had amazing revelations from psychs that would've been very difficult through meditation, but not impossible. 

 

How many of you have really spent 14-21 days in complete silent meditation? It does amazing things. I've never had 5 MEO so this i can't speak on. I just feel like they can cause a dependency when i feel it's much more powerful to 100% rely on yourself 

That said i don't discount their legitimacy but it does seem like Leo has said meditation is a waste of time, which is absolute bullshit

[Grateful Dead]

You can rely 100% on yourself and then still do psychedelics imo.

I haven’t done a long meditation retreat but plan to do one this year. I’m sure it can do amazing this and so can psychedelics. 

I think what Leo means is that meditation is not an effective technique for most people to have deep awakenings consistently. This is where psychedelics come in to help you breakthrough to absolute reality.

I don’t feel dependent on psychedelics for my spirituality but I know what you mean, in a way it’s true.

[Jodistrict]

Meditation is effective because it changes the brain over the long term.  It takes time and repeated repetition for the brain to develop new synapses.  Psychedelics gives you an intense experience over a brief period of time which fades the next day.  Say, for example, at that moment you have an intense experience of love, but as soon as the chemical wears off it is gone.  Having a consistent experience of joy and love takes series spiritual work on a daily basis.   Are we being fooled by the feeling of “deep”  which is an intense feeling state, but nothing changes over the long term?

Edited May 3, 2023 by Jodistrict

[Grateful Dead]

I think one trip can change your brain in the long term. It can gives you the necessary neuroplasticity so to say.

Like if you unpack your trauma through psychedelics or have a deep breakthrough this will change you in the long term, at least from my experience.

However the psychedelic experience alone is not enough, you have to integrate it and do lots of sober work to make it last.

[Jodistrict]

14 minutes ago, acidgoofy said:

I think one trip can change your brain in the long term. It can gives you the necessary neuroplasticity so to say.

Like if you unpack your trauma through psychedelics or have a deep breakthrough this will change you in the long term, at least from my experience.

However the psychedelic experience alone is not enough, you have to integrate it and do lots of sober work to make it last.

I see it like this.  Medititation = long term neuronal change (i.e., rewiring).   Psychedelics =  add new memory to memory store. 

I have heard the claim from faciliators that there is a neuroplasticity in effect for a week after a trip which makes it easier to change ingrained patterns and habits.  But the actual change work is being done after the trip. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Jodistrict

[OBEler]

@M A J I Yeah self is the dominating energy, all else is secondary. Great 

But you still need psychedelics to reach these states like you still need money to buy a car. 

It's like you say you could materialize a super car without money. Because you are the dominating energy. Good luck with that thinking 

[Yimpa]

The only psychedelics I’ve taken so far are ketamine and weed. 

Yet, if you ask a scientist, they are likely to say that they are not psychedelics. 

Am I biased towards being a fool?

[FlyingMan]

Leo is a fool for calling ALL of these great masters fools.  Like, seriously, think about it.  These are some of the most exceptional human beings to ever live.  They are brilliant, passionate, dedicated people with full open hearts and have put lifetimes of work into their practices, far far beyond what Leo has ever done.  They have unraveled the self down to its microscopic core, and found there what cannot be spoken of.  Leo does a lot of speaking, but never addresses how what he calls "advanced" is just another rat race, just another seeking for MORE MORE MORE, and a total denial of the actual work required to release the suffering and separation that fabricates this human condition.  He hand waves the entire spiritual journey, simply saying he's "superior".  This is patently ridiculous, and no matter how much you want to believe him (because our egos love a narcissist--we are desperate to think someone else KNOWS what is up because we sure as hell don't), it doesn't change the fact that it is absurd to deny thousands of years of wisdom.  All you really need to do is look at Leo and look at someone like Adyashanti, and ask yourself who you'd rather be.  Leo is contracted, angry, hateful, spiteful, jealous, arrogant, and frankly an asshole.  He talks a lot about Love but displays very little of it, for others or for himself.  He glorifies the conceptual maze in practice--an implicit hypocrisy of the highest magnitude.  If you love Leo, you're just lost in ego, I'm sorry.  Live where you fear to live.  I hope you find the way out.

[RendHeaven]

4 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

i feel it's much more powerful to 100% rely on yourself

Arbitrary duality, presuming psychedelics are "outside" of and foreign to "yourself"

Try psychs and see for yourself. Don't rely on any of our opinions

[Yimpa]

4 hours ago, BlessedLion said:

Leo has said meditation is a waste of time, which is absolute bullshit

, which is God.

[Carl-Richard]

Leo is not outright dismissing meditation. Psychedelics just has different outcomes, and he values those outcomes more. I would also be careful to equate meditation with causing lasting change while psychedelic doesn't. Both meditation and psychedelics need to be couched within a very specific framework of beliefs and goals to actually be conducive to the lasting change you're talking about. My mom meditates for stress relief. My friends take psychedelics for fun. You won't see them progressing on a gradual path towards enlightenment at any significant rate.

Besides, even within the specific framework I'm talking about, you can argue it's not the meditation or the psychedelics that is the most crucial step for finally "getting there". It's to finally let go of all attachments. If you're not progressing towards letting go of your attachments, your baseline state will remain forever stuck in a contracted and cyclical state of unsavory behaviors referred to as "suffering". You can have 1000 very deep awakening experiences, but it will still not stick unless you fully surrender all notions of control, all notions of identity, effectively your entire life.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Carl-Richard