Why You Should Stop Caring About The Suffering Of Others

[Razard86]

I do not care that others suffer. Why? Because I know the truth! The truth is, your actions reveal how you really feel. The truth is what is!! I am God, You are God. God is all powerful and has complete authority. As a result I cannot force you to stop suffering. I can guide you out of it but I cannot force you out of it. Why? Because you have complete authority equal to me. Your authority is equal because we are ONE! Since I am not more powerful than you, I cannot force you against your will to stop suffering! Additionally I shouldn't attempt to force you out of suffering because that would actually increase your suffering because suffering is the belief that a greater force has power over you and is subjugating you so for me to do the same would make me appear evil in your eyes.

So how do you solve this problem? Since you are suffering a belief of a direct force, you use an indirect force to illuminate and wake up the individual. Jokes are indirect. Compliments are indirect. Peaceful, graceful presence is indirect. Patience is indirect. This is how you help awaken someone who is suffering. Another way is to be direct, but not direct the message at anyone in particular. The person may become offended by the message and you let them know it isn't directed at anyone in particular, you are just expressing a viewpoint.

If they argue with you and tell you that you are wrong you thank them for sharing their perspective. Unbeknownst to them you have raised their awareness and it will be harder to keep deluding themselves because you brought into their awareness a new way of looking at things. Indirectness is a long term strategy, while force is always a short-term strategy. Most people like to use force because people like shortcuts. Shortcuts work sometimes, but are never sustainable. Only long term strategies are sustainable and they are housed in being indirect. To be indirect is to use force to hit a target but to hit the target secretly. 

Selflessness is force, but its hidden. People think submission is weakness, but it's strength disguised in appearance as weakness. This makes it stronger because YOU NEVER SEE IT COMING!!! This is one the greatest secret to life!!

[Moksha]

It depends on the state of the aspirant. Some respond well to subtlety, others require being hit over the head by a sledgehammer. It's why gurus vary so much in their methods of teaching.

I agree with Ramana Maharshi on silence being the purest language, unfortunately there are so few people to hear it.

[Rigel]

19 minutes ago, Moksha said:

It depends on the state of the aspirant. Some respond well to subtlety, others require being hit over the head by a sledgehammer. It's why gurus vary so much in their methods of teaching.

I agree with Ramana Maharshi on silence being the purest language, unfortunately there are so few people to hear it.

I love that I don't understand what is meant by silence. It doesn't seem to exist to me. Silence that is. There's always a sound object present in my experience and it has been like that ever since I was born. He probably means the silence from before I was born but I don't have experience of that. Or an analogy of some sort. Anyway that's cool. 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Rigel

[WeCome1]

Ok, this would have been funny, if it weren't really dangerous. I've seen more than my share of this kind of backwards rhetoric - and the very real suffering it perpetuates. So I have to call bullshit.

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

I do not care that others suffer.

* Proceeds with three paragraphs on how to trick people into suffering less. * 

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

The truth is, your actions reveal how you really feel.

...

3 hours ago, Razard86 said:

I am God, You are God. God is all powerful and has complete authority. As a result I cannot force you to stop suffering. I can guide you out of it but I cannot force you out of it. Why? Because you have complete authority equal to me. Your authority is equal because we are ONE! Since I am not more powerful than you, I cannot force you against your will to stop suffering! Additionally I shouldn't attempt to force you out of suffering because that would actually increase your suffering because suffering is the belief that a greater force has power over you and is subjugating you so for me to do the same would make me appear evil in your eyes.

So how do you solve this problem? Since you are suffering a belief of a direct force, you use an indirect force to illuminate and wake up the individual. Jokes are indirect. Compliments are indirect. Peaceful, graceful presence is indirect. Patience is indirect. This is how you help awaken someone who is suffering.

Go ahead. Tell a meta-joke to a person with depression or mental illness. Compliment a crippled veteran with PTSD. Be patient with war refugees. I'm sure cows in a factory farm will appreciate your graceful presence oh-so-fucking-much. People who suffer (and I mean REALLY suffer - and not "somewhat inconvenienced") don't need to "awaken" to some higher level of consciousness or jump up a stage on some Spiral Dynamics - what they really need is a fucking break. Someone who will take responsibility and carry them on his shoulders from the neck-deep shit they've found themselves in. People suffer because they ARE helpless, that's what suffering IS - the despair of the apparent helplessness. Even if the problem is indeed in their head - for them, at that moment, it is equivalent to being in a real prison cell; if it weren't - it wouldn't have been a problem in the first place.

What people would really appreciate is YOU rising up to the challenge: meeting them where they're at, doing something tangible to remove the cause of their pain, so they can catch a break and regroup. And, heck, maybe even a simple act of genuine compassion, if it's not to much to ask of a God-realized person.

4 hours ago, Razard86 said:

Another way is to be direct, but not direct the message at anyone in particular. The person may become offended by the message and you let them know it isn't directed at anyone in particular, you are just expressing a viewpoint.

Man, some people really need to touch some grass, pull their head out of their privileged spiritual ass and maybe have another look at the unfair inescapable brutality that the majority of the world is facing every day. 

Just an opinion.

[Moksha]

2 hours ago, Rigel said:

I love that I don't understand what is meant by silence. It doesn't seem to exist to me. Silence that is. There's always a sound object present in my experience and it has been like that ever since I was born. He probably means the silence from before I was born but I don't have experience of that. Or an analogy of some sort. Anyway that's cool. 

That's precisely why silence is so powerful. It communicates beyond thoughts, which are always endarkening. There is nothing so silent and penetrating as pure light.

[Razard86]

5 hours ago, WeCome1 said:

Ok, this would have been funny, if it weren't really dangerous. I've seen more than my share of this kind of backwards rhetoric - and the very real suffering it perpetuates. So I have to call bullshit.

* Proceeds with three paragraphs on how to trick people into suffering less. * 

...

Go ahead. Tell a meta-joke to a person with depression or mental illness. Compliment a crippled veteran with PTSD. Be patient with war refugees. I'm sure cows in a factory farm will appreciate your graceful presence oh-so-fucking-much. People who suffer (and I mean REALLY suffer - and not "somewhat inconvenienced") don't need to "awaken" to some higher level of consciousness or jump up a stage on some Spiral Dynamics - what they really need is a fucking break. Someone who will take responsibility and carry them on his shoulders from the neck-deep shit they've found themselves in. People suffer because they ARE helpless, that's what suffering IS - the despair of the apparent helplessness. Even if the problem is indeed in their head - for them, at that moment, it is equivalent to being in a real prison cell; if it weren't - it wouldn't have been a problem in the first place.

What people would really appreciate is YOU rising up to the challenge: meeting them where they're at, doing something tangible to remove the cause of their pain, so they can catch a break and regroup. And, heck, maybe even a simple act of genuine compassion, if it's not to much to ask of a God-realized person.

Man, some people really need to touch some grass, pull their head out of their privileged spiritual ass and maybe have another look at the unfair inescapable brutality that the majority of the world is facing every day. 

Just an opinion.

So much delusion in this message, so much I don't have the patience to even deconstruct it. Your response reveals a lack of lived experience and knowledge of reading. You reveal your lack of understanding in pretty much everything you just stated. 

In fact you reveal your lack of understanding of Self-Deception. What you don't understand is EVERYTHING is trickery, and you just demonized it. So much ignorance in your response.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Razard86

[lostingenosmaze]

@WeCome1 Is anyone who's not pretentious willing to make an actual retort to this reply? I'm willing to be open to @Razard86 's perspective but I'm not seeing it yet 

[Razard86]

10 minutes ago, lostingenosmaze said:

@WeCome1 Is anyone who's not pretentious willing to make an actual retort to this reply? I'm willing to be open to @Razard86 's perspective but I'm not seeing it yet 

What parts are you not seeing? I'll see if I can illuminate my communication better.

[WeCome1]

5 hours ago, lostingenosmaze said:

I'm willing to be open to @Razard86 's perspective but I'm not seeing it yet 

If I may. That's the thing right there, you've said it yourself: you are not seeing Razard's perspective. And that's okay, because there isn't one - there's actually two perspectives mixed together. And that's exactly where the real Self-Deception (TM) hides.

By the way, just for the sake of mental exercise - without reading further, in your own words, how would YOU formulate Razard's OP position? Like, in 1-2 sentences, what IS the essence of his communication, in your opinion?

So, see, a man experiences some absolute states of consciousness and realizes that I = You = One = God = Love = Truth, or some such. It's all one big total illusory appearance that sometimes takes a form of a person suffering - but, in actuality, in the absolute sense, nobody has ever suffered, yay! There is a movie about a flood - but the screen is not wet, right? 

However, deconstruct me this. How come that, when I kidnap Razard's little sister and put him on a video call with her, while me and my buddies Bogdan and Dmitry take turns at raping her in all sorts of creative ways - he suddenly DOES care about her suffering, and, instead of indirectly and subtly nudging her towards realizing her true nature and absolute sovereignty with his peaceful presence and clever rhetoric, he finds himself taking practical steps towards finding me, stopping his poor sister's apparent suffering and, perhaps, cutting my d**k off with a chainsaw.

Why does he bother with all that? Is he not God-Realized (TM) enough? Did he read his Bhagavad Gita upside down? Maybe not. Maybe it's because, while the Absolute be Absolutin' itself in itself all through itself, Razard, with his apparent life, has nothing to do with it. In his actual perspective, whether he admits it or not, he is living in a material world and he is a material boy. And his lofty advice, based on the absolute realization, is not in any way applicable in this relative domain. Which is the only domain in which any sort of advice is, in fact, required.

My point is, I guess, this. Any Absolute Truth (TM) is a thing unto itself and only "valuable" for itself - it does not have any "practical" application in the relative domain - if it does, you are missing the whole point. It doesn't imply that a person must act upon it in any particular sort of way. But if you feel the urge to be good, kind and compassionate - don't let your Understanding (TM) stand in the way. Not worth it.

 

 

[Moksha]

2 hours ago, WeCome1 said:

Any Absolute Truth (TM) is a thing unto itself and only "valuable" for itself - it does not have any "practical" application in the relative domain.

Have you considered that living sanely (i.e., realizing what is happening in this moment rather than denying it), provides perspective, creates freedom to respond rather than react, and enhances the quality of the life experience?

[WeCome1]

30 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Have you considered that living sanely (i.e., realizing what is happening in this moment rather than denying it), provides perspective, creates freedom to respond rather than react, and enhances the quality of the life experience?

Ok, my bad, "practical" wasn't exactly what I meant. It's more along the lines of "science can only make claims about what IS - not about what OUGHT". And, in this sense, I certainly agree with you that knowing "how things are" improves one's quality of life. But it doesn't tell us anything about WHAT we should do. And that's only relative knowledge. If we talk about absolute realizations - everything above is even more true: yes - having a glimpse at God changes this "game character" here, and how he responds; and no - having a glimpse of God does not imply this or that course of action. On the contrary - it reveals the total absence of any agent whatsoever. And what is the "game character" to do about that? Love more? Or go full-on Joker? Or proceed as before?.. I dunno.

[Razard86]

4 hours ago, WeCome1 said:

If I may. That's the thing right there, you've said it yourself: you are not seeing Razard's perspective. And that's okay, because there isn't one - there's actually two perspectives mixed together. And that's exactly where the real Self-Deception (TM) hides.

By the way, just for the sake of mental exercise - without reading further, in your own words, how would YOU formulate Razard's OP position? Like, in 1-2 sentences, what IS the essence of his communication, in your opinion?

So, see, a man experiences some absolute states of consciousness and realizes that I = You = One = God = Love = Truth, or some such. It's all one big total illusory appearance that sometimes takes a form of a person suffering - but, in actuality, in the absolute sense, nobody has ever suffered, yay! There is a movie about a flood - but the screen is not wet, right? 

However, deconstruct me this. How come that, when I kidnap Razard's little sister and put him on a video call with her, while me and my buddies Bogdan and Dmitry take turns at raping her in all sorts of creative ways - he suddenly DOES care about her suffering, and, instead of indirectly and subtly nudging her towards realizing her true nature and absolute sovereignty with his peaceful presence and clever rhetoric, he finds himself taking practical steps towards finding me, stopping his poor sister's apparent suffering and, perhaps, cutting my d**k off with a chainsaw.

Why does he bother with all that? Is he not God-Realized (TM) enough? Did he read his Bhagavad Gita upside down? Maybe not. Maybe it's because, while the Absolute be Absolutin' itself in itself all through itself, Razard, with his apparent life, has nothing to do with it. In his actual perspective, whether he admits it or not, he is living in a material world and he is a material boy. And his lofty advice, based on the absolute realization, is not in any way applicable in this relative domain. Which is the only domain in which any sort of advice is, in fact, required.

My point is, I guess, this. Any Absolute Truth (TM) is a thing unto itself and only "valuable" for itself - it does not have any "practical" application in the relative domain - if it does, you are missing the whole point. It doesn't imply that a person must act upon it in any particular sort of way. But if you feel the urge to be good, kind and compassionate - don't let your Understanding (TM) stand in the way. Not worth it.

 

 

1. Projection I would never put a chainsaw to your dick.

2. If you listened to my perspective I literally said I would act in ways to help the suffering person get what they want indirectly. This means I will trick the person into getting what they want.

3. So what I would do is use trickery to help my sister escape her suffering.

4. You didn't realize this because your ego clouded you from my point of view and thus you could not understand my perspective even though you claimed you did which is self-deception. 

5. You deluded yourself that you were open minded but you weren't at all. 

6. This is too easy.

[WeCome1]

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

1. Projection I would never put a chainsaw to your dick.

My bad.

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

3. So what I would do is use trickery to help my sister escape her suffering.

Walk me through this one.

1 hour ago, Razard86 said:

2. If you listened to my perspective I literally said I would act in ways to help the suffering person get what they want indirectly. This means I will trick the person into getting what they want.

Why, tho? You literally said you didn't care.

Edited May 3, 2023 by WeCome1

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, WeCome1 said:

It's more along the lines of "science can only make claims about what IS - not about what OUGHT". 

Something worth pondering that I came across yesterday:

To eschew unreality and seek the reality is scientific.

Absolute truth is science fully realized. The IS becomes the OUGHT.

[gettoefl]

to suffer means to not permit

suffering is refusing to let existence be the way it wants to be

there are no negatives in existence, negatives are how minds label stuff

everything in existence is good

and besides it is silly for you or anyone to try to thwart existence's wishes

even more so when you realize that you are existence

on the other hand let others be, they are enjoying life according to their level of consciousness

[Razard86]

1 hour ago, WeCome1 said:

My bad.

Walk me through this one.

Why, tho? You literally said you didn't care.

1. I can tell you are new to Spirituality. Spirituality has its own language, it engages in the translogical which means you can care and not care at the same time. You are clearly a novice so you are getting confused so I will simplify it for you.

YOUR ACTIONS REVEAL HOW YOU REALLY FEEL. This is an absolute!! This is why feelings are truth!!! Everyone walks around in a state of desire and fear. Whichever one wins out determines the outcome. So somebody can desire to do something, but if they are TOO AFRAID they will not engage in that activity. Most times when you bring this up the person will deny it because they are full of shame and guilt and have not worked through their issues. 

Next you said that Spirituality and contemplating the Absolute cannot help you in the relative. This is delusion. The Absolute and the relative are ONE and I could easily show many examples of how the Absolute applies to the relative but I won't. I will use the most obvious one! Spirituality is deeply tied to Psychology. It teaches you to take charge of how you frame situations, it teaches you how to heal from trauma, it teaches you how to connect metaphysically with everything around you and realize your true nature, it empowers you to share love and it teaches you to have boundaries.

So notice everything I said literally helps with the relative because your perspective LITERALLY RUNS YOUR LIFE. Everything you do and don't do is completely based on how you interpret a situation. But notice in your arrogance you denied the Absolute's connection to the relative. Do you know how much delusion you have to have to do that? Do you know how much ignorance that is? The relative is MADE of the ABSOLUTE. The relative always changes, while the Absolute never changes. So explain to me how something that is the totality of everything, and is your TRUE identity has no connection to survival?

 Also if you listened to me I said I would trick the person out of their suffering. So clearly if I am trying to trick them out of their suffering I care about their suffering. So why did I say I don't care about their suffering. There are too types of caring, there is a passionate attached caring, and an indifferent unattached caring. For example if a man is held hostage and has a bomb strapped to him and you try to save him but when you look at the timer it says 5 seconds and there are other hostages around him and you....what do you do? You grab him and throw him as far as you can because if you don't him, you, and the other hostages will die. You can only do that if you have an indifferent unattached caring. You care for his sake, but you are not attached to either outcome. This allows you to see things clearly.

Additionally clearly the reason I advocated trickery to help someone escape suffering is a result of the fact that some people just want to suffer. If you have any extension dealing with people who are full of trauma they are not going to release that trauma without a fight. That trauma has become a part of their identity. But they did come to you because they want help but they will fight you tooth and nail to prevent you from helping them. Paradoxical right? That's because life is paradoxical. If you use practicality you will forever be deluded. Life has never been practical and never will be. Practicality is duality, paradox is not practical. TRUE practicality is paradox which is the same as saying counter-intuitive.

So what you do is you trick the person into getting what they want which is being able to let go of their trauma and move on. But you have to trick them into getting it. Using trickery which is deception to help someone get what they want is the only proper way to deceive someone. Deception is a part of life. The pitcher in baseball deceives the batter to miss, and the comedian deceives you to deliver the punchline. Deception is the unknown, which means to say the future is deceptive and can never be predicted with perfect accuracy. 

So wouldn't you like an unpredictable unknown future to turn out in your favor? This is what it means to trick someone into getting what they want.