Transgenderism and transrace

[Danioover9000]

@Juan

1 hour ago, Juan said:

All and average are two very different things. The videos are examples of some liberals vs conservatives, but my focus with Crowder was that the way he put’s himself out there, the way he respond, his views, etc., is similar if not the same of how the average conservative respond, if you haven’t watched the videos I shared then ok fine, that’s on you, if not then go outside and socialize with them so you can get deeper in their views, I haven’t said they are bad nor good people, just go out there and study them.

You are now putting words in my mouth bro haha wtf, I never spoke of the people in my area, READ PLEASE carefully and slowly…

 

Haha what? Where you even came from bro? No, I started with Roy, then you came responding. 

Read again please:

 

   How is ALL and AVERAGE different here? Aren't you using AVERAGE as a generalization for most conservatives? That's the thing with you citing from Jubilee and The Cut about Muslim conservatives vs Muslim Liberals, Liberal teens vs conservative parents, and feminists vs anti feminists, I don't see how these three subjects, in there own contexts, have anything to do with Steven Crowder, can you elaborate what being a Muslim conservative/liberal, being a teenage liberal vs old conservative, and feminist/anti feminist have to do with being Steven Crowder? Again, correlation/=/causation, and extrapolating from other contexts into one context/=/causation. If you consider Steven Crowder to be the average conservative, why then don't we have the average conservatives as wife beaters, white Supremacists and more right wing alt extremists then? Steven Crowder seems to me, my observation, is more stage red/blue and less orange, cognitively biased and lower in moral development, personality typing is extroverted-close minded-conscientious-disagreeableness-higher in neuroticism and sociopathy, a dysfunctional relationship with his wife, other life experiences and lines of development that to me isn't a great representative for average conservatives. If Steven Crowder is conservative representative to you, then that means to me you have a distorted bias that makes you think he's representative of conservatives, or because @Leo Gura said so so Steven Crowder is conservative representative?

   I agree that you do the best you can to study in your own area, but that begs the question, especially if you live in an area with more extremists which exhibit unhealthy conservative views, or even liberal views, then the sample and selective bias and survey here would be wrong/distorted no? That's my question to you.

   I'll ask the questions again: We should take claims from a conservative with consideration, but not liberals? So, when progressives/socialists and liberals make claims that if children state they're transgender that we should automatically transition them, without further determination that they're suffering from gender dysphoria or are peer pressured by the trans community? Same with transrace?

[Juan]

54 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

We should take claims from a conservative with consideration, but not liberals?

We should take claims from anyone.

54 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

   So, when progressives/socialists and liberals make claims that if children state they're transgender that we should automatically transition them, without further determination that they're suffering from gender dysphoria or are peer pressured by the trans community? Same with transrace?

Children shouldn’t be allowed to have such decisions till they get into adulthood, is too early. There are people who started taking meds since childhood and then regret it on adulthood, example of people:

Take into consideration I don’t mean accepting them immediately, for me it means to simply have the space of people to be heard, and if it is beneficial for humanity, sure we could take steps forward. 

Edited May 8, 2023 by Juan

[Danioover9000]

@Juan

33 minutes ago, Juan said:

We should take claims from anyone.

Children shouldn’t be allowed to have such decisions till they get into adulthood, is too early. There are people who started taking meds since childhood and then regret it on adulthood, example of people:

Take into consideration I don’t mean accepting them immediately, for me it means to simply have the space of people to be heard, and if it is beneficial for humanity, sure we could take steps forward. 

   Oh, okay then, so you've actually agreed with my position from the start?

[Israfil]

35 minutes ago, Juan said:

Children shouldn’t be allowed to have such decisions till they get into adulthood, is too early. There are people who started taking meds since childhood and then regret it on adulthood,

Children can't consent, can't marry, can't drink,  can't do a fucking tattoo, can't own a house, can't make any of the life-altering changes that we consider important and somehow people think it's okay to give them drugs that literally alter their entire development process and might make them sterile.

[Juan]

9 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

Oh, okay then, so you've actually agreed with my position from the start?

I don’t even know what is your position begin with! Lol, cuz you kept asking me questions and my focus was on replying to Roy! but if that is also your position, sure ok.

[Juan]

2 minutes ago, RebornConsciousness said:

What an indefensible position, and a stupid debate.

Why is it a stupid debate for you? 

[JJfromSwitzerland]

On 07/05/2023 at 0:23 PM, Danioover9000 said:

   Can we talk about Michael Jackson here? I feel he's nearly the perfect example of transrace, and maybe transgenderism, but nobody is pushing back on if this is a goad example or not. So, is he, or is there a better one?

Didn't he have a skin disease?

[JJfromSwitzerland]

17 hours ago, ZoweeZoe said:

As someone who identifies with the trangender label and nonbinary label, I feel I can make a contribution to this discussion (hopefully but no promises). 

When asking the question such as - Should  or shouldn't transgender people transition? The answer to that question is completely arbitrary. I believe both @Roy and @Danioover9000 agree that "transgenderism" and "transracialism" are completely pointless - and I would also completely agree. 

But what is also pointless? I would say it is pointless to be concerned with transgenderism and transracialism (again, borrowing terms from the discussion; not my own) to any extent. Just as a transgender person suffers because they cannot become what they idealize - so too does the "phobic" suffer by trying to force a transgender person to their own idealization. None of this is good or bad. It just is. 

In reality, we are all our own slaves. 

Ok this is actually a quite insightful point.

[Danioover9000]

@JJfromSwitzerland

53 minutes ago, JJfromSwitzerland said:

Didn't he have a skin disease?

   I don't think so, he had a stage accident where his hair caught fire, and suffered third degree burn of his scalp. Had to take medications to alleviate the pain, and around this time he was having some kind of dysphoria, and decided to spend a lot of money to undergo surgery to change his skin color.

   Definitely other factors involved in him changing his race, mainly psychological. 

[ZoweeZoe]

15 hours ago, Danioover9000 said:

@ZoweeZoe

 

   I think here both @Roy and I may disagree more with the concern is pointless argument, because this is such an easy way to write off actually concerns to half concerns of events and people effected by certain ideologies, and concern of whether behaviors and actions that were taken were wrong in context. If we encounter someone who has transitioned, but in retrospect is now regretting their decision, should we not take that into account for future cases going forward? Should we take more precautionary steps, instead of rushing a confused teenager/child, suffering from gender dysphoria/other dysphoria, into transitioning more out of ideology and less out of that person's genuine well-being?

First off, I don't see examples of trans children being rushed into transitioning. In fact, it's the opposite. But suppose this were to happen? Let's pretend like everyone who transitions is miserable, and that children are being indoctrinated. Are you going to accept that or will you suffer over it? 

That is the choice we always have. I don't care if you stop me or don't stop me from transitioning or anyone else for that matter. But do we need to suffer over our inevitable suffering? The more you fight the world the more it will come to dominate you.

[Whitney Edwards]

There is no problem with being transgender. 

Not long ago homosexuality was considered a huge taboo. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@ZoweeZoe

13 minutes ago, ZoweeZoe said:

First off, I don't see examples of trans children being rushed into transitioning. In fact, it's the opposite. But suppose this were to happen? Let's pretend like everyone who transitions is miserable, and that children are being indoctrinated. Are you going to accept that or will you suffer over it? 

That is the choice we always have. I don't care if you stop me or don't stop me from transitioning or anyone else for that matter. But do we need to suffer over our inevitable suffering? The more you fight the world the more it will come to dominate you.

   Trans children? Don't you mean children suffering from gender dysphoria?

   Do you not see transgenderism as an ideology? Do you not see that the medical industry benefits and profit from confused dysphoria children? They start taking puberty blockers, or undergoing physical transitions, removal of the penis and balls, adding boobs, HTR treatment that alters the natural hormonal and endocrine system in the biological male body, and biological female body, such that it can sometimes have knock on effects that may be negative and sometimes irreversible? That's a cash cow for the pharmaceutical company because some percentage of the population suffering like this, is likely to need to seek a therapist, maybe a psychiatrist, and buy pills to relieve whatever depression or mental stress caused from prior treatments have.

   I don't care as long as your body your decision is from age of consent, and that you're adult and are responsible,  here I'll accept it's your choice and hope it's right for you. Below age of consent, especially the age range of children 7-14 years old is when it's tricky and we need to be more careful. I'll never accept and willingly suffer disagreements if you think ages 2 to 7 years child can go through the full treatment, too early, and they need more life experience and actually go through developmental stages, and develop in SD stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing and traits, ego development, states of consciousness, life experiences and other lines of development.

[Whitney Edwards]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@ZoweeZoe

   Trans children? Don't you mean children suffering from gender dysphoria?

   Do you not see transgenderism as an ideology? Do you not see that the medical industry benefits and profit from confused dysphoria children? They start taking puberty blockers, or undergoing physical transitions, removal of the penis and balls, adding boobs, HTR treatment that alters the natural hormonal and endocrine system in the biological male body, and biological female body, such that it can sometimes have knock on effects that may be negative and sometimes irreversible? That's a cash cow for the pharmaceutical company because some percentage of the population suffering like this, is likely to need to seek a therapist, maybe a psychiatrist, and buy pills to relieve whatever depression or mental stress caused from prior treatments have.

   I don't care as long as your body your decision is from age of consent, and that you're adult and are responsible,  here I'll accept it's your choice and hope it's right for you. Below age of consent, especially the age range of children 7-14 years old is when it's tricky and we need to be more careful. I'll never accept and willingly suffer disagreements if you think ages 2 to 7 years child can go through the full treatment, too early, and they need more life experience and actually go through developmental stages, and develop in SD stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing and traits, ego development, states of consciousness, life experiences and other lines of development.

You operate from a premise where you're already projecting that those children aren't happy with their decisions or somehow they are looking forward to a dark future. Why do you judge so harshly? 

Maybe those kids know what they want and they want exactly that. 2 years is too early. But I assume someone who is 9 years old can still decide what they want and shouldn't be persuaded otherwise. Even if you were the parent, you still wouldn't be able to decide what your children wanted. Your authority as a parent only extends to the limit of protecting your children from harmful influences of social media, porn and adult content. Children have their rights legally. 

[ZoweeZoe]

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@ZoweeZoe

   Trans children? Don't you mean children suffering from gender dysphoria?

   Do you not see transgenderism as an ideology?

What is an ideology? Transgenderism is and isn't an ideology. 

In some sense, calling transgenderism an ideology becomes your ideology.

So what are you going to do about it? Are you going to make your own ideology to oppose it? 

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@ZoweeZoe

   

   They start taking puberty blockers, or undergoing physical transitions, removal of the penis and balls, adding boobs, HTR treatment that alters the natural hormonal and endocrine system in the biological male body, and biological female body, such that it can sometimes have knock on effects that may be negative and sometimes irreversible? 

 

Children are not undergoing physical transitions. Find me these children who are forcibly "transed".

"Effects that may be negative and sometimes irreversible?"

Look at what you are saying. Where is the truth in this? I am simply asking. Is everything not in a stage of change, interdependence, yet still? Find me what is negative in this life. Are you going to stand against the negative? 

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@ZoweeZoe

    That's a cash cow for the pharmaceutical company because some percentage of the population suffering like this, is likely to need to seek a therapist, maybe a psychiatrist, and buy pills to relieve whatever depression or mental stress caused from prior treatments have.

 

So why not try to stop them? I implore you to try. 

1 hour ago, Danioover9000 said:

@ZoweeZoe

 

   Below age of consent, especially the age range of children 7-14 years old is when it's tricky and we need to be more careful. I'll never accept and willingly suffer disagreements if you think ages 2 to 7 years child can go through the full treatment, too early, and they need more life experience and actually go through developmental stages, and develop in SD stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality typing and traits, ego development, states of consciousness, life experiences and other lines of development.

Here you are arguing against something I never said. 

Edit:

Here: 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by ZoweeZoe

[Israfil]

9 hours ago, Enlightement said:

Maybe those kids know what they want and they want exactly that. 2 years is too early. But I assume someone who is 9 years old can still decide what they want and shouldn't be persuaded otherwise. Even if you were the parent, you still wouldn't be able to decide what your children wanted. Your authority as a parent only extends to the limit of protecting your children from harmful influences of social media, porn and adult content. Children have their rights legally. 

Kids can't drive, they can't marry, can't consent to sex, can't sign contracts, why would we allow them to take medicine that may cause infertility and that permanently alter theirs bodies?

[Whitney Edwards]

1 hour ago, Israfil said:

Kids can't drive, they can't marry, can't consent to sex, can't sign contracts, why would we allow them to take medicine that may cause infertility and that permanently alter theirs bodies?

All those activities are in corelation with another person. Yet changing gender has nothing to do with harming someone else. They can't marry because another person is involved. They can't consent to sex because they could get exploited yet they can actually have sex. 

Does anyone actually stop a child from having sex? I don't know. 

Last time I heard 13 year olds were sucking dick and having sex in their closets. 

Everything happens behind closed doors with or without consent. 

I'm not sure if you look at Tik Tok. 

And then there's teens faking IDs to get into adult clubs and getting drunk. 

Hasn't been this way for ages now? 

[Danioover9000]

@ZoweeZoe

11 hours ago, ZoweeZoe said:

What is an ideology? Transgenderism is and isn't an ideology. 

In some sense, calling transgenderism an ideology becomes your ideology.

So what are you going to do about it? Are you going to make your own ideology to oppose it? 

Children are not undergoing physical transitions. Find me these children who are forcibly "transed".

"Effects that may be negative and sometimes irreversible?"

Look at what you are saying. Where is the truth in this? I am simply asking. Is everything not in a stage of change, interdependence, yet still? Find me what is negative in this life. Are you going to stand against the negative? 

So why not try to stop them? I implore you to try. 

Here you are arguing against something I never said. 

Edit:

Here: 

 

   From my perspective, transrace and transgenderism is an ideology, just like all human concepts and human ways of life, from political, to religious, to group ideology and conformity around cultural beliefs and societal values, they all are ideologies fundamentally. Therefore, I treat them as such, that they are foundationally ideologies to start. Like all ideologies, based on SD stages of development, cognitive and moral development, personality type and traits, states of being, ego development, life experiences and other lines of development in life and societal domains, all ideologies are also developmental, meaning that they start off as thought forms, then servitors, then Tulpae, then egregors, and finally becoming god forms, that millions to billions of souls here on earth worship as dogma and ideology. When an idea finally becomes an egregor is where the problem starts, because an egregor is a psychic being fed with attention, time, energy and emotions of that group, overtime each member's ego creates attachments to that idea, which gives it more realness. When it becomes real, then followers and the preachers proselytize and proliferate this egregor, and similar to memetics the idea memes and infects outsiders into being convinced, persuaded into converting as a follower. Finally, at some point this egregor will have amassed enough psychic influence that it uses it's followers and the preachers as proxies for it's SURVIVAL against other egregors and god forms that walk the astral realms, infecting each human with it's ideas. 

   Talk about these ideologies here in the forum, as unbiased as I can be despite my assumptions, and try to talk from a systemic view as a start.

   When I said that it's irreversible, I'm talking about when you remove the balls and penis of the child aged 1-7 and 7-14 years old, up to teenagers aged 14-18 or 19 depending on age of consent. Unless you know of how to reverse that surgery, of putting back the testicles and penis of the prepubescent child to post pubescent teenage male body? Same scenario with female bodied prepubescent children to post pubescent adolescents. The reason why I say age of consent is that on average that's when most adolescents can conceptualize and logically make sense of their desires close to age of consent. To me, my perspective of your view, I'm sorry, but it's insane to think you have a position that ALL CHILDREN KNOW WHAT THEY WANT. They haven't developed enough in terms of value systems, cognition, morality, personality, psychology, ego, life experiences and other lines of development, even conceptual understanding of the consequences and implications of their desires. They're mostly blank slates that ideologically driven parents, households, and social environments that have right-wing ideologies, to left wing ideologies can indoctrinate into them

   That's where I have issues with Transgenderism and transrace, when these egregors start affecting millions of minds, trying to compete with other ideologies and ideas in the ethers, trying to become gods themselves, trying to infect and convert others and assimilate them into the egregor's influence. When it becomes a meme on the internet, on public discourse, and isn't treated with care and consideration, without critical thinking, without consciousness, that's when it's problematic. 

[Danioover9000]

@Enlightement

41 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

All those activities are in corelation with another person. Yet changing gender has nothing to do with harming someone else. They can't marry because another person is involved. They can't consent to sex because they could get exploited yet they can actually have sex. 

Does anyone actually stop a child from having sex? I don't know. 

Last time I heard 13 year olds were sucking dick and having sex in their closets. 

Everything happens behind closed doors with or without consent. 

I'm not sure if you look at Tik Tok. 

And then there's teens faking IDs to get into adult clubs and getting drunk. 

Hasn't been this way for ages now? 

   Maybe historically, but recently it has spiked and gotten worse and out of hand, thanks to the internet.

 

[ZoweeZoe]

15 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@ZoweeZoe

   

   When I said that it's irreversible, I'm talking about when you remove the balls and penis of the child aged 1-7 and 7-14 years old, up to teenagers aged 14-18 or 19 depending on age of consent.

Again, this isn't happening. Only in rare cases would minors receive hormone replacement therapy or sexual reassignment surgery. And the fact that you think this surgery is a "removal" of the penis is pretty laughable, and demonstrates a level of ignorance when it comes to treatments for trans individuals. 

Also, what's so ironic about this whole discussion, is that the real "forced to be transed" kids are people born intersex and are given surgery to forcibly match them with our ideological understanding of gender. What about intersex individuals who are forcibly given surgery? Are you going to fight for them? My bet would be no, because I don't think you actually care about these children. 

Maybe your argument would be sound if your actual premises were accurate, but you are building this on very shaky ground. I would agree with you that we should fight against "transgenderism" (which isn't a thing btw) if children were being "indoctrinated" to be transgender. To me, it represents a complete lack of sensitivity and understanding of trans people. I'm not sure what right-wing rabbit holes you frequent, but I think it's also wise to listen to, ya know, actual trans people before calling them an ideology. Trans people, as long as I have known, often are the ones having to oppose the orthodoxy of binary gender and binary sex via their own will and identity. It's a painful process of coming to terms with yourself, but we have to add more suffering by opposing our will against them too. Lovely isn't it? I wouldn't call it that. 

Furthermore, isn't it unwise to assume that things such as the ego identity were created by god as an accident? God gave us the ego because we need the ego to develop into spirituality. If we did not have the ego, there would be no ego to drop, and therefore no development of the self. 

27 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@ZoweeZoe

  To me, my perspective of your view, I'm sorry, but it's insane to think you have a position that ALL CHILDREN KNOW WHAT THEY WANT. They haven't developed enough in terms of value systems, cognition, morality, personality, psychology, ego, life experiences and other lines of development, even conceptual understanding of the consequences and implications of their desires. They're mostly blank slates that ideologically driven parents, households, and social environments that have right-wing ideologies, to left wing ideologies can indoctrinate into them

 

I find it a bit unfair that you keep making a strawman out of me. Please cite something I've said that would lead you to believe that I am making the claims you are arguing against. Maybe you made an honest mistake, but this feels like lazy to me. I don't support the notion that all children know what they want. Are you even having a discussion with me or are you arguing with yourself?

I think this conversation is leading me to become ungrounded so I am going to stop replying for now. I at least appreciate the opportunity to engage and to attempt at a "helpful" conversation.

Best,

Seren

[Israfil]

2 hours ago, Enlightement said:

All those activities are in corelation with another person. Yet changing gender has nothing to do with harming someone else. They can't marry because another person is involved. They can't consent to sex because they could get exploited yet they can actually have sex. 

Does anyone actually stop a child from having sex? I don't know. 

Last time I heard 13 year olds were sucking dick and having sex in their closets. 

Everything happens behind closed doors with or without consent. 

I'm not sure if you look at Tik Tok. 

And then there's teens faking IDs to get into adult clubs and getting drunk. 

Hasn't been this way for ages now? 

You just argued that a series of behaviors that will permanently affect the healthy development of teens should be justification for another behavior that will permanently affect the healthy development of teens.

13 year shouldn't be sucking dick because they are not mentally mature to handle sex. They are prohibited from drinking because they are prone to addiction and abuse.

I'm not saying to prohibit a 13-year-old from saying that they want to be called a certain name or pronoun, or dressing the way they like. I am saying to prohibit 13-year-old from using drugs that will alter the entirety of their development, might cause infertility, and always cause side effects. You are simply not mature enough at 13 to take such decisions.