Transgenderism and transrace

[Israfil]

 

[Israfil]

9 minutes ago, RebornConsciousness said:

What I can't get is mainly this; why can't those kids just wear the stereotypical clothes of the opposite sex, do the stereotypical things the opposite sex does, etc. etc.  without having to immidiatelly wanting to inject hormone blockers, then getting hormones pumped into their bodies, wanting surgeries etc.? Why can't they wait until they're 18 or 21? Can't they just crossdress as the opposite gender during their childhood and teens, and just wait until adulthood, without going suicidal and depressed?

I'm for this. I can call them whatever they want, and use the pronouns they prefer. I'm just not for chemically castrating someone that doesn't have the maturity to do a fucking tattoo just because they're saying they want to.

[DrugsBunny]

On 5/10/2023 at 0:33 PM, Israfil said:

I'm for this. I can call them whatever they want, and use the pronouns they prefer. I'm just not for chemically castrating someone that doesn't have the maturity to do a fucking tattoo just because they're saying they want to.

You are lost. Another hapless victim led astray by modern anti-trans fervor. 

Gender affirming care, a scientifically substantiated and highly cautious medical process, is not so embarrassingly reckless that it simply affords any kid with sex reassignment surgery merely because "they say they want to"... ?? There is extensive psychological screening and laborious safety precautions that go into assuring a beneficial decision can be made. 

Here's an idea, one I'm sure you're too ideologically stubborn to consider:

• Why not actually research the regret rates for sex reassignment surgery?

[DrugsBunny]

On 5/4/2023 at 5:35 PM, lostingenosmaze said:

@Danioover9000 Bruh, wasn't that your thread? That would be pretty manipulative of you if it is, I checked that thread before it was hidden and @DrugsBunny was right, you mentioned the Nashville shooting before he did.

Yes, @Danioover9000 obviously cited the shooting first, otherwise there would be no reason for me to present the refutation. He has denied this twice even though it was visibly verifiable.

This is simply a case of untreated mental illness and I'm surprised moderation is so careless that they allow an unstable psychoneurosis victim to fester in chronic delusions via their unrestricted use of this forum. It's not healthy for him or the community.

On 5/5/2023 at 7:10 AM, Roy said:

I'm noticing a trend that Conservative minded people seem to be overall happier, care-free, and able to enjoy life more over Liberal minded people.

That's interesting.

@Roy Studies show conservatives are happier and studies show left-leaning people are more intelligent. Ignorance is bliss, nothing new here. I do find it funny that you chose to defer to this vacuous speculation in lieu of addressing my response to your absurd accusation that I am disrespecting victims of Nazism. 

I'll repeat myself, there's a reason why we distinguish the original Nazis from modern day "neo-nazis" which is the term I used. Are you willing to sheepishly deny that ideological tenets of original Nazism have survived to this day? Is your position that anyone who merely refers to these ideological successors is a "sucked in idiot" as you put it? ??

Nobody is disrespecting original victims of Nazis by acknowledging that modern day neo-nazis exist. Such drivel. 

[Israfil]

8 hours ago, DrugsBunny said:

You are lost. Another hapless victim led astray by modern anti-trans fervor. 

Gender affirming care, a scientifically substantiated and highly cautious medical process, is not so embarrassingly reckless that it simply affords any kid with sex reassignment surgery merely because "they say they want to"... ?? There is extensive psychological screening and laborious safety precautions that go into assuring a beneficial decision can be made. 

Here's an idea, one I'm sure you're too ideologically stubborn to consider:

• Why not actually research the regret rates for sex reassignment surgery?

I'm talking about hormone therapy. If you give testosterone to a 13-year-old for 5 years, they'll have a heart attack before 40. Puberty blockers affect bone density, brain development and fertility.

Besides, you should dig deeper into your research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

The way this study defines "regret" excludes many people that underwent surgery and did not achieve what they wanted, he even states it in a piece of the article:

"In the present review, nearly half of the patients experienced major regret (based on Pfäfflin classification), meaning that they underwent or desire de-transition surgery, that will never pass through the same process again, and/or experience increase of gender dysphoria from the new gender. One study found that 10 of 14 patients with regret underwent de-transition surgeries (8 mastectomies, 2 vaginectomies, 2 phalloplasties, 2 testicular implants removal, and 1 breast augmentation) for reasons of social regret, true regret or feeling non-binary.23 On the other hand, based on the Kuiper and Cohen Kettenis’ classification, half of the patients in this review had clear regret and uncertain regret. This means that they freely expressed their regret toward the procedure, but some had role reversal to the former gender and others did not. Interestingly, Pfäfflin concluded that from a clinical standpoint, transgender patients suffered from many forms of minor regrets after GAS, all of which have a temporary course.20 This is an important consideration meaning that the actual true regret rate will always remain uncertain, as temporarity and types of regret can bring a huge challenge for assessment."

I am not against transition whatsoever. I'm just stating that kids don't have the discernment to choose to transition. They do not understand the consequences and the current guidelines for gender dysphoria treatment lean heavily on promoting the most invasive treatment available i.e: puberty blockers, HRT, and Gender Affirming Surgery. My only take is that this treatment is actually harmful and should only be undertaken after heavy therapeutical follow-up, which is not the norm, many people go to the therapist, get an assessment of gender dysphoria in two or three sessions, and proceed to surgery or HRT.

Is it that absurd to defend that children don't have the maturity to take this life-changing decision?

[Leo Gura]

I have never seen anyone describe how all these trans studies are done. How do they actually measure regret rates? No progressive has ever explained it or questioned it. To just trust their methodology is highly suspect because measuring that accurately is very hard.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Israfil]

9 minutes ago, RebornConsciousness said:

Exactly. Also, the 1% gender reversal & regret statistic was relevant only exactly at the time the survey was made, which I couldn't find the year nor exact date for. Watching how carelessly and flippantly people treat this issue, I think the regret statistic is going to be significantly higher the next time another such survey is done

I linked the research there. The 1% statistic came from a very sketchy definition. But I trust the Bunny didn't argue out of mere confirmation bias and actually scrolled down for 2 seconds and clicked on the link below the internet article that had the study that substantiated it.  

[DrugsBunny]

4 hours ago, Israfil said:

Besides, you should dig deeper into your research: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

You forgot to read the actual CONCLUSION section of this study. Bruh this is so common, conservatives be citing quotes from studies and conveniently leaving out that the CONCLUSION states precisely what they didn't want to hear.

Quote

CONCLUSIONS:

Based on this review, there is an extremely low prevalence of regret in transgender patients after GAS. We believe this study corroborates the improvements made in regard to selection criteria for GAS. However, there is high subjectivity in the assessment of regret and lack of standardized questionnaires, which highlight the importance of developing validated questionnaires in this population.

Yes, there is some subjectivity regarding assessement of regret, but even if the regret rate were higher, it would still be relatively low compared to the regret rate of LITERALLY ANY OTHER BODY MODIFYING SURGERY... 

Let's go over these false assumptions about hormone blockers. Unbiased research will always affirm the pro-trans narrative, despite how uncomfortable this might make you.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7073269/

Quote

CONCLUSIONS:

This is the first study in which associations between access to pubertal suppression and suicidality are examined. There is a significant inverse association between treatment with pubertal suppression during adolescence and lifetime suicidal ideation among transgender adults who ever wanted this treatment. These results align with past literature, suggesting that pubertal suppression for transgender adolescents who want this treatment is associated with favorable mental health outcomes.

So right off the bat we know incontestably that puberty blockers are associated with favorable mental health outcomes, which is the whole point of using them, regardless of any unsubstantiated side effects, which even if true, these detriments would be weighed against the positive outcomes associated with puberty blockers and overall this approach still leads to favorable outcomes.

You've clearly exaggerated the extent to which side effects are associated with puberty blockers, but let's just say the side effects are considerable. Cancer treatment certainly has more egregious side effects than puberty blockers, but you wouldn't deny someone treatment for this reason. This situation is similar except you don't lend as much concern to gender dysphoria because your unfamiliarity makes you unable to gauge the severity of the mental discomfort the affliction can cause. Obviously the decision between an afflicted kid, their family and their healthcare provider would take these factors into account before signing off on sex transitioning. 

It's unreal that I even have to explain this honestly.

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

I have never seen anyone describe how all these trans studies are done. How do they actually measure regret rates? No progressive has ever explained it or questioned it. To just trust their methodology is highly suspect because measuring that accurately is very hard.

Lol this is one of my favorite conservative dismissal tactics, just dismiss the conclusions of any unfavorable study because they're insatiably incredulous of the assessment's methodology. As if it's that complicated to ask people if the surgery has made them more comfortable or not. 

Some people, mostly adult males transitioning to female, simply don't have the ideal facial or body structure to pull off a passable transition (which is why earlier transitioning is obviously nececssary), so their "regret" would only be based on the incongurity between their physical likeness and their preference which is, uhh, oh yeah -- what they already suffer from..

4 hours ago, RebornConsciousness said:

Exactly. Also, the 1% gender reversal & regret statistic was relevant only exactly at the time the survey was made, which I couldn't find the year nor exact date for. Watching how carelessly and flippantly people treat this issue, I think the regret statistic is going to be significantly higher the next time another such survey is done

My guy, the surveys are from 2021... People here are so deeply invested in preserving their preconceived beliefs, it's insane... What kind of counterarguement is that?!
__________________________________________________________________

All the anti-trans nonsense has been thoroughly debunked and eviscerated to oblivion in the assessments made above, but notice how nobody will budge even an inch despite having their arguments torn limb from limb. If these arguments had a physical body they would be licking their festering wounds and praying for the sweet release of death after such an unyielding defeat, but somehow they just won't die...

[Leo Gura]

@DrugsBunny Before you get so cocky, perhaps consider that something like 50% of all social science studies have been found to be pure bullshit. What passes for science these days is quite thin.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Leo Gura

[DrugsBunny]

@Leo Gura Is this a joke? Am I supposed to derive humor from the unacknowledged futility in citing a statistic on false studies which itself sounds made-up on the spot? This is why I'm arrogant, because my claims are substantiated and the opposition is.. stuff like this:

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

consider that something like 50% of all social science studies have been found to be pure bullshit.

 

[Leo Gura]

@DrugsBunny As made up as what you're citing. So doesn't help your case.

If you deny my study why should I admit yours?

Edited May 13, 2023 by Leo Gura

[Israfil]

1 hour ago, DrugsBunny said:

You forgot to read the actual CONCLUSION section of this study. Bruh this is so common, conservatives be citing quotes from studies and conveniently leaving out that the CONCLUSION states precisely what they didn't want to hear.

Quote

I read the entire thing. The conclusion was written by the author. He can write whatever the fuck he wants. I don't think the data points to 1% regret, simply by the way he defined regret.

1 hour ago, DrugsBunny said:

So right off the bat we know incontestably that puberty blockers are associated with favorable mental health outcomes, which is the whole point of using them, regardless of any unsubstantiated side effects, which even if true, these detriments would be weighed against the positive outcomes associated with puberty blockers and overall this approach still leads to favorable outcomes.

You've clearly exaggerated the extent to which side effects are associated with puberty blockers, but let's just say the side effects are considerable. Cancer treatment certainly has more egregious side effects than puberty blockers, but you wouldn't deny someone treatment for this reason. This situation is similar except you don't lend as much concern to gender dysphoria because your unfamiliarity makes you unable to gauge the severity of the mental discomfort the affliction can cause. Obviously the decision between an afflicted kid, their family and their healthcare provider would take these factors into account before signing off on sex transitioning. 

It's unreal that I even have to explain this honestly.

Correlation does not imply causation.  The study doesn't compare people that didn't transition or only socially transitioned. You cannot infer from it that it was the puberty blockers.

You clearly don't know how science works. Instead of blindly trusting your local "scientist" read the data and make your own inferences, instead of blindly accepting his stance on any given subject. His definition of regret is questionable at best and ideological at worst. 

But doing that interpretation work involves being intellectually honest and due diligence, two things you, unfortunately, continuously prove yourself to be on the short side.

 

[DrugsBunny]

11 hours ago, Israfil said:

Correlation does not imply causation.  The study doesn't compare people that didn't transition or only socially transitioned. You cannot infer from it that it was the puberty blockers.

You mean to tell me a study that observes how puberty blockers affect mental health only focuses on people who used puberty blockers?
Yeah, no shit... We're discussing puberty blockers ??

Lmfao, you have freed me. I have been disillusioned from the misjudgment that you'd actually pose a halfway worthy response. Literal child's play...

11 hours ago, Israfil said:

The conclusion was written by the author. He can write whatever the fuck he wants. I don't think the data points to 1% regret, simply by the way he defined regret.

This guy is so neurotically invested in preserving his anti-trans delusions that he's managed to convince himself that the final determination of a peer-reviewed study somehow intentionally strays from the logical conclusions of the actual assessments conducted.

There is no winning with such a person, a blind ideologue who has sold his soul for trivial recompense, forever dammed to mindlessly play devil's advocate for pitiful dogma. A true argument for solipsism, as surely no actual consciousness resides in such an obviously undiscerning drone.

 

 

[integral]

@DrugsBunny Why are you behaving this way? 

[DrugsBunny]

@integral I am being mercilessly bombarded with intentional senselessness.

Read the actual shit Leo said to me and tell me this is an intelligent good-faith actor.. Wasn't even worth responding to but it does set the tone for my temperament.

Read the onslaught of asinine drivel I actually bothered responding to. Guy literally brought up puberty blockers framing them as a negative, so I cited a contradictory study. Then he forgets that he's the one who brought up puberty blockers and pompously insists that the undeniable correlation between favorable mental health outcomes and usage of puberty blockers doesn't account for people who.. didn't take puberty blockers (?? yeah no shit.. are you kidding me?) all while proudly declaring that I don't know how science works...

Words cannot begin to describe the relentless affront towards rational sensibilities that this level of ineptitude serves as. I'm not exaggerating for the sake of performative cruelty, but this unyielding lack of wits is literally evocative of the existentially threatening possibility that other beings have no actual consciousness of their own. I'm not simply lashing out to be mean, I'm using the precise language that accurately reflects the unsettling philosophical conundrum that is evoked by such a comedically absurd commitment to stupidity.

[Israfil]

53 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

Read the onslaught of asinine drivel I actually bothered responding to. Guy literally brought up puberty blockers framing them as a negative, so I cited a contradictory study. Then he forgets that he's the one who brought up puberty blockers and pompously insists that the undeniable correlation between favorable mental health outcomes and usage of puberty blockers doesn't account for people who.. didn't take puberty blockers (?? yeah no shit.. are you kidding me?) all while proudly declaring that I don't know how science works...

 

A variety of factors come into play when you talk about mental health. Suicide ideation could end by any other type of element. How many of those people remained in therapy? How many were taking antidepressants? How many got out of an environment that was causing that ideation?

I say that you don't understand science because you don't. If you don't control other variables, you cannot infer that the puberty blockers were the specific cause of solving that ideation. If you don't study other people who didn't take them and compare the results, you don't know shit about puberty blockers. The only thing you know is that suicide ideation went down.

 

 

[DrugsBunny]

34 minutes ago, Israfil said:

If you don't study other people who didn't take them and compare the results, you don't know shit about puberty blockers. The only thing you know is that suicide ideation went down.

So embarrassing.

Dude literally said he read the "entire thing".. Such insecurity in your position that you felt the need to lie about such a thing. I wouldn't even necessarily expect you to read all of it. Just get a general grasp on the methodology used then comprehend how the conclusion logically follows, but no, your insecurities forced you to forge an obvious lie.

Do not respond to this thread anymore, just see yourself out. 

[Israfil]

22 minutes ago, DrugsBunny said:

So embarrassing.

Dude literally said he read the "entire thing".. Such insecurity in your position that you felt the need to lie about such a thing. I wouldn't even necessarily expect you to read all of it. Just get a general grasp on the methodology used then comprehend how the conclusion logically follows, but no, your insecurities forced you to forge an obvious lie.

Do not respond to this thread anymore, just see yourself out. 

I was referring to the article I posted, not yours.

[Israfil]

I just read the article you linked. Pay attention to the Strengths and Weaknesses of the study, by the author:

Strengths of this study include its large sample size and representation of a broad geographic area of the United States. It is the first study in which associations between pubertal suppression for transgender youth and suicidality are examined. Limitations include the study’s cross-sectional design, which does not allow for determination of causation. Longitudinal clinical trials are needed to better understand the efficacy of pubertal suppression. Because the 2015 USTS data do not contain the relevant variables, we were unable to examine associations between access to pubertal suppression and degree of body dysphoria in this study. Notably, past studies have revealed that body image difficulties persist through pubertal suppression and remit only after administration of gender-affirming hormone therapy with estrogen or testosterone.11 It is also limited by its nonprobability sample design. Future researchers should work toward the collection of population-based survey data that include variables related to gender-affirming medical interventions. Of note, because pubertal suppression for transgender youth is a relatively recent intervention, some participants might not have known that these interventions existed and thus would not have reported ever wanting them. Had these individuals known about pubertal suppression, it is possible that they might have desired it. Because we do not have data on whether individuals who did not desire pubertal suppression would have wanted it had they known about it, we restricted our analysis to those who reported ever desiring pubertal suppression. Reverse causation cannot be ruled out: it is plausible that those without suicidal ideation had better mental health when seeking care and thus were more likely to be considered eligible for pubertal suppression. The Endocrine Society guidelines for pubertal suppression eligibility recommend that other mental health concerns be “reasonably well controlled.”7 Because this study includes only adults who identify as transgender, it does not include outcomes for people who may have initiated pubertal suppression and subsequently no longer identify as transgender. Notably, however, a recent study from the Netherlands of 812 adolescents with gender dysphoria revealed that only 1.9% of adolescents who initiated pubertal suppression discontinued this treatment without proceeding to gender-affirming hormone therapy with estrogen or testosterone.25

I'm not denying that gender-affirming treatment is beneficial to trans people. What I'm pointing out is that I don't think that a 13-year-old person is mature enough to make this decision. Gender is an important part of life, but so is cardiovascular health, not having osteoporosis and brain development. The kid doesn't have completely developed long-term reasoning because the part of the brain that does that is developed precisely with puberty. So they might say they're happy because they are more aligned with the gender they identify with, but don't understand the long-term effects of this treatment. 

[Roy]

On 5/11/2023 at 11:38 PM, DrugsBunny said:

I do find it funny that you chose to defer

Don't mistake my silence and ignoring as lack of having a response or argument. I just don't feel the need to give you the time of day, nor that you deserve basic respect in our exchanges because at this point I think you're a clown and from your very first message you were mean.

I'm too busy of a person and have too many important things to accomplish every day to expend energy on this kind of thing.