Transgenderism and transrace

[ZoweeZoe]

15 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@ZoweeZoe

   

   When I said that it's irreversible, I'm talking about when you remove the balls and penis of the child aged 1-7 and 7-14 years old, up to teenagers aged 14-18 or 19 depending on age of consent.

Again, this isn't happening. Only in rare cases would minors receive hormone replacement therapy or sexual reassignment surgery. And the fact that you think this surgery is a "removal" of the penis is pretty laughable, and demonstrates a level of ignorance when it comes to treatments for trans individuals. 

Also, what's so ironic about this whole discussion, is that the real "forced to be transed" kids are people born intersex and are given surgery to forcibly match them with our ideological understanding of gender. What about intersex individuals who are forcibly given surgery? Are you going to fight for them? My bet would be no, because I don't think you actually care about these children. 

Maybe your argument would be sound if your actual premises were accurate, but you are building this on very shaky ground. I would agree with you that we should fight against "transgenderism" (which isn't a thing btw) if children were being "indoctrinated" to be transgender. To me, it represents a complete lack of sensitivity and understanding of trans people. I'm not sure what right-wing rabbit holes you frequent, but I think it's also wise to listen to, ya know, actual trans people before calling them an ideology. Trans people, as long as I have known, often are the ones having to oppose the orthodoxy of binary gender and binary sex via their own will and identity. It's a painful process of coming to terms with yourself, but we have to add more suffering by opposing our will against them too. Lovely isn't it? I wouldn't call it that. 

Furthermore, isn't it unwise to assume that things such as the ego identity were created by god as an accident? God gave us the ego because we need the ego to develop into spirituality. If we did not have the ego, there would be no ego to drop, and therefore no development of the self. 

27 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@ZoweeZoe

  To me, my perspective of your view, I'm sorry, but it's insane to think you have a position that ALL CHILDREN KNOW WHAT THEY WANT. They haven't developed enough in terms of value systems, cognition, morality, personality, psychology, ego, life experiences and other lines of development, even conceptual understanding of the consequences and implications of their desires. They're mostly blank slates that ideologically driven parents, households, and social environments that have right-wing ideologies, to left wing ideologies can indoctrinate into them

 

I find it a bit unfair that you keep making a strawman out of me. Please cite something I've said that would lead you to believe that I am making the claims you are arguing against. Maybe you made an honest mistake, but this feels like lazy to me. I don't support the notion that all children know what they want. Are you even having a discussion with me or are you arguing with yourself?

I think this conversation is leading me to become ungrounded so I am going to stop replying for now. I at least appreciate the opportunity to engage and to attempt at a "helpful" conversation.

Best,

Seren

[Israfil]

2 hours ago, Enlightement said:

All those activities are in corelation with another person. Yet changing gender has nothing to do with harming someone else. They can't marry because another person is involved. They can't consent to sex because they could get exploited yet they can actually have sex. 

Does anyone actually stop a child from having sex? I don't know. 

Last time I heard 13 year olds were sucking dick and having sex in their closets. 

Everything happens behind closed doors with or without consent. 

I'm not sure if you look at Tik Tok. 

And then there's teens faking IDs to get into adult clubs and getting drunk. 

Hasn't been this way for ages now? 

You just argued that a series of behaviors that will permanently affect the healthy development of teens should be justification for another behavior that will permanently affect the healthy development of teens.

13 year shouldn't be sucking dick because they are not mentally mature to handle sex. They are prohibited from drinking because they are prone to addiction and abuse.

I'm not saying to prohibit a 13-year-old from saying that they want to be called a certain name or pronoun, or dressing the way they like. I am saying to prohibit 13-year-old from using drugs that will alter the entirety of their development, might cause infertility, and always cause side effects. You are simply not mature enough at 13 to take such decisions. 

[Buck Edwards]

29 minutes ago, RebornConsciousness said:

It does. By harming an individual, you are harming the collective as well. You never know what that individual could have achieved, what they could have contributed to society, or how many other people they could've help or saved in some ways. Both the butterfly effect and the residual effects apply here.

Even if that wasn't the case, that's still a mad logic. Any form of self harm is not a good thing. Kids and teens shouldn't have the authority to make significant life altering decisions, because they're stupid, almost all of them. And these doctors and surgeons shouldn't have the authority to prescribe anything either, not until the kids reach proper adulthood. Parents should also stay out of the way untill then.

This is mad logic. If someone decides to do something on their own, it's up to them to bear consequences. Children can do so many things that are wrong. Nobody died because they are trans. Unnecessary fear mongering. 

More children have died taking selfies. 

4 minutes ago, Israfil said:

You just argued that a series of behaviors that will permanently affect the healthy development of teens should be justification for another behavior that will permanently affect the healthy development of teens.

How do you know this for sure? Why is being trans unhealthy? Or is it unhealthy because society has conditioned us to believe so? 

4 minutes ago, Israfil said:

13 year shouldn't be sucking dick because they are not mentally mature to handle sex.

Again why do you think they can't handle sex? Remember there was a time when 12 year Olds were shipped to marry someone older during Roman times. I don't condone that because age difference can cause too much polarity yet it's not written anywhere young teens are irresponsible with sex per se. If you're talking about teenage pregnancy, I guess most teens are very aware of it and don't want any problems. Most teens handle themselves quite well. What could possibly go wrong with sex as a teen apart from teen pregnancy? Don't forget how puberty hits when we're still maturing. Nature doesn't wait for us to be fully emotionally developed adults. 

4 minutes ago, Israfil said:

They are prohibited from drinking because they are prone to addiction and abuse.

And that applies to adults too. 

4 minutes ago, Israfil said:

I'm not saying to prohibit a 13-year-old from saying that they want to be called a certain name or pronoun, or dressing the way they like. I am saying to prohibit 13-year-old from using drugs that will alter the entirety of their development, might cause infertility, and always cause side effects. You are simply not mature enough at 13 to take such decisions. 

These things can even happen when you are an adult. You're indirectly trying to say that any gender change procedure is harmful to the body. But this is up to a person, if a gender change makes them happy, they could care less about other things. Everything comes with a price anyway. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@RebornConsciousness

42 minutes ago, RebornConsciousness said:

It does. By harming an individual, you are harming the collective as well. You never know what that individual could have achieved, what they could have contributed to society, or how many other people they could've help or saved in some ways. Both the butterfly effect and the residual effects apply here.

Even if that wasn't the case, that's still a mad logic. Any form of self harm is not a good thing. Kids and teens shouldn't have the authority to make significant life altering decisions, because they're stupid, almost all of them. And these doctors and surgeons shouldn't have the authority to prescribe anything either, not until the kids reach proper adulthood. Parents should also stay out of the way untill then.

   I agree, in this issue I'd be conservative minded no matter how the online progressives/socialists call me a Nazi for being concerned.

[Danioover9000]

@Enlightement

6 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

This is mad logic. If someone decides to do something on their own, it's up to them to bear consequences. Children can do so many things that are wrong. Nobody died because they are trans. Unnecessary fear mongering. 

More children have died taking selfies. 

How do you know this for sure? Why is being trans unhealthy? Or is it unhealthy because society has conditioned us to believe so? 

Again why do you think they can't handle sex? Remember there was a time when 12 year Olds were shipped to marry someone older during Roman times. I don't condone that because age difference can cause too much polarity yet it's not written anywhere young teens are irresponsible with sex per se. If you're talking about teenage pregnancy, I guess most teens are very aware of it and don't want any problems. Most teens handle themselves quite well. What could possibly go wrong with sex as a teen apart from teen pregnancy? Don't forget how puberty hits when we're still maturing. Nature doesn't wait for us to be fully emotionally developed adults. 

And that applies to adults too. 

These things can even happen when you are an adult. You're indirectly trying to say that any gender change procedure is harmful to the body. But this is up to a person, if a gender change makes them happy, they could care less about other things. Everything comes with a price anyway. 

 

   Are you capable of compassion, understanding and empathy to those who regretted transitioning?

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@Enlightement

   Are you capable of compassion, understanding and empathy to those who regretted transitioning?

Having compassion doesn't change my position. 

There are people who regret motherhood. 

 

[Danioover9000]

@Enlightement

Just now, Enlightement said:

Having compassion doesn't change my position. 

There are people who regret motherhood. 

 

   So, you'll stay in your position of supporting transgenderism and transrace, even if there's some casualties along the way? I'm asking if you care for those that regretted too.

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, Danioover9000 said:

@Enlightement

   So, you'll stay in your position of supporting transgenderism and transrace, even if there's some casualties along the way? I'm asking if you care for those that regretted too.

Why should that impact my position? Isn't regret a separate issue? I don't know how demonizing transitions in teens actually translates as compassion for those who regret it. Not only is that a moot point, it rather comes across as a justification for stopping transitioning in teens than sympathizing  with the ones who regret it, using their negative experience to confabulate an argument that never was about it to begin with, some weird form of strawmanning, yes there are issues like with anything else out there, but, without having an open conversation about it, I don't see how we're going to fix it, your take means we have to completely shut it down, reeks of paranoia, it's not a default that every teen regrets, we need more research before we begin to abandon the idea altogether, till then we're really in the grey zeone and we should be careful to not jump the gun with half ass information and preconceived assumptions. 

[Israfil]

14 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

How do you know this for sure? Why is being trans unhealthy? Or is it unhealthy because society has conditioned us to believe so? 

I'm talking specifically about surgery and hormonal treatment here.

14 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

Again why do you think they can't handle sex? Remember there was a time when 12 year Olds were shipped to marry someone older during Roman times. I don't condone that because age difference can cause too much polarity yet it's not written anywhere young teens are irresponsible with sex per se. If you're talking about teenage pregnancy, I guess most teens are very aware of it and don't want any problems. Most teens handle themselves quite well. What could possibly go wrong with sex as a teen apart from teen pregnancy? Don't forget how puberty hits when we're still maturing. Nature doesn't wait for us to be fully emotionally developed adults. 

If you think the only consequence of having sex is a disease or having children, perhaps you too should try to investigate this further. Sex is simultaneously the most destructive and creative act in the world. Sexual misconduct is problematic way beyond having to take penicillin.

18 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

And that applies to adults too. 

 This further support the notion that children shouldn't make decisions about their drug use until they fully understand the consequences and have properly developed.

19 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

These things can even happen when you are an adult. You're indirectly trying to say that any gender change procedure is harmful to the body. But this is up to a person, if a gender change makes them happy, they could care less about other things. Everything comes with a price anyway. 

The whole point of a minor is that up to a point in your life, you haven't got the maturity required to make decisions with long-lasting effects. Of course, the age is arbitrary, but the kid that gets enthralled by a 7-hour stream of Fortnite doesn't have the maturity to decide whether or not he should permanently alter their genitals and hormonal profile. 

[Buck Edwards]

Just now, RebornConsciousness said:

This type of surgery permormed on a wrong person, can potentially be a fate worse than death. But hey, at least we're not transphobic then, am I right?

Whats surgery on a wrong person? 

Can you go a bit into detail? 

This doesn't sound like a good argument to me. 

Your arguments should be solid, using transphobia (by the way I don't recall calling you that) is a weak argument, some sort of confirmation bias you're looking for. 

[Buck Edwards]

2 minutes ago, Israfil said:

I'm talking specifically about surgery and hormonal treatment here.

Cite studies where they show surgery was harmful. 

2 minutes ago, Israfil said:

If you think the only consequence of having sex is a disease or having children, perhaps you too should try to investigate this further. Sex is simultaneously the most destructive and creative act in the world. Sexual misconduct is problematic way beyond having to take penicillin.

This went above my head. Sexual misconduct happens all the time. Age no bar. 

2 minutes ago, Israfil said:

 This further support the notion that children shouldn't make decisions about their drug use until they fully understand the consequences and have properly developed.

The whole point of a minor is that up to a point in your life, you haven't got the maturity required to make decisions with long-lasting effects. Of course, the age is arbitrary, but the kid that gets enthralled by a 7-hour stream of Fortnite doesn't have the maturity to decide whether or not he should permanently alter their genitals and hormonal profile. 

Maturity is debatable. I understand that with alcohol and the risk of abuse. But I don't get why you would need maturity if you are a 100% certain that you are not okay with the gender you're born with. 

Do children need maturity to decide what food is not good for them. These decisions are organic and it depends a lot on how you feel inside and not something that progressively changes with age bar a few exceptions where the client is not totally certain about gender change surgery. 

You know what, when it comes to gender change, even adults go through a ton of confusion since it creates a lot of mental conflict, this has no relevancy to age, more to do with rigid social norms than age.. 

[Buck Edwards]

3 minutes ago, RebornConsciousness said:

A surgery on a person who doesn't actually suffer from gender dysphoria. But they think they do. It's actually not some widespread issue, this is something only a small percentage of population feels/is supposed to feel. It's important to keep that in mind, before comming to any hasty conclusions in our personal lives.

This is not revelant. This is akin to saying coffee isn't that good because some people had an allergy to it. 

Obviously every rule or method/trend comes with exceptions. 

[ZoweeZoe]

3 minutes ago, Danioover9000 said:

@Enlightement

   So, you'll stay in your position of supporting transgenderism and transrace, even if there's some casualties along the way? I'm asking if you care for those that regretted too.

I CANT stand when people make these sorts of argument (e.g., "the ends don't justify the means"). The means ARE the ends! Do you realize how many more casualties there would be by trying to outlaw transgender people from existence? It's far greater than the 1% of people who express feelings of regret after receiving trans-medical surgeries.  (AP news article). Of this 1%, a portion actually stop regretting their transition, and another smaller portion actually go on to detransition. And it's important to understand how this data is collected in the first place. People who have regrets over surgeries (these include things such as FFS - facial feminizing surgery; or shaving of the adams apple) can have "regrets" purely for cosmetic reasons. It's important to be nuanced when looking at these statistics. 

In comparison, the most harm transgender people cause to society is that they are perceived as "weird", "icky", and god forbid - "DIFFERENT". The anxiety and panic surrounding trans people IS COMPLETELY FRABRICATED. And you are getting played and used by ideologues who would take away your rights to contraceptive care. It's like the misogynists' found a way to get the misandrists to work for them. Isn't that funny? 

[Israfil]

8 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

Cite studies where they show surgery was harmful. 

Firstly, you haven't substantiated any of your claims. Secondly, surgery, especially aesthetic ones always carries risks. 

9 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

This went above my head. Sexual misconduct happens all the time. Age no bar. 

Rape and murder happen all the time, let's not protect people or do anything about it too. Your arguments have no consideration for the possible negative consequences for people. It is very different for an adult to choose to do something risky after he understands all its associated risks. A kid isn't even educated enough to understand what are the effects of puberty blockers, 

13 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

Maturity is debatable. I understand that with alcohol and the risk of abuse. But I don't get why you would need maturity if you are a 100% certain that you are not okay with the gender you're born with. 

Do children need maturity to decide what food is not good for them. These decisions are organic and it depends a lot on how you feel inside and not something that progressively changes with age bar a few exceptions where the client is not totally certain about gender change surgery. 

You know what, when it comes to gender change, even adults go through a ton of confusion since it creates a lot of mental conflict, this has no relevancy to age, more to do with rigid social norms than age.. 

Puberty is a pretty important component of maturity. One of the most significant changes during puberty is the growth and development of the prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the brain responsible for decision-making, impulse control, planning, and working memory. This growth spurt in the prefrontal cortex is responsible for the development of complex thinking, abstract reasoning, and increased self-awareness. All of which are needed to make complex permanent decisions regarding your body.

That's why kids can't do tattoos, have sex or use drugs. It became obvious somewhere in the last couple million of years that our little monkey cubs don't have the proper development to choose stuff effectively, so we help them until they can fend for themselves, and then they can do whatever they want with themselves. 

[Danioover9000]

@ZoweeZoe

8 minutes ago, ZoweeZoe said:

I CANT stand when people make these sorts of argument (e.g., "the ends don't justify the means"). The means ARE the ends! Do you realize how many more casualties there would be by trying to outlaw transgender people from existence? It's far greater than the 1% of people who express feelings of regret after receiving trans-medical surgeries.  (AP news article). Of this 1%, a portion actually stop regretting their transition, and another smaller portion actually go on to detransition. And it's important to understand how this data is collected in the first place. People who have regrets over surgeries (these include things such as FFS - facial feminizing surgery; or shaving of the adams apple) can have "regrets" purely for cosmetic reasons. It's important to be nuanced when looking at these statistics. 

In comparison, the most harm transgender people cause to society is that they are perceived as "weird", "icky", and god forbid - "DIFFERENT". The anxiety and panic surrounding trans people IS COMPLETELY FRABRICATED. And you are getting played and used by ideologues who would take away your rights to contraceptive care. It's like the misogynists' found a way to get the misandrists to work for them. Isn't that funny? 

   What made you assume I was arguing for the general outlawing of Transgenderism and Transrace, and not for more regulations and careful determination specifically with physical surgery transition and HRT treatment and puberty blockers for minors aged 1-7 and aged 7-14? Why can't I argue for more therapy and psychological evaluation for those suffering gender and race dysphoria first before proceeding to puberty blockers, HRT treatment and surgery and removal of sexual organs? Why can't we first wait for them to become of legal age of consent that they then can pursue further gender changing treatment?

    So, are you claiming that people of different worldviews, different value systems, different cognitive and moral development, different personality types and traits, different lives, when they see trans people or transrace people, that when they feel 'weird', 'icky', 'different', that their feelings are not valid, that if they felt concern for their own safety it's not valid to feel? That they're natural feeling and thinking of discrimination and differentiating between themselves and trans people and transrace people isn't valid, before any action or words are spoken?

   How is the anxiety and panic around trans people and trans people completely fabricated? What if you saw a child or teen that hasn't heard or encountered a trans person express some panic and anxiety without being exposed to right wing talking points? Or you took a tribesman/tribe woman, and they saw a trans person/trance race person, never told or exposed to right wing talk, would you still claim they're completely fabricated too? What if you took a pit bull, it saw trans people and it barked and tried attacking these people, would you still claim that it's completely fabricated that the pit bull is feeling anxious and panicked? What if you asked a UFO, that when it sees trans people or trans race people or Michael Jackson, what they felt, and they expressed they felt panicked and a bit anxious, without getting told by alt right narratives?

   How am I getting played, and how is contraceptive care related to my position of being more conservative with treatments? How and why are you comparing this issue of transgenderism and transrace and gender dysphoria with Misogynists manipulating misandrists? What's funny about this comparison?

[Danioover9000]

@Enlightement

53 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

Why should that impact my position? Isn't regret a separate issue? I don't know how demonizing transitions in teens actually translates as compassion for those who regret it. Not only is that a moot point, it rather comes across as a justification for stopping transitioning in teens than sympathizing  with the ones who regret it, using their negative experience to confabulate an argument that never was about it to begin with, some weird form of strawmanning, yes there are issues like with anything else out there, but, without having an open conversation about it, I don't see how we're going to fix it, your take means we have to completely shut it down, reeks of paranoia, it's not a default that every teen regrets, we need more research before we begin to abandon the idea altogether, till then we're really in the grey zeone and we should be careful to not jump the gun with half ass information and preconceived assumptions. 

   Why wouldn't compassion and empathy towards those who regretted transitioning inform at least part of your position? Shouldn't their cautionary tales make you at least pause and carefully consider some of your more liberal ideas with regards to transitioning surgery, HRT treatment, puperty blockers in children aged 1-7, and aged 7-14? why wouldn't that empathy inform you that maybe we should increase therapy and psychological assessments for those suffering from gender dysphoria first, before making decisions that may negatively impact the natural development of that child's body? Why should we quicken treatment in younger children, versus waiting for those that suffer gender dysphoria to reach the age of consent first? Why would you make regret distinct from the transgenderism and transrace issue?

   Why are you assuming my argument is demonizing transgendered people, and not assume I'm arguing for more cautionary actions?

   We're having an open conversation about this issue here, no? Also I agree we need more research, of children aged 2-14 who are inborn gender dysphoria versus gender dysphoria or being trans due to group ideology, and stats of male/female sufferers of gender dysphoria. But I also think, in addition to more research we need more therapy and psychological evaluation of those suffering from gender/race dysphoria.

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, Israfil said:

I'm talking specifically about surgery and hormonal treatment here.

If you think the only consequence of having sex is a disease or having children, perhaps you too should try to investigate this further. Sex is simultaneously the most destructive and creative act in the world. Sexual misconduct is problematic way beyond having to take penicillin.

 This further support the notion that children shouldn't make decisions about their drug use until they fully understand the consequences and have properly developed.

The whole point of a minor is that up to a point in your life, you haven't got the maturity required to make decisions with long-lasting effects. Of course, the age is arbitrary, but the kid that gets enthralled by a 7-hour stream of Fortnite doesn't have the maturity to decide whether or not he should permanently alter their genitals and hormonal profile. 

Ok. 

 

[Buck Edwards]

1 hour ago, Israfil said:

Firstly, you haven't substantiated any of your claims. Secondly, surgery, especially aesthetic ones always carries risks. 

The risks are going to be the same whether you are a child or an adult. 

Quote

Rape and murder happen all the time, let's not protect people or do anything about it too. Your arguments have no consideration for the possible negative consequences for people. It is very different for an adult to choose to do something risky after he understands all its associated risks. A kid isn't even educated enough to understand what are the effects of puberty blockers, 

Education won't make a difference. Of course we need proper assessments to rule out people who have gender dysphoria due to image issues or mental health problems. Any hormone chemical treatment comes with cons. It's better to focus on how to minimize it's impact rather than vouching for it's elimination. 

Quote

Puberty is a pretty important component of maturity. One of the most significant changes during puberty is the growth and development of the prefrontal cortex, which is the part of the brain responsible for decision-making, impulse control, planning, and working memory. This growth spurt in the prefrontal cortex is responsible for the development of complex thinking, abstract reasoning, and increased self-awareness. All of which are needed to make complex permanent decisions regarding your body.

Agreed. Yet it happens when teens are still teens. 

Your argument is proper for someone who is 4 years old. I don't think this holds enough water for someone who is 14. I don't see why a 14 year old can't decide what they want. 

Quote

That's why kids can't do tattoos, have sex or use drugs. It became obvious somewhere in the last couple million of years that our little monkey cubs don't have the proper development to choose stuff effectively, so we help them until they can fend for themselves, and then they can do whatever they want with themselves. 

We do this to protect kids. Yet you aren't sure what exactly you're protecting kids from by not allowing hormone treatment. You can separate invalid cases. That's not an argument. But there are kids who have obvious gender conflicts and they really want treatment for that. Why should their freedoms be sacrificed? 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Enlightement

[Israfil]

39 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

The risks are going to be the same whether you are a child or an adult. 

This is objectively false.

39 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

Education won't make a difference. Of course we need proper assessments to rule out people who have gender dysphoria due to image issues or mental health problems. Any hormone chemical treatment comes with cons. It's better to focus on how to minimize it's impact rather than vouching for it's elimination. 

Education is a critical component for taking conscious choices. One of the main reasons children can't choose certain things is a lack of profound knowledge about such things. Hormonal therapy is certainly something that a 13-year-old won't be educated about to the depth they need to make a decision about whether or not he should undertake such treatment.

39 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

Agreed. Yet it happens when teens are still teens. 

Your argument is proper for someone who is 4 years old. I don't think this holds enough water for someone who is 14. I don't see why a 14 year old can't decide what they want. 

Because their brains are not nearly as fully developed as it should be to make such decisions. 

 

39 minutes ago, Enlightement said:

We do this to protect kids. Yet you aren't sure what exactly you're protecting kids from by not allowing hormone treatment. You can separate invalid cases. That's not an argument. But there are kids who have obvious gender conflicts and they really want treatment for that. Why should their freedoms be sacrificed? 

Take that you out of that sentence and place an I in its place. Hormonal therapy, especially puberty blockers has vastly documented side effects, including lower bone density and potential sterility. I'm sure that kids shouldn't be taking them in the vast majority of cases. 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Israfil

[Juan]

@Enlightement give it a watch.