Is Peter Ralston Wrong About Enlightenment Not Being A State?

[Phil King]

In this interview, Ralston says that enlightenment is not a state or insight because those are all functions of mind. He says that enlightenment is simply becoming conscious of whats absolutely true and having direct consciousness of what consciousness/self is. From my experiences with psychedelics, it seems that I am enlightened in that state but come down to an unenlightened state when the psychedelic wears off. Has Ralston ever had experiences with psychedelics or was he just incredibly spiritually gifted to where he was able to get some form of permanent enlightenment with normal spiritual practices? I think Leo had answered a similar question earlier about Jed Mckenna saying that it wasnt a state but I was just curious if maybe Ralston meant something different here.

[Yimpa]

He may be enlightened. But no way is he AWAKE.

14 minutes ago, Phil King said:

I think Leo had answered a similar question earlier about Jed Mckenna saying that it wasnt a state but I was just curious if maybe Ralston meant something different here.

Fun fact: I can’t wink with my left eye in real life. I must be misunderstanding something here…

Edited April 30, 2023 by Yimpa

[Hojo]

I think enlightenment is not about reaching a higher state or different dimension its about keeping an eye on the prize and never losing focus on it. If you understand what consciousness is and you focus your attention on it you identify with it therefore becoming immortal and never losing yourself to a degree. Like if there was a mindwipe after you die  for your soul you wouldnt get mindwiped because you arent the mind you are hiding from a mind wipe in consciousness  in a sense or strengthening your spirit.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Hojo

[Salvijus]

It's possible to see the truth in multiple perspectives. 

You can see the truth that your eternal nature is not a state and it never changes, it remains the same under all conditions.

And you can also see the truth that you can reach higher levels of consciouness, energy, intensity etc.

Both views are true somehow.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Salvijus

[Yimpa]

6 minutes ago, Hojo said:

I think enlightenment is not about reaching a higher state or different dimension its about keeping an eye on the prize and never losing focus on it. If you understand what consciousness is and you focus your attention on it you identify with it therefore becoming immortal and never losing yourself to a degree.

You see, that is the core issue here. Enlightenment seekers are gung ho on making entire Reality fit into one convenient enlightened box that you need to maintain.

If your enlightened master says, “I’ll meet you at that place.”… you better have a giant broom of Infinite Love to smack them with!

 

[Yimpa]

5 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

It's best when you can see truth in multiple perspectives. 

It’s best best when you see truth in multiple and omniscient Perspective.

[CARDOZZO]

@Phil King

I’ve never seen anyone like Ralston in the matter of Consciousness/Enlightenment/Transformation.

Also Leo, McKenna and Wilber.

[Yimpa]

@CARDOZZO That’s the beauty of Reality. We are all communicating the same thing in different ways. Some more conscious than others. Others taller than others. 

Be careful not to make this an excuse to listen to any teacher blindly, though. It’s ultimately YOU who will AWAKEN. 

Spoiler: EVERYTHING

[Yimpa]

Just now, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

What's the difference?

Think of the USA. Now think of one state. That’s enlightenment.

AWAKE is the entire USA.

Don’t take this metaphor literally. But it’s a good pointer, my ego thinks ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

[OldManCorcoran]

I didn't find him very useful. Of course, nobody has ever been able to trigger ego death and infinity. Leo's videos are infinitely less important than being mid trip. No human sentence can touch the reality of being in the midst of something.

Whatever any wise sage claims, in the midst of a toad breakthrough, that supercedes their words in every single way. Anything contradictory is delusional, such is the authority of reality.

[Water by the River]

2 hours ago, Phil King said:

 From my experiences with psychedelics, it seems that I am enlightened in that state but come down to an unenlightened state when the psychedelic wears off. Has Ralston ever had experiences with psychedelics or was he just incredibly spiritually gifted to where he was able to get some form of permanent enlightenment with normal spiritual practices? I think Leo had answered a similar question earlier about Jed Mckenna saying that it wasnt a state but I was just curious if maybe Ralston meant something different here.

Hi Phil,

some ideas:

1) Does the real You/Reality/Infinite Consciousness possibly change? Not the appearance side, but the Absolute Subject, the Absolute Empty Abyss? Reality itself? Of course it can't. You are You. The Absolute Subject. You never changed, can't go anywhere. You are all there is, and ever can be. The appearance side is just an appearing imagined show, relative stuff, always changing. Not stable. And not really existing, just a mirage happeing in the True You.

2) If you fully know what you are, how can you loose that? It can solidify again if you loose the nondual/mere appearance state when the psychedelic wears off. But it doesn't have to. It can stay stable without psychdelics. And that can be done with transformative practices, mainly meditation, to become fully empty, no separate self left, that you ARE the whole infinite Reality outside of which nothing exists. And its not that you need to be a genetic freak or something, or ten years of facing the wall. With the right techniques, it is very doable.

3) Maybe "From my experiences with psychedelics, it seems that I am enlightened in that state but come down to an unenlightened state when the psychedelic wears off" is not the Enlightenment that Ralston is talking about? And all the other enlightened sages? Maybe the "enlightenment with psychedelics" is not the final thing, exactly because it wears off, and you can only have the full insight when you are fully empty, and zero filters of a separate self left/not transcended?

I know, many won't like this idea. And that only the full transcendence of the separate self finally ends suffering. And still, its only logical that to become the Totality of the Infinite Reality that You are, the separate self has to go... because IT IS SEPARATE and not the total nondual infinite Oneness of Absolute Reality.

Feel deeply into you heart: If you dont fully become what you already are, if you don't give up every filter of the separate self that cuts the infinite nondual reality in pieces, makes it solid, takes its luminostiy/mere groundless appearance/magic show character.... These separate self arisings still running when you got out of the psychedelic state are what solidifies your world again. And they were never fully gone in the psychedelic state. 

If you get this nondual mere appearance state sobre without psychedelics, then you are sure you have transcended and cut down the separate self arisings sufficiently and fast enough, else you wouldn't get that state that allows insight into Absolute Reality or the True You. And then its stable, you don't come out of it, it is always there. And you can also call that a state. But it is always accessible and present then, and you fully understand/know/Realize that  the Real You/Reality/Infinite Consciousness doesn't change, only what appears in it, the appearance side. So it is a certain paradoxon, but only before entering the Gateless Gate. Afterwards it is as clear as day, and everyone who has had that has used terms of IT being permanent and the final realization. When You know what You are, You know what you are and what Reality is. And that never changed and can't change. There can only be "confusing-arisings" in it, clouding the understanding and realization of what you are.

But when you can touch/understand the always eternally here Reality, everything changing and appearing seems more like a magic show, an illusion, just appearing, in that which you are that stays constant. Of course it is all nondual and essentially the same, but the appearance side is TEMPORARY/CHANGING/FLOW/ILLUSION, while the Real You/Fully Empty Subject/Abyss never changes. Because it is NOTHINGNESS, nothing specific at all, unchanging, Reality itself, the Empty Abyss of the Eye that can't see itself. Because it couldn't change. It is the only "thing" than never can change. It is Reality itself, fully empty, but with the potential to manifest itself as any show possible and marvel at its temporary illusion show. 

Water by the River

[r0ckyreed]

This has already been discussed on the forum.

[Breakingthewall]

I think that everything is a state. your mind is the infinite mind, only in an apparently finite state. all apparent limitations can be broken and access to an infinite state. It is the same mind, it is a different state.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Breakingthewall

[Moksha]

Not only is enlightenment a state, but there are infinite cities within it.

Just because it borders the coast doesn't make it any more the ocean than Iowa is.

[Yimpa]

3 hours ago, Moksha said:

Not only is enlightenment a state, but there are infinite cities within it.

Just because it borders the coast doesn't make it any more the ocean than Iowa is.

Heh, Iowa does sound like ayahuasca, though!

[BlessedLion]

It's safe to assume that Ralston got nothing wrong. Read his books and you'll know. None of you are even close to as conscious as him 

[Osaid]

Ralston explains that "states" are relative, and that enlightenment is not relative, it is absolute, so it is not a state, by his definition. You have to decipher how Ralston uses these words here, and I think he makes it pretty clear. Ralston tends to be very picky about using relative terms like "love" "insight" and "states" because these terms all get tangled up in human stories about "not being enlightened" and "reaching truer states" and it can mislead people.

Furthermore, he says enlightenment is becoming conscious of what is true and what is always true. 

If enlightenment is always true, then calling it a state implies that it is possible for some sort of contrasting state which isn't true to exist, which might be why he insists it is not a state. If something is always true, calling it a state that has to be achieved or found somewhere else is somewhat redundant, because it implies you are in a state where truth does not exist, which cannot be the case if enlightenment and truth are absolute.


 

[Water by the River]

1 hour ago, Osaid said:

Furthermore, he says enlightenment is becoming conscious of what is true and what is always true. 

If enlightenment is always true, then calling it a state implies that it is possible for some sort of contrasting state which isn't true to exist, which might be why he insists it is not a state. If something is always true, calling it a state that has to be achieved or found somewhere else is somewhat redundant, because it implies you are in a state where truth does not exist, which cannot be the case if enlightenment and truth are absolute.

Beautiful summary.

Please allow me some musings on the topic....

What You/Reality/Truth are is/was/will be always the case, can not be different or change.

And yet "IT" can be clouded over, like the sun can be clouded over

• with clouds of separate self arisings (the illusion of being something different than what one really is - Nothingness, but with potential for sentience, and the whole infinite field, nondual.
  • "We are that reality. When you understand this, you see that you are nothing, and being nothing, you are everything. That is all. Kalu Rinpoche").
• looking at a solidified (not just mere luminous groundless appearances) and external (out there, not nondual) world.
• The sensations of "solidity, not luminous/mere appearance" and "external, not nondual" are specific arisings that can arise in the opening of Reality that one really is, but they don't have to. If they don't, IT/Truth becomes much clearer (mere appearance show hovering in eternal Nothingness).

This "on top added" clouding over (separate self arisings) can go, can be understood, seen through.

• The thought arisings of the person move in You like for example the wind. Arising, but just something happening in Big You/Reality.
• Then, one has always access to the real state of things (what is always true).

Blowing away/seeing through all cloud-arisings of the separate self via certain meditation methods over the years blows away all clouds.

• Psychedelics are generating a hurricance to blow away most/nearly all of these clouds at once, but it leaves one not able to blow them fully away afterwards without the hurricance.
• Psychedelics are wonderful tools to get previews and explore the Multiverse/manifested reality, and combining them with efficient meditation methods to see through all (!) separate self arisings  is the best of both worlds.

Enlightenment has been defined as realizing/deeply understanding/awakening to that the separate self doesn't exist, has never existed, and will never exist. It just seems to exist, like a clouding over of the sun, an illusion, seeing the rope as a snake for example.

• The sun in this metaphor is what would always be true, always be the case. The Eternal Enlightenment that is always here, the Buddha-Nature at the core of every being, who are already enlightended but don't know it. The sun/IT  has always existed, always exists, and will always exist.
• The clouding over is temporary, a temporary state, and can be removed. The clouding over state (sun not visible, but still "there" would be a state with no Enlightenment) corresponds to an unenlightened mind-stream, with duality and solidified "external" world present. 
  • But that doesn't make ones True Nature/Eternal Enlightenment a temporary state. Ones True Nature/Original Enlightenment/Buddha Nature is more fundamental than any state in it, clouded over or not. 
  • And if one fully realizes ones eternal empty True Nature, the eternal aspect dominates in ones being. It is more fundamental than the passing and changing illusory show/river of appearances. The eternal unmanifest empty side of Nothingness is more fundamental than the flowing river of manifestation/appearances/"Appearance side of manifest consciousness,->Szyper, Infinite Consciousness".
• The clouding over can be temporary be removed by a "hurricane/strong wind" of psychedelics, removing 95% of the clouds. When the hurricane/wind is gone, it snips back to being clouded over, and you can't see the last 5% of clouds while tripping (fully empty, but some individuality still left), because the sun already looks very visible. 
  • And exactly these last traces of individuality are what makes it cloud over later again. And these last 5% can make a lot of trouble, because they make you think you already removed all separate self arisings... here is where it can get a very interesting show, involving terrestrials/heaven and earth/and maybe even some extraterrestrials. Possibly sometimes even a case for these gentlemen, with the flash-thing...
• The clouds can be removed fully by seeing through them all, normally done by hundreds of hours in these states. Then, you can realize yourself to be the sun fully. 
  • And the difference between 5% clouds remaining and 0% is quantum. Or a deep deep shift in Identity, which remains. Understanding what one really is, and realizing it to ones core. A cloudless sky with only the sun is something  fundamentally different than a sky with 95% sun and some clouds remaining.
• That last shift is certain. One can not miss the last shift. On all other Awakenings/Enlightenments before you are not sure if they are final. It feels like, but one is not sure. This one is. 
  • If one has to convince oneself that "this" is it, or decide on it, or if anybody/anything can shake one/gaslight one, well.... it is not it. 
  • Which is logical, because if one knows what one is one knows what one is, and if one is not completely sure, then one doesn't know what one is.  
  • And it brings the potential for psychological suffering to stop, because psychological suffering IS a big building block of the separate self arising Gestalt/structure. And if one fully see through that (the last 5% of the clouds), one gains the potential to literally cut off these suffering-arisings. If one fully knows what one really is (like in "no doubt possible"), and one  can cut off all separate-self psychological-suffering-arisings, who or what could lead you to doubt or gaslight you?

Hope I didn't lecture too much.  Maybe some find that helpful. For those that don't, please don't do the bear manoeuvre shown in the link in the signature, listen to the "Blackeyes Peas, Where is the love" video, and enjoy the show. The point of the ride (separate self show) is the ride, and if that is still attractive, let's continue the ride... 

Selling Water by the River

@UnbornTao: Can't help it ....   

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Water by the River said:

Enlightenment has been defined as realizing/deeply understanding/awakening to that the separate self doesn't exist, has never existed, and will never exist. It just seems to exist, like a clouding over of the sun, an illusion, seeing the rope as a snake for example.

 

that is a negative definition of enlightenment which is true, but there is also a positive definition, which is realizing what you really are, for the first time in your human life. In my opinion it is extremely difficult for this to happen without psychedelics, and there is a lot of discussion here and people will soon come to say that this is a hoax, etc.

enlightenment is to become infinite, without a trace of any limit, and to recognize yourself as the eternal that always is, what you forgot but it is totally obvious and always was and will be, and after that to realize that the relative in what you live is really the absolute, exactly, without the slightest difference. So I think that it can be said that they are states. as you have explained well, cloudy, limited, and unlimited state. But it's always you, the existence.

 

[Water by the River]

28 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

that is a negative definition of enlightenment which is true, but there is also a positive definition, which is realizing what you really are, for the first time in your human life. In my opinion it is extremely difficult for this to happen without psychedelics, and there is a lot of discussion here and people will soon come to say that this is a hoax, etc.

enlightenment is to become infinite, without a trace of any limit, and to recognize yourself as the eternal that always is, what you forgot but it is totally obvious and always was and will be, and after that to realize that the relative in what you live is really the absolute, exactly, without the slightest difference. So I think that it can be said that they are states. as you have explained well, cloudy, limited, and unlimited state. But it's always you, the existence.

Beautiful post, agree on all of that.   

Enlightenment is

• both a state (Understanding/Realization and certain energetic nondual/mere groundless appearance state)
• but also a waking up/removing the clouds to the Reality/True Self/Enlightenment that is always here, that is Absolute Reality itself, and when called Buddha Nature the core of each sentient being, and knowing that to have always been the case.

Like with many pointers to the Absolute, the pointers highlight only one side of the coin, like Advaita True Self/Absolute Consciousness (positive definition), and Buddhist Madhyamaka Emptiness (negative definition). And in Absolute Reality, these paradoxes collapse, since they all point to the same Reality/"thing/referent". Absolute Reality contains the pointers. Once realized, there is no paradox or contradiction left, it makes fully sense and couldn't be any different. It doesn't stay paradoxical.

I also believe (but I can't proove it) there is a kind of "Endohuasca-System",

• that when one is
  • (1) proficient enough with the separate self arisings (like knowing them, even the most subtle ones, like a separate self feeling/sensation/localization/concept/... ), and
  • (2) is fast enough in spotting them/cutting them off (since they arise much much faster than normal thinking, like maybe 20-30 arisings of separate self sensations per second, while thinking "against" these arisings brings maybe maximum 1-3 thoughts elaborated per second, if at all).
    • that explains why you can't "think" your way to shutting off the separate self, thinking is just too slow. It has to be automized, Nonmeditation Yoga-style of the Mahamudra-System.
    • Spotting them when you know their nature as Emptiness/Consciousness/Suchness immedeately cuts them off, at least with some proficiency in the Skill of Reckognition of the Mahamudra-System (see Pointing Out the Great Way, Brown).
      • funny thing is: When one tries to do that, the emerging of thoughts frequency gets much faster. Like a protection-mechanism of the Illusion/Maya. When I learned to finally be fast enough and got faster than this increased speed of thought-emergence, and didn't get distracted or "captured" anymore by the high-speed-emergence-flow of thoughts, the following happened:
  • (1) and (2) trigger some kind of "Endohuasca-System" in the body, which removes the solidity of the visual field, makes it increasingly luminous/hologram/mere appearance/groundess floating in Infinite Nothingness, like Psychedelics do. And it also bring a lot of bliss.
    • https://dmtquest.org/endohuasca-magic/

That was at least my experience:

• first major parts of the separate self Gestalt Structure/emerging thoughts go,
• then the visual field/world becomes nondual/luminous/mere appearance hovering in Infinite Nothingness
• and with that as a basis, more and more subtle separate self elements/clouds go
• and all of that in a funny merry-go-around (meditation experience/state -> Realization/Understanding -> Deeper meditation experience/Luminosity/... -> Deeper Realization/Understanding of more subtle separate self element, ....) , like a positive feedback-loop, slowly burning away the clouds.
  • Which can sound maybe harsh or bad or unpleasant, but it is exactly the opposite. Somewhere along the path it was learned that these separate-self arisings are to a large part all the unpleasant stuff, suffering, dissatisfaction,... , and that evaporated as well.
  • And while resting in a very mindful, empty state, when the mind-stream starts getting nondual (and even before that), I learned that I can produce my own good emotions/states, like directly getting the bliss from within. That disabled then slowly all the separate self arisings that didn't feel well. So actually a lovely process, best thing that has ever happened to me. In the beginning, its difficult, but at some point it becomes quite pleasant and continues by itself. Pushing the rock over the mountain-pass, and then it rolls downhill without effort.

Please excuse the length of my musings.  

Selling Water by the River