Is Peter Ralston Wrong About Enlightenment Not Being A State?

[Salvijus]

18 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

The question would be, why this actual experience seems finite? How? That's very difficult to understand. I saw in a psychedelic trip that the thing is that now and always the infinity is the case, but by a trick of, shall we say, engineering, we are limited to something like blinders on a donkey that only lets us see exactly this. if you remove the blinders, with a psychedelic for example, infinity manifests itself. so right now the infinite is infinitely fragmented. but is this so? who knows, probably not. 

It has something to do with ego i believe.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Water by the River]

7 hours ago, FlyingMan said:

 As long as you want to learn FROM him, he's your best friend.  But criticize him, or point out his self-deception, and you're the asshole.  I think it's pretty damn obvious though.

15 minutes ago, Moksha said:

Only on the surface. We have disagreed from time to time, and Leo has fired a few shots, but deep down he knows his own demons and respects sincerity.

I have a similiar feeling as Moksha.

There are a lot of teachings in the spiritual marketplace that declare halfway up the mountain as the peak (a lot of Buddhism also, I would estimate a much larger share than 90%), and he had to distance himself against these teachings. Like with the no-person/no-self stuff (and even Nonduality is often misunderstood, and can be achieved way before final realization) that doesn't go all the way. Its tricky trick business, and putting the finer points in language is a daunting taks, since the state/stage descriptions are often used differently.

So lets see if he can translate his realizations and awakenings into a stable basis. I hope he gets stable access to the bliss&love of his True Core. He would more than deserve it.

And lets hope the movies they will once make about the first really serious psychonauts and the first encounters with non-human alien intelligences (fascinating book on that with some working hypothesis on these topics, like DMT-IV: Reality Switch Technologies: Psychedelics as Tools for the Discovery and Exploration of New Worlds, Gallimore) will include a happy ending, at least when it comes to Leo.

Water by the River

[Water by the River]

19 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

That's clever. But let me challenge this.

Who observes that the coffee table has vanished? There's somone else observing the coffee table coming into existence and then dissapearing.

I would agree that observer and the objects of observation are ultimately one, but not the same. Bc if it was the same, then if a coffee table was to vanish, YOU would vanish with it. 

> The separate self or witness vanishes exactly with it. Absolute Reality is initially unaware of itself of no appearance/coffee table arises, but IT has got the potential for sentience, when some appearance shows up. Without appearance imagined/manifesting, NOTHINGNESS.

17 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

I would agree that a small part of you vanishes when a coffee table vanishes. But your essental nature never vanishes no matter how many objects in the universe were to vanish. Hence that formless nothingness would fit the definition of absolute the best and everything else is also you, but it's your secondary nature, not primary.

Yes, your Essential Nature, or Infinite Reality itself can never vanish, but it can be unaware of itself if no appearance arises/is being imagined. Nothingness. Not nothing, but a Nothingness initially unaware of itself if nothing arises, but with Infinite Potential to manifest/imagine any possible show within itself.

I agree with Hawal that Nothingness is a very good pointer, since you can not associate any image/appearance/attribute with it, since any  image/appearance/attribute would be an arising within it. Neti Neti. The empty Abyss of the True Subject,  fully nondual when a coffee table shows up, watching itself. . I know, sounds nuts... , but feels wonderful.

And when there are no separate self arisings, the coffee table watches itself. And later, when a human thought stream is needed for practical daily business, that appears also within you. But doesn't-need to.

• True You is still there when the coffee table watches itself, no human identities necessary. Optionally these can be imagined, but the True You is fully fine without them.
• And any scary-reaction-arisings to this state of things are just protection-mechanism of the illusion/game, also arising in You.

Please excuse when I started rambling with these musings again...

Selling Water by the River.

 

 

[Salvijus]

58 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

Yes, your Essential Nature, or Infinite Reality itself can never vanish, but it can be unaware of itself if no appearance arises/is being imagined. Nothingness. Not nothing, but a Nothingness initially unaware of itself if nothing arises, but with Infinite Potential to manifest/imagine any possible show within itself.

I agree with Hawal that Nothingness is a very good pointer, since you can not associate any image/appearance/attribute with it, since any  image/appearance/attribute would be an arising within it. Neti Neti. The empty Abyss of the True Subject,  fully nondual when a coffee table shows up, watching itself. . I know, sounds nuts... , but feels wonderful.

This is pretty clean actually. 

Let me try putting it this way tho. Primordial non physical energy capable of awareness is there  alone without any objects of observation and has nothing to observe. Then non physical energy takes a form of physical manifestaion, a grosser form of the same energy. Now nonphysical energy is observing other grosser manifestations of itself. Hense existence is observing itself.  I would agree with this kind of framing

But perhaps primordial non physical energy is the most intelligent form of energy capable of being aware alone. This I'm unsure of. But i intuit it is so.

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Moksha]

41 minutes ago, Water by the River said:

I agree with Hawal that Nothingness is a very good pointer, since you can not associate any image/appearance/attribute with it, since any  image/appearance/attribute would be an arising within it. Neti Neti. The empty Abyss of the True Subject

As I see it, absolute reality is within everythingness (the cosmos) and nothingness (the void, or infinite potential). However, the cosmos and the void themselves are extreme dualities of the dream. The absolute is beyond the dream. It is beyond existence/nonexistence, beyond form/formless, and beyond imagination/emptiness.

It is incomprehensible, indescribable, and nameless and it is the absolute essence of it all. It has aspects (love, seamlessness, immutability, timelessness) but it is beyond attributes.

[CARDOZZO]

This is what happens when enlightenment blows your mind

BOOOOM of Sacred Energy  

Tbh, YYH is awesome! 

[Salvijus]

@Water by the River i think i can make it less confusing and propose this kind of framing.

non physical energy (nothingness) is observing physical energy (coffee table). Ultimately it's just energy observing different manifestations of itself. But it's the primordial formless energy that is observing the manifest formful manifestaion, not the other way around.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

5 minutes ago, CARDOZZO said:

This is what happens when enlightenment blows your mind

BOOOOM of Sacred Energy  

Tbh, YYH is awesome! 

Lol

 

[Moksha]

10 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

But it's the primordial formless energy that is observing the manifest formful manifestaion, not the other way around.

Or another way of putting it, the cosmos comes and goes, but the unmanifested is beyond the form and formless states. The mystics rarely go to this level, but for example:

This multitude of beings is created and destroyed again and again in the succeeding days and nights of Brahma. But beyond this formless state there is another, unmanifested reality, which is eternal and is not dissolved when the cosmos is destroyed.

[Salvijus]

2 minutes ago, Moksha said:

This multitude of beings is created and destroyed again and again in the succeeding days and nights of Brahma. But beyond this formless state there is another, unmanifested reality, which is eternal and is not dissolved when the cosmos is destroyed.

Nice

[Breakingthewall]

23 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

@Water by the River i think i can make it less confusing and propose this kind of framing.

non physical energy (nothingness) is observing physical energy (coffee table). Ultimately it's just energy observing different manifestations of itself. But it's the primordial formless energy that is observing the manifest formful manifestaion, not the other way around.

it would be better to say that reality is a mind that can imagine everything. what the mind imagines is the same as the mind, that is, it is a form of the mind. If the mind does not imagine anything, it is nothing, but it is. it's you. 

then, the absolute is you. immutable because it is always you. mutable because you constantly change shape

[Breakingthewall]

21 minutes ago, Moksha said:

This multitude of beings is created and destroyed again and again in the succeeding days and nights of Brahma. But beyond this formless state there is another, unmanifested reality, which is eternal and is not dissolved when the cosmos is destroyed.

Again, duality

[Moksha]

3 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Again, duality

The absolute is beyond duality, despite the appearance and disappearance of the dream within it.

[Salvijus]

45 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

it would be better to say that reality is a mind that can imagine everything. what the mind imagines is the same as the mind, that is, it is a form of the mind. If the mind does not imagine anything, it is nothing, but it is. it's you. 

then, the absolute is you. immutable because it is always you. mutable because you constantly change shape

This is beautifully put. I would remove the word absolute here tho. And leave it like this:

"You are always you, during all changes you always remain you."

Then if we want to distinguish between different parts of You/The Mind we can say:

1. There is You/The Mind which is the Source,

2. and the objects that You/The Mind is imagining.

At this point we can begin to label what is primary and what is secondary. Imagined objects would be secondary, source of all imagination is primary.

And ultimately they are one and the same.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

Edit. Nvm...

Edited May 2, 2023 by Salvijus

[Salvijus]

1 hour ago, Breakingthewall said:

it would be better to say that reality is a mind that can imagine everything. what the mind imagines is the same as the mind, that is, it is a form of the mind. If the mind does not imagine anything, it is nothing, but it is. it's you. 

then, the absolute is you. immutable because it is always you. mutable because you constantly change shape

This is actually beutiful. It is cracking my brains.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Salvijus said:

This is actually beutiful. It is cracking my brains.

I think the difficult thing to realize is to understand how movement occurs, what is the dream, that's is, what is the reality.

the formless mind is the infinite potential, but what about the form? here is the beauty. form is the absolute being the absolute. understanding this movement, its depth, is the beauty of this work. The absolute understanding itself.  That's why I think Leo is right and is many steps ahead of anyone, but who knows

[Yimpa]

4 hours ago, Moksha said:

Or another way of putting it, the cosmos comes and goes, but the unmanifested is beyond the form and formless states.

Nice!!

3 hours ago, Salvijus said:

This is actually beutiful. It is cracking my brains.

Ha! Reminds me of these lyrics from the song “Why Bother?” by Weezer:

It's a crying shame I'm all alone
Not with you, nor her, nor anyone
Won't you knock me on my head?
Crack it, open, let me outta here

[Moksha]

50 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

the formless mind is the infinite potential, but what about the form?

Have you considered that there is absolute unchanging reality beyond the transitory form and formless states within the dream? Whether it is the expansive cosmos in all its glory, or the unfathomably dense particle following the cosmic crunch, it is all still dream. What is beyond the dream?

[Water by the River]

4 hours ago, Moksha said:

As I see it, absolute reality is within everythingness (the cosmos) and nothingness (the void, or infinite potential). However, the cosmos and the void themselves are extreme dualities of the dream. The absolute is beyond the dream. It is beyond existence/nonexistence, beyond form/formless, and beyond imagination/emptiness.

It is incomprehensible, indescribable, and nameless and it is the absolute essence of it all. It has aspects (love, seamlessness, immutability, timelessness) but it is beyond attributes.

Beautiful description. We agree here.

Some "technical" musings:

At some points, all the pointers (necessarily including duality) collapse. The Reality manifesting them contains them all. What a good pointer can do is shut up the thinking mind and make it rest in suchness, so that the Absolute can reveal itself. To get the clouds away from the sun.

I personally like the pointer "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arising is showing up" 

• where the Nothingness is described in such a way points to a specific state (like Nirvikalpa, Deep Sleep, or Cessation). The Absolute is (by definition) still present there. As Nothingness.
• And I like it because  "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arising are showing up"  clarifies what is more fundamental: Not the  the full illusion-clear-light-show of imagined arisings ("the world"), but the Nothingness "beneath" it. The Absolute essence of manifestation, nondual, Nothingness. The show can disappear, the Nothingness/Absolute not.
• this "Nothingness initially unaware of itself when no imagined arisings are showing up" which can also be called the Void or Infinite Potential, (as you do), is a state on the extreme end of the dream, a duality compared to the full show going on, as you write.
• The nice thing how Halaw (God is Nothingness) uses Nothingness as Absolute is: He describes the Nothingness as present throughout, also while the Dream-Show is active, as the essence of all appearance. Or the Absolute.
  • Halaw uses Nothingness as synonym for the Absolute.
  • Absolute sounds a bit like a thing, although its philosophical definition and the way you use the pointer/signifier pointing to its referent (Absolute Infinite Reality itself , the One without a second)  is absolutely correct.
    • The advantage of Nothingness when used for the Absolute is: you can not mistake it with some kind of object, some kind of "thing".
    • But as you correctly write, the Absolute it is neither existence nor non-existence, and because of that neither an Absolute that can be confused with an existing thing, nor Nothingness which can be confused with non-existence, capture Absolute Reality fully.

And the Absolute (or Nothingness in the usage of Halaw) is, as you write,  "incomprehensible, indescribable, and nameless and it is the absolute essence of it all" [bold markings by me].

Nondual, Oneness, Infinite, One without a second. And Nothingness/Absolute as "its" essence.

"The absolute is beyond the dream. It is beyond existence/nonexistence, beyond form/formless, and beyond imagination/emptiness." Madhyamaka-style, the Middle Path.

 

And how to conclude all the musings above? With a pointer that is maybe even better than Absolute or Nothingness? A pointer which at the same time makes the most sense after having passed the Gateless Gates? So with a nice Koan, "technically" the most precise pointer, but a pointer that can be pretty useless before the Gateless Gate.

• before the Gateless Gate, a Koan is mainly a concentration object,
• after the Gateless Gate a Koan is the technically most precise pointer to the Reality that contains all pointers/signifiers pointing towards "It".

Here it comes:

“An ancient pond/ a frog jumps in/ the sound of water.” 

Water by the River

PS: Maybe in the next life, I am done writing about pointers, and only stutter little Koans and smile